Sinning on CAF?

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The second quality to be found in Francis application of Pauline teaching on admonitions is what we call the reparative admonition. This is the admonition that is given to the person who is already in the sin, which is different from the one who is headed for sin. To see how Paul means to be understood, it is good to go and read in the Rule of St. Francis the chapter on correction of the brothers. Francis points out several things.

The person who does the correcting must have the authority to correct. Francis understands that Paul does not declare a free for all on corrections. In another portion of his writings Paul reminds us that we are not judges and that he who judges, judges the law itself. He constantly reminds his audience that they are not Apostles. In other words, he reminds them to keep their place on the chain of command. Francis pulls all of this together and tells the brothers that the superior is the one who corrects. He never allowed any of the brothers to correct another brother. In fact, to this day, in the Franciscan family, this is a grave sin, even if the other brother is wrong. It is a grave sin of disobedience to the authority of the Holy Father (St. Francis, not the pope).

The reason why he established a hierarchy of correction was to avoid injustice, lack of charity, chaos, and abuse of others. It is very tempting to cross the line from correction to oppression. Francis understand that Paul does not mean for everyone to go around correcting. But everyone has a moral duty to make sure that a wrong is righted. Therefore, he tells his brothers that if they see a brother in need of correction they are to approach him in the most fraternal way. No one is to ever correct alone. You must always go with another brother. This makes sense. Its purpose to ensure that there is balance. If someone is too zealous, the other person can temper him or should. In addition, the person being corrected cannot accuse you of abuse, if there is a witness. The correction must always be done in private and with great charity.

Francis also tells us that a person who is in need of a severe correction must be taken to the proper authorities. Here is where things get interesting. Francis does not allow his brothers to correct serious violations. They are to take the concern to the superior and only the superior can correct those. Francis and Bernard of Clairveaux were so convinced of the importance of this hierarchy of authority that they approached the pope, independently, and asked that the Church adopt a rule that prohibits the correction of religious by anyone except their superior and the pope, not even a bishop can correct a religious. The pope saw the wisdom of this and it became an established policy in the Church to this day. The goal of the policy is not to avoid correcting or protect someone from correction. The goal is to protect the rights of the person. Some of us are very heavy handed in our corrections.

We see Francis apply Paul’s message with great prudence and wisdom. Correct with charity and always have someone present to help you do this with balance and great love. Secondly, always pray that God will allow you to feel love for the person whom you correct, so that anger and resentment do not cloud the picture. Third, in grave matters, do not take the law into your hands. Hand it over to the proper authorities. It is important to observe a chain of command in the family, the Church and the world. If we do not observe a chain of command we may create an environment where people are paranoid of each other for fear of being corrected all the time by everyone. Life in the Church should never be one where one is paranoid of hyper vigilant to avoid getting into trouble. Imagine living in a marriage where you have to be hyper vigilant. For this reason there are degrees of faults and degrees of correction. There are also proper authorities for certain faults.

Fraternal correction is a beautiful act of charity, when it is done correctly. Paul does not go into great detail. But we have had great saints who have explained Paul to us in great detail by their own example. My guess has always been that the people to whom Paul made this statement about correction knew his criteria. There was no need to restate it in his letters. Francis of Assisi certainly seemed to understand Pual’s criteria for correction. Mother Teresa of Calcutta also had a very profound understanding of Paul’s writings on this subject. We saw her constantly admonishing the world about many things: the needs of the poor, abortion, the lack of peace, the absence of virtue and more. But in her actions and in her writings she was always the gentlest person when correcting and also the most humble person. If there was a proper chain of command, she used it.

I always think about families. What would it be like if we let our children have free license to correct each other? There would probably be more fights than virtue. For that reason we often tell our children to back off and let the parents handle it. Francis and Mother understood Paul to encourage correction without abusing one’s authority and without overstepping the bound in the chain of command.

When we correct, while keeping all the above in mind, we do great charity for God and neighbor. Those who are not ready should not take it upon themselves to correct. Pass the problem on to someone who knows how to do it and has the authority to do so.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I have had one priest tell me it may not be a good idea for me to spend time on CAF.

But my usual confessor has never told me this and part of my confession usually has something to do with this site. I find myself utterly astounded by some of the stuff I read here. I have become angry and I am often sarcastic.

