Sinning & Sinless

[Mosacked]

We know that because Adam sinned, therefore God had to cast him out of paradise (God’s heavenly paradise) and eventually leading to the sending of His Son as redemption Sacrifice.

ONE SIN.

Note - ONE.

So, let’s assume that all of us here enters the kingdom of heaven. And while there, one of us speaks a heresy. BANG…SIN! What happens???

Do you think that person will be cast out of heaven?

My point is this. Do you think that ANYone who is capable of sinning will get into heaven? Or for that matter, will heaven also have people who excuse themselves for sinning, or views sinning lightly or engage in certain seemingly minor acts of sin be in God’s Kingdom?

I mean, just look at what happened to Adam who committed just ONE Sin.

It seems to me that its almost impossible to be in the kingdom unless you’re PERFECT! Anything else leads to corruption & eventually damnation.

.

 

[ralphinal]

Adam was not in heaven. Adam was on earth pre-fall. It was paradise because he did not have to work for food and no animals were threats to himself or each other. The weather was perfect. The Bible is clear that he was not in heaven.

It is impossible for humans to sin in heaven. Once we die, our minds are no longer clouded by human limitations. We will KNOW the Truth about God. If we are in heaven, our wills will be fixed on God. Once we are in heaven, there is no turning back. Same for hell.

The Bible says that nothing impure will reach God. That is true. That is also the reason for purgatory. It gives us the last bit of refinement before heaven, if that is where we are headed

 

[Mosacked]

Adam was not in heaven. Adam was on earth pre-fall. It was paradise because he did not have to work for food and no animals were threats to himself or each other. The weather was perfect. The Bible is clear that he was not in heaven.

It is impossible for humans to sin in heaven. Once we die, our minds are no longer clouded by human limitations. We will KNOW the Truth about God. If we are in heaven, our wills will be fixed on God. Once we are in heaven, there is no turning back. Same for hell.

The Bible says that nothing impure will reach God. That is true. That is also the reason for purgatory. It gives us the last bit of refinement before heaven, if that is where we are headed

Let me get this right…You are implying that these people who are sinful will no longer sin not because they are good people, but because they no longer have limitations. So are these people godly or holy people to begin with???

My point is, if someone is inclined to sin…let’s say he/she is materialistic…can we blame her materialism on her human limitations or human-‘ness’? Are you not justifying their sinning then and then putting them into your perceived ‘heaven’ and saying ‘hey, don’t worry, they will no longer sin’.

Isn’t that like trying to put a bunch of rotten apples that has been in the sun for too long into the fridge and then saying ‘don’t worry, once the temperature is right, they will become good apples’.

ARE YOU SERIOUS?

.

 

[ralphinal]

Let me get this right…You are implying that these people who are sinful will no longer sin not because they are good people, but because they no longer have limitations. So are these people godly or holy people to begin with???

My point is, if someone is inclined to sin…let’s say he/she is materialistic…can we blame her materialism on her human limitations or human-‘ness’? Are you not justifying their sinning then and then putting them into your perceived ‘heaven’ and saying ‘hey, don’t worry, they will no longer sin’.

Isn’t that like trying to put a bunch of rotten apples that has been in the sun for too long into the fridge and then saying ‘don’t worry, once the temperature is right, they will become good apples’.

ARE YOU SERIOUS?

.

Yes. I am serious, but I do not think that you understand.

We can only sin as long as we are ALIVE in our current bodies. Once we die, we can no longer sin. That is basic Christian theology. After the resurrection of the dead and the final judgement (notice: FINAL), we can no longer sin, either.

If we go to heaven, why would you WANT to sin?

 

[Mosacked]

Yes. I am serious, but I do not think that you understand.

We can only sin as long as we are ALIVE in our current bodies. Once we die, we can no longer sin. That is basic Christian theology. After the resurrection of the dead and the final judgement (notice: FINAL), we can no longer sin, either.

If we go to heaven, why would you WANT to sin?

Of course, IF I were to be in heaven, I wouldn’t want to sin.

But please listen to yourself. What you are saying is equivalent to saying…‘don’t worry dump these sinful people into heaven after cleansing them, they will become good’.

If that is so, why Judas would be in heaven since he only had a moment of weakness…and by your understanding, if God were to put him into heaven, Judas would be a godly person". Why did John the Baptist shout at the Pharisees at the Jordan River? Wouldn’t it have been better for him to say ‘welcome…welcome!..come, let’s all go in and be saints!’

I think you missed the whole point of Christianity all together. And its a very BIG MISS.

.

 

[ralphinal]

Of course, IF I were to be in heaven, I wouldn’t want to sin.

