Sinner's Prayer not Biblical Evangelical Admits

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A “good” protestant will just demand, “Show me which book it is not in!”
Funn you mention that when I was an evangelical they had a saying on what it takes for someone to be saved the saying was the Roman Road as their entier soteriology was quoting some selected passages from Romans and pretty much ignoring the books in the Bible that might interfere with thier out of context selctions dare I say the entire Roman Road conveniently and perhaps suspiciously left out the many teachings of Jesus on soteriology that might conflict with the once saved always saved and you don’t need works to be saved formula. The forumola left out key passages in Hebrews and James that explcitly contradict their forumula also. SO yeah its pretty much show me what I want to know and disregard what I don’t want to know in some of these fundamentalist and evangelical circles.
 
Finally an Evangelical who has the guts to admit the Sinner’s Prayer is not the Biblical way for salvation and pretty much calls out the evangelical tradition on this simplistic form of justification as being err unbiblical.
The guts?

Every well educated Christian knows that saying a “sinners prayer” does not justify…as if some sort of spell.

LOL, no.

Does the Catholic believe that they are justified merely by having water poured on their head in adult conversion?

Actually, many do.

Easy believism crosses all denominational lines.
 
The guts?

Every well educated Christian knows that saying a “sinners prayer” does not justify…as if some sort of spell.

LOL, no.

Does the Catholic believe that they are justified merely by having water poured on their head in adult conversion?

Actually, many do.

Easy believism crosses all denominational lines.
Actually for many evangelical Christians as the evidenced by the author a practicing evangelical , and myself (fromer evangelical) and by other converts here our theology was formed by our pastors and elders teaching us once we confessed and beleived per the sinners prayer yes you were once saved and always saved. This is not my imagination but the experience of many evangelicals and something many evangelicals will defend. You being oh so smart may not beleive such things but we aren’t as smart as your highness the well educated Christian. And yes many mainline protestants don’t beleive such things which is further witnesses by the mass amount of confusion and different opinions and theogies to be found in protestantism. You have a different view than an eveanglical or evangelicals differ from each other no news there.

The Bible says Baptism now saves you so yes we beleive Baptism saves you because the Bible says so but we unlike some evanglicals in their belief of once saved always saved we don’t beleive the process stops there and you can certainly fall back into sin and yes you need to repent those new sins once again and restore yourself in right relationship with him than can be damaged by the effects of mortal sin. For the adult convert repent and be baptized so your sins can be washed away and not the sinners prayer is the constant command in the Bible.

The Catholic Church clearly spells out we just don’t get baptized and go to heaven no matter what. In fact catholics were critisized by Luther and even by today’s protestant for having the audcity to say you must have a a faith life composed of works of love besides being baptized. We get critisized by non-cathoolics that you can’t simply be bpatized but must be a good person. So your trying to have it both ways in your criticism to you catholics beleive in easy beleifism and we have to do unecessary works? Now which is it you can’t it both ways now.

Every catholic I know however ignorant of their faith beleives that somewhere somehow you must be a good person to get to heaven so you simply don’t know what your talking about when you state cahtolics think you only need to baptized to get to heaven. ( I have never met such a catholic) This is false in my experience and shows me you have never talked to a practicing catholic in your life. Instead of spouting stereotypes of what you think a catholic thought on the matter is stick around here and well tell you.
 
Your kneejerk reaction to my post shows you did not really understand what I said.

Oh well…
 
Your kneejerk reaction to my post shows you did not really understand what I said.

Oh well…
Yeah I forgot your one of the few well educated Christians you keep talking about. Don’t worry I am not worthy to talk to such greatness. Talk to the other’s here worthy of your wisdom. Oh I forgot no one here could possibly know what your talking about as our just to intelligent for us mere mortals.
 
Yeah I forgot your one of the few well educated Christians you keep talking about. Don’t worry I am not worthy to talk to such greatness. Talk to the other’s here worthy of your wisdom. Oh I forgot no one here could possibly know what your talking about as our just to intelligent for us mere mortals.
Relax brother.

BTW, it is you who took the name “Wisdom,” not I.

Let me explain this way:

The article is not an attack on the doctrine of the perseverence of the saints. This is plainly not the author’s point.

It is an attack on easy believism and thus false conversion.

False converts are a bane for all Christian churches, whether Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox.