I think that for some this may not be a good place. I look at threads like “Do most souls escape Hell?” and read opinions that believing in heliocentrism is a sin and I just don’t know how to even wrap my head around this stuff. . . . .

I do know that the church I see here on CAF does NOT resemble the real time Catholic Church I have experienced!
 
I have had one priest tell me it may not be a good idea for me to spend time on CAF.

But my usual confessor has never told me this and part of my confession usually has something to do with this site. I find myself utterly astounded by some of the stuff I read here. I have become angry and I am often sarcastic.

I do know that the church I see here on CAF does NOT resemble the real time Catholic Church I have experienced!
I’ve been here on and off for five years, and what I think we’re seeing are people whose faith has never been tested or challenged, get together and share opinions that are more intimate about their faith than are normally shared in the “real time” church. Now that we find out not all Catholics were brought up thinking exactly like ourselves, and we think we have to reconcile all of our points of view somehow – especially by having others conform to our own ideas.

As far as getting angry, I did fairly often until recently I got myself suspended for a while. During that break, I realized that if I am being tested and challenged by opposite points of view on issues I hold near and dear, then I am failing the test. In fact, I’m now challenging myself to enter those controversial threads and see if I can do it without even so much as feeling anger – because if I feel it then somehow it works its way into my typing as sarcasm or condescension or even just plain anger.

Alan
 
Unfortunately, Catholic Answers is not a good place to find true holiness or to advance in the spiritual life. I for one feel sad to say this. The truth is that this is a forum where people come from many walks of life and many experiences. Many are not here to learn or to share what they have learned on their spiritual journey. Only when we surround ourselves with others who want to learn and share the spiritual journey do we enrich each other.

Catholic Answers, on the other hand, often has many people whom we have to understand. I have come to realize that there are many people here who do not have much to do with their time. There are others who are very burdened by guilt of previous “lives” for lack of a better term. They have come to a turning point where they have discovered the Church again or for the first time, but they don’t have much support in their situations. What happens is that they come to CAF looking to share their joy and looking for support. As they run into many different opinions and different people, they seem to panic when there is even a faintest hint of their former lives. That’s when they become hyper sensitive and react with anger and hostility. It’s the fear of the past that they have tried to leave behind. Anything that is of the same shade throws them off, not realizing that there are only so many shades of anyone given color and of course people and situations are going to be similar, but they are not the same.

The other problem that you may find here is that the moderators are not here to guide the posters. They are here to keep things moving in an orderly fashion. What you really have is a forum where many people are trying to guide the spiritual life of others, but they have no experience or training in such things as discernment of spirits, the life of prayer, the anatomy of the soul or the rules of moral guidance. Without those, you can often lead others into a pit, rather than up a hill. This triggers all kinds of negative feelings of frustrations and anger. It often develops into power struggles too.

I would also add that many come here to find answers for their spiritual journey. Catholic Answers is a great place to get information. There are many resources, including the posters. But getting answers for the journey is not the same thing. That should happen one-on-one with someone who has proven himself or herself to be knowledgeable of such things. When you come looking for that and you get sent in many directions it can be confusing and even frightening.

My suggestion to most people is to stay away from Catholic Answers and from all Catholic forums unless you’re looking to make friends, see what others are thinking and saying and are strong enough to remind yourself that this is not the Catholic Church. This is a sampling of a group of Catholics.

Have you noticed that you see very few priests and religious on Catholic Answers forums? There is a reason for that. The services that Catholic Answers provides are certainly well appreciated by the majority of clergy and religious. However the happenings of the forums, the discussion and the manner in which they operate has not always been received well among the clergy and among most religious communities. The attitude is that this is not a place where we want our brothers and this is not the population that we want in touch with our brothers. Many people on CA are very aggressive and rude. There is a very large number that seems to take special pleasure in bullying priests and religious. Unfortunately, our brothers don’t know how to respond. They tend to say the wrong thing and the situation only gets worse. In a community such as mine, where ¾ of our guys never come less than 100 feet of a lay person since they entered, to have someone tell you that you have no faith or that your form of the mass is a sacrilege or that you have no idea how to pray if you do not pray in Latin, or worse, that you (clergy and religious) do nothing for the holiness of the Church, that kind of stuff can be daunting. To an old man like me it’s just inappropriate behavior that I do not have to put up with and I don’t.