But please listen to yourself. What you are saying is equivalent to saying…‘don’t worry dump these sinful people into heaven after cleansing them, they will become good’.

If that is so, why Judas would be in heaven since he only had a moment of weakness…and by your understanding, if God were to put him into heaven, Judas would be a godly person". Why did John the Baptist shout at the Pharisees at the Jordan River? Wouldn’t it have been better for him to say ‘welcome…welcome!..come, let’s all go in and be saints!’

I think you missed the whole point of Christianity all together. And its a very BIG MISS.

.

We seem to have some sort of miscommunication.

Do you believe that you can sin AFTER you die? IF so, can you provide some basis for this? To what denomination do you belong?

My postition, and as far as I know it is the same with almost all of Christianity, says that you can no longer sin once you die. As Paul writes, first comes death then Judgement. Once you have been judged, you are in heaven (where you will stay), Hell (again, no way out), or purgatory (will end up in heaven).

Now, on earth, any mortal sin can end your trip to heaven if you die in a state of unrepentant sin. On earth, however, you can repent

 

[Mosacked]

We seem to have some sort of miscommunication.

Do you believe that you can sin AFTER you die? IF so, can you provide some basis for this? To what denomination do you belong?

My postition, and as far as I know it is the same with almost all of Christianity, says that you can no longer sin once you die. As Paul writes, first comes death then Judgement. Once you have been judged, you are in heaven (where you will stay), Hell (again, no way out), or purgatory (will end up in heaven).

Now, on earth, any mortal sin can end your trip to heaven if you die in a state of unrepentant sin. On earth, however, you can repent

From where do you learn such? From the mouth of men? Let us learn only from the mouth of God.

Have you not heard that if a man speaketh against the Holy Ghost, he shall not be forgiven neither in this life nor the next?

Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

If there is forgiveness in the next, how is there no sin? Were not even Satan and his angels cast out of heaven because of their transgression?

What is sin? Sin is an act/will against God. How then can you say that those in heaven will not sin when Satan was the first to violate against the will of God and SINNED?

Be not deceived, a wicked heart enters not the kingdom of God. God is not mocked.

The way to heaven is narrow indeed and few shall enter it. Paul worked out his salvation with TREMBLING & FEAR, not by attending earthly churches and sacraments which by themselves do not save but are mere guides if they are anointed, unto God.

• I am from the Church Of God.

 

[ralphinal]

From where do you learn such? From the mouth of men? Let us learn only from the mouth of God.

Have you not heard that if a man speaketh against the Holy Ghost, he shall not be forgiven neither in this life nor the next?

Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

If there is forgiveness in the next, how is there no sin? Were not even Satan and his angels cast out of heaven because of their transgression?

It depends on who you ask. The overall thought is that Satan’s sin was either that he refused to serve God or that he rebelled and desired his own universe to rule (The Prince of Angels, Michael, has a name that mean “Who is Like God.” Think about it: who is like GOd? Or, who DARES to say he is like God?)

But, how do you know that the SIN there is a sin committed by man in the afterlife? How do you know that Jesus is not talking about post death redemption for sins on earth, which was part of the Jewish faith of his day and supported by Maccabees.

What is sin? Sin is an act/will against God. How then can you say that those in heaven will not sin when Satan was the first to violate against the will of God and SINNED?

Be not deceived, a wicked heart enters not the kingdom of God. God is not mocked.

The way to heaven is narrow indeed and few shall enter it. Paul worked out his salvation with TREMBLING & FEAR, not by attending earthly churches and sacraments which by themselves do not save but are mere guides if they are anointed, unto God.

• I am from the Church Of God.

Which Church of God?

See, I am still looking for an idea that Man can sin after death. This is not traditional understanding of the Bible.

 

[Mosacked]

It depends on who you ask. The overall thought is that Satan’s sin was either that he refused to serve God or that he rebelled and desired his own universe to rule (The Prince of Angels, Michael, has a name that mean “Who is Like God.” Think about it: who is like GOd? Or, who DARES to say he is like God?)

But, how do you know that the SIN there is a sin committed by man in the afterlife? How do you know that Jesus is not talking about post death redemption for sins on earth, which was part of the Jewish faith of his day and supported by Maccabees.

Which Church of God?

See, I am still looking for an idea that Man can sin after death. This is not traditional understanding of the Bible.

Ralph,

Sin is the will/act against God. We know that it is possible for angels to violate God’s will (since Satan transgressed). We know the absence of forgiveness for blaspheming against the Holy Ghost EXTENDS even to the after-life. So, how can we say it is impossible to sin after death?

Notice that the references given to those who do eventually enter heaven are totally subservient (eg. children, sheep etc, ie are ONE in union with God through Jesus). God often refers to His people as SHEEP. And that only those who do the will of the Father will enter heaven.

