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joshua_b
Guest
I’m still hung up on this…does anyone have the means to clarify this for me ?
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junk
Guest
The elect are by definition those who will obtain salvation. They are the ones who have been chosen by God and through His grace will be saved. Protestants often believe that they can know if they are among the elect. One either is or isn’t one of the elect through God’s sovereign will.
Matthew 24:22-31 - you’ll find the word elect in there three times. Sometimes it’s translated as “chosen ones,” and that’s what it means.
allischalmers also referred to vessels of honour and dishonour (2 Tim 2:20, Rom 9:21), the vessels of honour usually understood to be referring to the elect.
It’s to do with predestination. We Catholics believe in predestination too, but not in the same way that Calvinists or some Baptists do. There are significant differences, two of which are that we don’t believe we can know our election and that we affirm free will more strongly than many Protestants, and especially Calvinists.
These helped me to understand one of the possible Catholic views, so if you’re interested:** 1 2 3**
Matthew 24:22-31 - you’ll find the word elect in there three times. Sometimes it’s translated as “chosen ones,” and that’s what it means.
allischalmers also referred to vessels of honour and dishonour (2 Tim 2:20, Rom 9:21), the vessels of honour usually understood to be referring to the elect.
It’s to do with predestination. We Catholics believe in predestination too, but not in the same way that Calvinists or some Baptists do. There are significant differences, two of which are that we don’t believe we can know our election and that we affirm free will more strongly than many Protestants, and especially Calvinists.
These helped me to understand one of the possible Catholic views, so if you’re interested:** 1 2 3**
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joshua_b
Guest
That’s a good start…what IS the predominant Baptist theology on Predestination ?
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rtconstant
Guest
The dominant view? The dominant view would be to deny it since the dominant baptist movement is the SBC which typically does not hold to predestination since most SBC believe that salvation is “general” or open to all. They come back to Calvin though in terms of security by believing in OSAS.
I’ve known many Independant Baptists though that believe in predestination and they typically hold the Calvinist view.
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woodyww
Guest
Where I live in SE Texas, one Southern Baptist Church will believe in predestination. Another one down the street will NOT believe in predestination. It all depends on the “opinion” being preached from the pulpit. And yes I did say the “church down the street”. In my little town of about 3000 people there are 7 Southern Baptist Church’s. There are also several “nondenominational” churches that express some sort of SBC theology. They all universally believe in the security of the believer(OSAS).
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rtconstant
Guest
Interesting. I’ve never known an SBC to back predestination. Though to be honest OSAS is actually based on an assumption of predestination. It goes back to the difference between the Particular Baptists (predestination, OSAS) and General Baptists (Salvation offered universally but no OSAS). Most SBC split the difference. Still I’ve noticed that they do a lot of things different in Texas
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woodyww
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Well of course now here in Texas we have the Southern Baptist Convention, the Baptist Convention of Texas, and the Texas Baptist Convention. I don’t know what all the splits mean. I think some has to do with conservative vs liberal theology, some to do with missions. I think their latest bone of contention is whether “speaking in tongues” should be taught at Baptist seminaries. Then as I said in my previous post we have a copious amount of “nondenoms” which are in fact staffed with Baptist trained preachers that teach some kind of lukewarm diluted “feel good” “seeker oriented” theology.Interesting. I’ve never known an SBC to back predestination. Though to be honest OSAS is actually based on an assumption of predestination. It goes back to the difference between the Particular Baptists (predestination, OSAS) and General Baptists (Salvation offered universally but no OSAS). Most SBC split the difference. Still I’ve noticed that they do a lot of things different in Texas
I thank God daily for finding the Catholic Church with its Sacred Scripture, Teaching Magesterium, and Apostolic Tradition which keep it from error in all areas of faith and morals. I have found my rock and his name is Peter!!
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allischalmers
Guest
Hi
I belong to a GARBC church.
The problem I have with the altar call and sinners prayer is that lot of times it is does in an very emotional environment. I have heard from people in other churches of people who walk to the altar and say the sinners prayer and they are there at church for a short time, but then they are no where to be seem.