Some people are very sensitive souls and they carry this frustration into their daily lives of work and family. If this is going to happen to a person, then it is better for that person to take this in small doses. God does not want us to drag around anger or frustration all day long. Despite the illnesses of many Catholics, God still loves the Church and wants all of us to see her with the same love and compassion that he does. If this experience does not allow a person to do that, then it’s not good for him or her.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
JReducation - You are so wise and are blessed with being able to see the complete picture. So much truth flows out from your last post. I’ve always viewed CAF as a place for discussions, healthy and sometime interesting debates, share our experiences with faith, and to just find out information on parts of the Catholic Church that I wasn’t that knowledgeable on. And although I tend to not take things personally on these discussions, I’ve also learned to just keep my distance from that which feeds or wallows on negativity and sometime obnoxious cruelty. This is my practice in real life as well. It can sometimes be very easy to get caught up in the waves, especially with the relentless ones who work endlessly to take you down into the abyss with them.

Anyway, I always appreciate your insightful and loving posts. God bless. And I should be getting to bed and watch myself with being on here too long. 😉
 
I see CAF as a place where Catholics from all walks of life from clergy to construction workers can interact with one thing in common - FAITH.

I just wish there were groups or clubs where we could all gather in real life just like we do here. A place where Catholics (or anyone) can just be themselves, just like this… A place to bond outside of our place of worship.
 
I don’t mean getting into bad arguments. Here it is 8:15. I’ve stayed up all night doing emails, googling a couple things, but mostly being on CAF. I think this is pretty bad. The time goes so fast. I’m retired so it won’t affect my work day. But I know my spiritual director would strongly disapprove. I’m really disappointed that I did it and I’ll shortly go to mass and I’m sure this isn’t mortally sinful but definitely disobedient to what I know God wants of me. I rarely, almost never, stay up all night but often stay up too late.

Is this common with others of you? How do you discipline yourselves to get off the computer? Right now I feel badly enough to welcome suggestions, serious ones. Now I’m shutting this computer down. Thanks for any help you can give me.
Join the club. It comes as a shock to see I’ve posted over a 1000 times on this forum. Hopefully somebody’s gained something from it, but I wonder.

From time to time I’ll do an almost all nighter, but it’s usually when I’m depressed or frustrated. Another part of the problem is what might be called a lack of vocational interest, although I do two part time jobs, both directly or indirectly serving people - long term unemployed in one job, and people who can’t drive in the other. I’d like a trade, but I’m hardly likely to get one now.

In a sense both our weaknesses are related. Mine is vocational - I think part of the problem for you is that you’re retired, and that is no definite routine for tomorrow.

So I’d suggest maybe a bit more time in the service of others, committing yourself to some organisation if you haven’t done so already, to the point where it makes demands of you. It won’t stop you posting on CAF, but you might find you become more interested in others rather than the cop-out of time wasting merely communicating.

Any hobbies?
 
OP, for me, taking a break was the answer. A few years ago I wasted way too many nights (sometimes more than 6 hours) getting sucked into way too many non-productive conversations here. I checked in on the site multiple times per day. I checked in from work. I always left feeling negative due to the discussions I had engaged in. One day I decided to quit cold turkey and I gave up the site completely.

I spent 15 months away and I really enjoyed that the negatives were gone from my life. From time to time, I found myself missing the positives (a great source of Catholic information; discussions with other observant Catholics; etc). When I came back, I had a new-found perspective. Now I’m finding moderation is the watchword for me: I check in a few times a week and hang around for maybe 30 minutes at a time. Learning what (Politics forum) and who (apologetics warriors) to avoid has also worked wonders for my time here.

Good luck!
 
Come on… Were all one big family and we’re just here for the comradery, right…? Is’nt that what keeps drawing us back…?
 
Different strokes for different folks, right? I think the internet can very easily addict certain people, whether it be with games like WoW or Farmville, and yes, even internet forums.

I can spend hours online if I have nothing else to do, especially if I see something interesting and I want to read it.

I’m sure I"ve moaned about it elsewhere, but NZL is a very secular country. I dont’ have a lot of Catholic friends, and most of the friends I do have are over seas. I’m not a very socially viable person, so I find the internet a place where I can get some interaction, and at least get some good Catholic/religious discussion - and I love a good religious discussion. Especially if I learn somethign from it, which I tend to do.