You are right to say that those who do inherit the kingdom will not sin. You know why? Its not because sin does not exist, its not because it is impossible to sin, but because these people subject themselves totally to the will of God, and God has tried and tested these people to be obedient UNTO DEATH. But that does not mean that they do not have a will of their own.

The point is, if these are people who do not do the will of God (ie live by God’s will), or are people who are wayward, or are stubbornly erroneous, how can such be called SHEEP?

Consequently, such will never make it to heaven. Never mind the purgatory session, never mind the praying, holy communion, baptism etc etc…these are GOATS. And goats can never be allowed into a sheep’s fold.

That’s why very very few will enter heaven. I believe there are so few of them eventually that the multitudes of mankind will end up in hell. That’s why Paul warned us all to work out our Salvation with Fear and Trembling.

.

 

[ralphinal]

Ralph,

Sin is the will/act against God. We know that it is possible for angels to violate God’s will (since Satan transgressed). We know the absence of forgiveness for blaspheming against the Holy Ghost EXTENDS even to the after-life. So, how can we say it is impossible to sin after death?

Notice that the references given to those who do eventually enter heaven are totally subservient (eg. children, sheep etc, ie are ONE in union with God through Jesus). God often refers to His people as SHEEP. And that only those who do the will of the Father will enter heaven.

You are right to say that those who do inherit the kingdom will not sin. You know why? Its not because sin does not exist, its not because it is impossible to sin, but because these people subject themselves totally to the will of God, and God has tried and tested these people to be obedient UNTO DEATH. But that does not mean that they do not have a will of their own.

The point is, if these are people who do not do the will of God (ie live by God’s will), or are people who are wayward, or are stubbornly erroneous, how can such be called SHEEP?

Consequently, such will never make it to heaven. Never mind the purgatory session, never mind the praying, holy communion, baptism etc etc…these are GOATS. And goats can never be allowed into a sheep’s fold.

That’s why very very few will enter heaven. I believe there are so few of them eventually that the multitudes of mankind will end up in hell. That’s why Paul warned us all to work out our Salvation with Fear and Trembling.

.

What I think that I am missing is how, after we are judged (and Paul says first comes death, than judgement) we will sin?

What you propose is totally new theology.

 

[Mosacked]

What I think that I am missing is how, after we are judged (and Paul says first comes death, than judgement) we will sin?

What you propose is totally new theology.

Not new, just disregarded by most.

Ralph,

If it is impossible to sin (not because we choose not to sin but because the environment or conditions then do not allow it to occur), then what is the purpose of Salvation?

With that, there would be no necessity to bear fruits of the Spirit, no necessity to live for God, no necessity to pommel one’s body as a living sacrifice. All these 3 ‘goals’ are what the apostles and Jesus Himself beseeched the followers to strive for.

A man without these ‘achievements’ could very well be saved and enter heaven. And what would be the outcome is a community of persistent sinners or people with little or no regard to sin (transgressing against God’s will) allowed in heaven because of their following of sacraments and physical instructions.

Do you think God is to be mocked?

Where then would be righteousness? Where then would be faithfulness?

If heaven were to comprise of such people, I would offer even myself for Hell.

.

 

[ralphinal]

Not new, just disregarded by most.

Ralph,

If it is impossible to sin (not because we choose not to sin but because the environment or conditions then do not allow it to occur), then what is the purpose of Salvation?

With that, there would be no necessity to bear fruits of the Spirit, no necessity to live for God, no necessity to pommel one’s body as a living sacrifice. All these 3 ‘goals’ are what the apostles and Jesus Himself beseeched the followers to strive for.

A man without these ‘achievements’ could very well be saved and enter heaven. And what would be the outcome is a community of persistent sinners or people with little or no regard to sin (transgressing against God’s will) allowed in heaven because of their following of sacraments and physical instructions.

Do you think God is to be mocked?

Where then would be righteousness? Where then would be faithfulness?

If heaven were to comprise of such people, I would offer even myself for Hell.

.

I am still having trouble here.

You are saying that people in heaven can and will sin, right?

 

[Mosacked]

I am still having trouble here.

You are saying that people in heaven can and will sin, right?

I am saying, they can. I am not saying they will.

These are found faithful UNTO DEATH. So, why would they choose to sin after being judged righteous and faithful to keep themselves holy for God?

If they do not have a will of their own, they would be mere puppets.
If they do have a will of their own, and it conflicts with God’s, it would be SIN.

These HAVE a will of their own, but they WILL themselves to GOD. That is why they will never sin. But think, what kind of people would WILL themselves to God? SHEEP.

.