Does saying a few words called the “Sinners Prayer” justify the wicked if not with true faith and repentance?

No.

Is an adult convert to Catholicism justified before a Holy God when he has the water poured over his head?

Not necessarily.

What of the convert who has not true faith and repentance?

Are we to think that never happens?

No.

All our churches are full of false converts…pretenders.

Catholics are not immune to easy believism any more than anyone else. It just takes on a different form.

As to an evangelical having “the guts” to “admit” that true faith DOES, no. That is only your own sensationalism. My pastor alone speaks of this regularly.

There is no great secret you have uncovered, but it does get people to check out the thread…

…
 
Its about time that at least one evangelical admits this. But what impact does one single evangelical have? Very little if you ask me.
 
Atemi I think you have missed the point entirely the doctrine of once saved always saved via the sinners prayer promotes easy beliefism. It contributes to the human tendency that yes all christians including catholics may have. The catholic docrine however promotes carrying one cross daily and that one must work out one’s salvation. It is the indiviudal catholic who may deceive himself into easy beliefism and not the doctrine or promotion of the church however in some evangelical circles this easy beliefism is actually promoted. And yes its about time an evangelical challenged other evangelicals on this. I appaud the article and this evangelical christian.
 
Atemi I think you have missed the point entirely the doctrine of once saved always saved via the sinners prayer promotes easy beliefism.
The article is not addressing perseverence of the saints.

It is not even attacking any “sinner’s prayer.”

Maybe your point is to attack “OSAS,” but that is not the article’s point…though you would like it to.
It contributes to the human tendency that yes all christians including catholics may have. The catholic docrine however promotes carrying one cross daily and that one must work out one’s salvation.
And hope you make it.

I know.
It is the indiviudal catholic who may deceive himself into easy beliefism and not the doctrine or promotion of the church however in some evangelical circles this easy beliefism is actually promoted.
I never heard one non-Catholic Christian, of any serious caliber, teach that you can sin all you like and be saved.

I know Catholics that believe almost everyone, from just about every religion, will go to Heaven…as long as they are a “good person.”

Easy believism is rampant in your church, Wisdom. I was a Catholic. I know.

Pretending it is an evangelical problem is not very wise, IMV.
And yes its about time an evangelical challenged other evangelicals on this. I appaud the article and this evangelical christian.
About time?

This message is ancient…even in non-Catholic circles.

…
 
You have been truly been deceived my friend as St Paul says “WHo has bewitched you” None of this stuff is catholic teaching, you truly have misunderstood your faith and explains your conversion to the evangelical group.
Uh many non-catholics teach Once saved always saved and saved by faith alone and yes that means the abitlity to be in serious sin and still be saved. I think you should know Luther taught you could sin mortally and still be saved. Your inability to recognize this and proclaim all evangelicals agree with your particular understanding of the matter is truly niave as is most of your post. Its easy to be deceived by your own understanding my friend and it appears you have deceived by your own pride.
 
You have been truly been deceived my friend as St Paul says “WHo has bewitched you” None of this stuff is catholic teaching, you truly have misunderstood your faith and explains your conversion to the evangelical group.
What stuff is not Catholic teaching?

We are talking about the article: what it does say and what it does not.

Actually, by posting this thread and the conclusions you came away from the article with, it is you who misunderstands.
Uh many non-catholics teach Once saved always saved and saved by faith alone and yes that means the abitlity to be in serious sin and still be saved. I think you should know Luther taught you could sin mortally and still be saved.
Since all sins are mortal, he was right.

Praise God for that.

Are we to think that Christ did not die for “venial” sin?

No. We dare not.
Your inability to recognize this and proclaim all evangelicals agree with your particular understanding of the matter is truly niave as is most of your post. Its easy to be deceived by your own understanding my friend and it appears you have deceived by your own pride.
Yes, yes, yes. I’ve heard all these lines before.

Lash away if it makes you feel better.

Do you really believe all Catholics would agree with your understanding of things?

Then why the double standard and require that of me?

The article is a good one, but it surely is not any “admission” or any attack on the perseverence of the saints. You paint a picture the author did not.

…
 
Since all
sins are mortal, he was right.

Praise God for that.

Are we to think that Christ did not die for “venial” sin?

No. We dare not.And you cannot supply a Catholic source that teaches any such.
 