As for having people read and like or agree with what I post, I don’t really mind any which way. I dont’ get a lot of attention in real life, so I have accepted that by extension I won’t get much online. Unless my NZL slang comes out and I type something that offends every man and his dog, and beleive you me, NZL has some pretty casual slang that can be seen as offensive to those who don’t understand it.

Though it reassures me that there are good and knowledgable Catholics out there.👍
 
I look at CA as a place to test and purify my faith. It gets tense, and those are the times when I have an opportunity to “take off the gloves” and learn to be charitable in all circumstances. I’ve found it is contagious. Within the last few weeks I’ve seen several “contenders” learn to discuss their differences (they still do not agree) with respect. :yup:

Even if this is a “dirty” place, spiritually, that’s all the more reason to be here and maybe even become a forum supporter (btw I can’t figure out what that means) or something. We can start on nice touchy-feely threads to gather some confidence, then go charge into a mildly heated discussion and see how you fare. If it doesn’t go well, retreat, go back to the “chicken soup” threads or even the game threads for a while, regroup, and attack again. 😉 It’s all here, just thread-surf like you channel-surf on TV to find what you need at any particular moment.

I believe love is contagious, like yeast that works its way throughout the dough. Spreads like the loaves and fishes. Multiplies 100 times when it dies and grows back again. All we have to do is stick with it, especially those who have skills in calming quarrels, and pretty soon this whole place will be oozing with love. ❤️

Alan
 
I believe that one is not sinning if they come to this site to pray for anothers well being, and is attentive to the time they spend on this site. As long as it s done for the betterment of CAF members, and their families, and not to prove or disprove God or get into hostile debates then the whole point of being here is not sinful. I wish you the best in trying to break the 1-7 am addiction of this forum.
God Bless.
Magdelaine.
 
Different strokes for different folks, right? I think the internet can very easily addict certain people, whether it be with games like WoW or Farmville, and yes, even internet forums.

I can spend hours online if I have nothing else to do, especially if I see something interesting and I want to read it.

I’m sure I"ve moaned about it elsewhere, but NZL is a very secular country. I dont’ have a lot of Catholic friends, and most of the friends I do have are over seas. I’m not a very socially viable person, so I find the internet a place where I can get some interaction, and at least get some good Catholic/religious discussion - and I love a good religious discussion. Especially if I learn somethign from it, which I tend to do.

As for having people read and like or agree with what I post, I don’t really mind any which way. I dont’ get a lot of attention in real life, so I have accepted that by extension I won’t get much online. Unless my NZL slang comes out and I type something that offends every man and his dog, and beleive you me, NZL has some pretty casual slang that can be seen as offensive to those who don’t understand it.

Though it reassures me that there are good and knowledgable Catholics out there.👍
Well I have to agree with you there, the internet can be very addictive, but this surely has to be one of the better addictions on the internet in comparison to alot of the other stuff out there.

Like you, I also come here for good spirited interaction.
 
Water can carry the boat or drown the boat. Same is true for participating CAF.

Personally I have learned a lot from CAF – good books, saints, knowledge, and self.
From the time I joined the forum till now, I see how participating CAF has served as a tool for my self control, prudence, and patience. From the eagerness in the beginning to refraining myself and being selective, from being agitated by posted nonsense, to the calm of heart and not allow my peace to be disturbed, I see myself walked a meaningful path.
 
I don’t mean getting into bad arguments. Here it is 8:15. I’ve stayed up all night doing emails, googling a couple things, but mostly being on CAF. I think this is pretty bad. The time goes so fast. I’m retired so it won’t affect my work day. But I know my spiritual director would strongly disapprove. I’m really disappointed that I did it and I’ll shortly go to mass and I’m sure this isn’t mortally sinful but definitely disobedient to what I know God wants of me. I rarely, almost never, stay up all night but often stay up too late.