When this happens they send their outreach team to visit them and it offen turns out that they want no more to do with God and the church.
Then I know of people that have said the sinner prayer and and were true Christians. But I do not think that they were saved by saying the sinners prayer. God saves them by the hearing of the Word before they said the sinners prayer.
That being said no pastor in my Baptist ch urch has ever given an altar call that I can remember. However they have made statements ant the end of a service like “if someone has any questions about our church or salvation they can go to one of our counciling rooms and soneone will be there that they cam talk too.”
forever Baptist
allischalmers
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heisenburg
Guest
This statement HIGHLY disturbs me…
Though i mean no disrespect, are you implying that God has selected people to go to Hell? To say God selected only certain people to go to Heaven by default means he selected certain people to also go to hell. If you believe one, you HAVE to believe the other
No where in the bible does it say that God created people to go to hell.
Also, you say that if someone is truly ‘saved’ they will know.
If by this you mean that you can tell by the way someone ‘feels’ again, this is contrary to scripture. Scripture says you will be comforted by the knowledge that if you do what Christ says you will be saved… It doesn’t say you will get a warm fuzzy feeling which is what I often hear.
If you mean that you can tell based on how they live, testing yourself against scripture, etc… No Problem… that is basically a Catholic Understanding. The problem then comes that this obviously cant be used because everyone I’ve ever known that believes in OSAS will say that if after 50 years of “good service” if they fall at the end… “well they were never a Christian to begin with” This means that you CANT test yourself against scripture, and that in and of itself is against scripture. You are then forced to either believe that
- You have to go off of Feeling, which is anti-biblical because it depends on what the Heart feels. But the bible says that the heart cannot be trusted and can be decietful
OR - There really and truly is nothing you can do no matter how good or bad, how well you follow the commandments… God either choice you or he didnt, and that is also Anti-Biblical.
He didnt say nothing, God will select you if he wants. Neither did he say… Just believe and you will feel it in your heart… He said Keep the Commandments, and Follow Him.
Further more. Paul says (as well as the gospels) that we must endure to the end if we want salvation.
- Why endure if we are already saved
and - Why Endure if our ‘election’ isn’t up to anything we do
In Christ
J
joshua_b
Guest
This is all very foreign theology to me. I’m having an almost impossible time trying to figure out this seemingly confounded principle.
God’s “elect” are saved by God allowing those elect hearing the Word (before ever saying the sinners prayer), but if they do not “profess” then they can not be saved ? And, even though salvation is open to everyone, only God can initiate our being saved, and God will initiate the act of salvation with only those that He “elects”???:whacky: :ehh: :whacky: :ehh:
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Sean_Boyle
Guest
Let me get this straight…
God alone allows them to hear the word? The person has no say in being saved?
Doesn’t a person need to understand the word, all of it, to determine if they believe it or not. That would take several years to learn all of it, wouldn’t it?
What happens if they die before they understand all of the word or enough to believe it?
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sandusky
Guest
Finally???
Protestants have been battling theological liberalism and varying forms of easy believism within their ranks since the early years of the last century, and strongly beginning in the ‘20’s with the liberal movement at Princeton, and continuing up to the present day.
A very few things for reading:
Defending the Faith: J. Gresham MacHen and the Crisis of Conservative Protestantism in Modern America.
Machen’s Warrior Children
The Gospel According to Jesus
By the way, I had never heard of a sinner’s prayer, but I prayed one on my own, and the Lord heard; personally, I would never discount, nor discourage any unbeliever from begging God to save him in His mercy and grace; rather, I tell them to pray to God, and beg him to open your eyes.
A study of prayer in scripture reveals that in some way I don’t understand, prayer moves God’s will to act. That is why believers are encouraged to pray without ceasing.
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Marquette
Guest
The whole chapter of Romans 9 that talks about vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy is talking about JEWS and GENTILES. God sums it up in verses 25 and 26 by saying, “I will call those who were not My people, ‘My people,’ and her who was not beloved, 'beloved.” “And it shall be that in the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ there they shall be called sons of the Living God.”