“If Jesus is to be believed, inheriting eternal life involves a comprehensive divine assessment at every step along our journey, not just at its inception.”
How does this square with “once saved always saved” or even with “faith alone”? Doesn’t this sound awfully “Catholic”?
Mediocrity and hypocrisy characterize the lives of many avowed Christians, at least in part because of our default answer to the salvation question. Anyone can, and most Americans do, “believe” in Jesus rather than some alternative savior. Anyone can, and many Americans sometimes do, say a prayer asking Jesus to save them. But not many embark on a life fully devoted to the love of God, the love of neighbor, the moral practice of God’s will, and radical, costly discipleship.
Which is pretty much why Catholics emphasize faith + hope + charity.
If it comes down to a choice between our habitual, ingrained ways of talking about salvation and what Jesus himself said when asked the question, I know what I must choose.
Me too. Which is precisely why the Catholic Church rejects the slogan “faith alone”.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:
 
Since all sins are mortal, he was right.
Atemi sez:

All sins are mortal. :tsktsk:
The Bible sez:
“If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.” (1 John 5:16-17)

Hope this helps. :tiphat:
 
Atemi sez:

All sins are mortal. :tsktsk:
The Bible sez:
“If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.” (1 John 5:16-17)

Hope this helps. :tiphat:
The Catholic understanding of Mortal Sin is wrong…the idea that someone can offend one time and they go to hell is not scriptural. The PRACTICING of this type of sin (1 Corinthians 6 and elsewhere) is what the Bible is talking about…

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 NAS95 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

When a person is wilfully sinning and enjoying it…are unrepentant over it…forever without fail, the root of that sin is UNBELIEF. You say they lose salvation through SIN…but it is unbelief. And we are told that those who fall into unbelief were never saved…

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NAS95 1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you,*** unless you believed in vain.***

1 John 2:19 NAS95 19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

2 John 1:9 NAS95 9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

Luke 8:18 KJV 18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

The people that fell in the wilderness…

Hebrews 3:17-19 KJV 17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Hebrews 4:1-3 KJV 1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

May God Help Us All.🙂
 
I believe that God has chosen some people to salvation and not others and I am not going to ask why. I fully trust that whatever God does is just and right.
You can’t back up this erroneous belief from the New Testament Alone. Jesus Christ died for everyone it is not up to us to tell Him He didn’t. All you must do is believe and practice your faith once you accept Him.
 
The Catholic understanding of Mortal Sin is wrong…the idea that someone can offend one time and they go to hell is not scriptural. The PRACTICING of this type of sin (1 Corinthians 6 and elsewhere) is what the Bible is talking about…
Linkowski sez:The Catholic Church doesn’t know what it’s talking about.The Catechism of the Catholic Church sez:

IV. THE GRAVITY OF SIN: MORTAL AND VENIAL SIN 1854 **Sins are rightly evaluated according to their gravity. The distinction between mortal and venial sin, already evident in Scripture,129 became part of the tradition of the Church. It is corroborated by human experience. **1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him. Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it. 1856 Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God’s mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation:
When the will sets itself upon something that is of its nature incompatible with the charity that orients man toward his ultimate end, then the sin is mortal by its very object . . . whether it contradicts the love of God, such as blasphemy or perjury, or the love of neighbor, such as homicide or adultery. . . . But when the sinner’s will is set upon something that of its nature involves a disorder, but is not opposed to the love of God and neighbor, such as thoughtless chatter or immoderate laughter and the like, such sins are venial.130​
1857 For a *sin *to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131 1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger. 1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin. 1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest. 1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God. (cont.)
 
1862 One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent. 1863 Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul’s progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God’s grace it is humanly reparable. "Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness."134
While he is in the flesh, man cannot help but have at least some light sins. But do not despise these sins which we call “light”: if you take them for light when you weigh them, tremble when you count them. A number of light objects makes a great mass; a number of drops fills a river; a number of grains makes a heap. What then is our hope? Above all, confession.135​
1864 "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven."136 There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit.137 Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:
 
Galatians 5:19-21 NAS95 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who*** practice ***such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Colossians 3:5-6 KJV 5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: 6 For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

People that do these things aer the “children of disobedience”…and they PRACTICE them.

So from the Catholic understanding, when someone misses church on Sunday, they will go to hell if they die because they committed mortal sin (listened to Father Mitch say this on the radio). This fosters a works-based salvation system.
 
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