Is this common with others of you? How do you discipline yourselves to get off the computer? Right now I feel badly enough to welcome suggestions, serious ones. Now I’m shutting this computer down. Thanks for any help you can give me.
i dont think its sinfull as long as you arent looking at anything sinfull e.g anything impure…and i dont think being on caf is sinfull…

to wean yourself off the computer set yourself a daily internet allowance that you will be online…and either use this all in one time online or split up throughout the day…and set an alarm so you keep track of time and when your alarm goes and you have used up the time you set aside for using the internet then go offline…after all there is always tomorrow to surf the net…
 
Here’s another question. I used to mostly go on the liturgy, traditional catholic, and non-catholic religions forums. Lately I tend to concentrate on this one, with an occasional visit to another, because of the arguments I would read or get into. I wonder if some of you have changed your forum preferences for similar reasons (or maybe just because your interests changed).
 
Here’s another question. I used to mostly go on the liturgy, traditional catholic, and non-catholic religions forums. Lately I tend to concentrate on this one, with an occasional visit to another, because of the arguments I would read or get into. I wonder if some of you have changed your forum preferences for similar reasons (or maybe just because your interests changed).
I think I was drawn at first by wanting to be right, and helping to facilitate friendly discussion. That was hard. I fell into the trap, started taking it personally, and I was just as judgmental as anyone else.

But now I am attracted because I challenge myself to remain charitable and to think the best of the other posters – especially those who I seem to rub the wrong way. That, IMO, is helping me learn to accept, understand, and respect those with different points of view than I have. If I am judgmental, I try to at least behave respectfully long enough to give the other person a fair shot at making his point before I decide whether to agree with it.

Alan
 
Here’s another question. I used to mostly go on the liturgy, traditional catholic, and non-catholic religions forums. Lately I tend to concentrate on this one, with an occasional visit to another, because of the arguments I would read or get into. I wonder if some of you have changed your forum preferences for similar reasons (or maybe just because your interests changed).
When I first joined, I’d say I was mostly on the Liturgy and the traditional Catholic forums. But I tend to jump around when I see something of interest. I’ve posted a lot, but I’ve also lurked often.

The Family forums, especially the ones regarding childrearing, became of more interest for me because I was pregnant and have a new baby. It was also less combative and more nurturing and supportive. I loved the positive energy which flowed from those who were involved. I became tired of angry, bitter people on some of the other forums, especially while I was pregnant. Some of what I read or became involved in saddened and exhausted me. I just didn’t have the energy at the time to deal with it, as it was so ridiculous and uncalled for. It’s one thing to have a discussion or debate. I enjoy discussions which are respectful and are sometimes heated regarding the difference of opinion on the topic itself. That doesn’t bother me. But it’s another to be cruel and condescending, or to be looking for something to be offended by. And sometimes, it just seems that there were people out there ready to “pounce” on something or someone. That was what saddened me.
 
It’s funny that this topic came up. I just had a dinner conversation with friend that has to do with this subject.

My friend had just read an article on how people who argue with people for the sake of arguing in many cases are usually suffering physically or mentally in some way. This is not to say the person is mentally ill, but some sort of anguish is going on that may or may not be recognized by the person who is irritable and restless.

I of course brought up the fact that this explains much of the behavior on the internet. It is a vehicle of conversation for people that is accessible twenty four hours a day. Throw in anonymity, and an internet message board is the perfect venue for the who makes arguing his or her hobby.

The other thing I noticed was that bad days can be infectious. Have you ever noticed that one grump can ruin your whole day? Your doing fine, and all of a sudden some one rains on your parade and you end up being grumpy the rest of the day. It’s bizarre, but it’s like yawning. Somebody yawns, and you start to yawn. I can see how a message board can suddenly become a grump fest.

There is something to be said about misery loving company, and I’m sure message boards all of the internet fill the needs of thousands of grumps world wide.

I learned a few years ago that being off the internet is more beneficial than being on it. Grumps and trolls usually end up on my ignore list, and I use it anytime a person starts to get insultingly snippy.
 
I know that when I first started arguing on CAF I was, in fact, suffering from a mental disorder. The mania compelled me to remain stuck to controversy like glue.

Anyway, that’s all in the past. I just had an idea about an exercise to learn to quit arguing.

Change the focus from evangelizing, being right, being fair, or whatever your goals are for arguing. 😉

Argue for the sake of finding an excuse to compliment the Good Work by somebody who disagrees with you. Go ahead and disagree, so that it is clear you are neither a sycophant nor a pushover. Then, even if they get “cornered,” find something they say that you can honestly say is brilliant. 😃

Of course, do NOT add, “that’s what I’ve been saying all along.” :rolleyes:

Alan
 
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