And just in case anyone is wondering what kind of vessel they are, this is answered in 2 Timothy 2:20,21 “Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. THEREFORE, if a man cleanses himself from these things, HE WILL BE A VESSEL FOR HONOR, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.” And you can read to the end of the chapter if you want to see what “things” you should cleanse your vessel from–lusts, foolish and ignorant speculations, quarrels etc.
BTW, I was raised in a Conference Baptist church and later a GARB, both of which did give altar calls, and I believe OSAS is a huge deception that is not scriptural.
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sandusky
Guest
Are you implying a corporate salvation, as opposed to individual salvation, and a corporate damnation, as opposed to individual damnation?
If so, then only one corporate group will be saved, and the other one will be damned.
According to you, which are the vessels of wrath (the ones who will be damned), Jews, or Gentiles?
And, which are the vessels of mercy (the ones who will be saved), Jews, or Gentiles?
Now you seem to be promoting individual salvation.
What do you believe?
Depends on how OSAS is defined.
Antinomianism “OSAS”
• One need not persevere in faith to be saved.
• True believers can lose their faith.
• Those who lose their faith are saved, since they once believed.
“The believer who loses his faith is saved.”
Classic Calvinism “OSAS”
• One must persevere in faith to be saved.
• True believers cannot lose their faith, since it’s God’s gift.
• Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.
• Those who “lose” their faith never had it to begin with.
• God will preserve true believers and they will be saved.
“The ‘believer’ who loses his faith never really had it—or at least it wasn’t in Jesus.”
Antinomianism “OSAS” is unbiblical; the other is very biblical.
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Elzee
Guest
I’d say Mr. Gushee has taken the first step on his journey home, whether he knows it or not. Let us keep him in our prayers.
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allischalmers
Guest
Does a person have to understand everything in the Word of God before they can be saved? Of course not.
Paul said that the gospel of Jesus Christ is the power of God unto salvation. Understanding the gospel is all that is needed. And the gospel is that Jesus died, was buried and rose again the third day all for the sins of man.
forever Baptist
allischalmers
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Church_Militant
Guest
Good one allis…but not good enough.
Sinner’s prayers? There’s quit a few of them all through the Word of God. Do they take the form of what most n-Cs use in their evangelism? Nope.
The one that stands out in my mind is this one:
Luke 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not so much as lift up his eyes towards heaven; but struck his breast, saying: O god, be merciful to me a sinner.
It’s very very rare to see any n-Cs use that very scriptural prayer. I don’t recall ever hearing it in over 34 years outside the Catholic faith.
In my reading of the New Testament, I don’t recall anyone ever saying a “sinner’s prayer” (Think Ethiopian eunuch here) though I suppose that St. Dismas’ words (Luke 23:42) to Our Lord while he suffered beside him could very loosely be construed to be a sinner’s prayer, but again…in all my years outside the Catholic faith as a Southern Baptist and an Assembly of God deacon, I never heard that used either.
Now that I think of it that seems kinda odd for folks who told me all the time that they were all about the Bible.
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heisenburg
Guest
Good afternoon Allis…
I am curious about this statement…
Do you wish to imply that the only thing and absolutely only thing needed is to believe?
I pray this is not what you are saying, if it isn’t what you are saying please correct me so I can understand your view better…
In Christ
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allischalmers
Guest
To answer your question, Yes! The only thing one needs to do to be saved, is to truly believe the Gospel. There are over one hundred and fifty verses in the New Testament that us that all we need to do is believe.
born a sinner, Born again Baptist
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allischalmers
Guest
The problem here is what people call the sinners prayer. It offen go something like " Lord I know that I am a sinner and I receive Jesus into my heart for the forgiveness of sin’.
That is entirely different than someome praying asking God to save them.
As a leader in our church and talking to people about salvation I have never told someone to pray and ask Jesus to come into their heart. What I have told people is to pray and ask God to save them, and to keep on praying until He does and when He does they will know it.
Born a sinner, Born again a Baptist
allischalmers
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