Sinning whilst waiting on annulment

[abominableangel]

Hi everyone

I have a problem and I need your advice… I am an Anglican I came to faith if that’s the right way of wording it last July but having read lots and listening to various apologists from both catholic and protestant persuasions I wish to convert to Catholicism. In my studies I’ve discovered that I have to apply for an annulment of my first marriage. I was married at 18 and it lasted only 18 months before we divorced… I fully appreciate that I may not get my annulment but thats not what this post is about.

I hope this isn’t too presumptuous but I have to go with the train of thought that I will be granted my annulment, that I will succeed… God lead me to the Catholic Church he gave me the clear signs that this was the correct path I should take so I have to be hopeful here, though accepting of failure if it arises.

My issue is this I am remarried and have been for nearly 8 years though we have been together for 12 years and have two sons.

I now fully appreciate that I am currently living in mortal sin I am an adulteress… I also have a long wait by human standards for any ruling on my first marriage.

So here’s my problem I adore my husband and he does me but now I know that we are living in mortal sin I can no longer have marital relations with him, this is going to cause so many problems for both of us … so lets say I can pray through it (though I doubt as I know I’m not that strong) and have a fulfilling relationship that doesnt include sex …

I’m still in trouble as I will be looking in lust at my husband, I can’t help that I love him, that I want him and that I find him attractive… so I’m still in sin and a sin that I don’t really want to be repentant of if I’m honest … Divorce was always an option I was taught by society and the Anglican church accepts divorce as an annulment so in my current tradition my marriage is alright in the sight of God … (yes I know that isn’t true… NOW)

So I don’t know what to do… whilst I wait for my annulment I’m living in sin no matter what I do and if I die before that process is complete I’m damned. I don’t even want to tempt fate here and say the chances of me dying before the annulment comes through are very remote who knows when my final hour is and if it comes soon … I’m cooked… literally!

There has to be others who are in the same boat as me, married again but waiting on an annulment from a first marriage… what are you doing about these issues?

I’m really rather scared to be honest

 

[Gorgias]

Angel,

It seems to me that Catholic canon law is binding on Catholics (although there are portions that speak to all Christians). Therefore, since you are not Catholic, and you were married within the laws of your church (and, I presume (?), divorced and remarried legally there), then you’re OK for now, as far as ‘sin’ goes.

However, as you approach entry into the Catholic Church, you’ll want to speak with your parish priest, and make sure you take care of all the particular circumstances of your situation, one of which will be the regularization of your marriage…

Practical upshot, though, as Monicad has mentioned – talk to a priest!!!

 

[1ke]

I suggest you talk over your spiritual issues with your (Catholic) priest. I think you are being overly scrupulous regarding the idea that you are in a state of sin regardless of what you do.

There are many people who go through this period of awating a decree of nullity in order to convalidate their current marriage. It is difficult but it can be done, and I think counsel from your priest will help you to not feel like a person damned (which you are not) at every turn.

 

[1ke]

Angel,

It seems to me that Catholic canon law is binding on Catholics (although there are portions that speak to all Christians). Therefore, since you are not Catholic, and you were married within the laws of your church (and, I presume (?), divorced and remarried legally there), then you’re OK for now, as far as ‘sin’ goes.

This is accurate with regard to merely ecclesial laws (such as where a person gets married, who must witness it, etc). However, it is not correct regarding divine law (divorce and remarriage). Christ’s law on marriage applies to all the baptized.

 

[abominableangel]

This is accurate with regard to merely ecclesial laws (such as where a person gets married, who must witness it, etc). However, it is not correct regarding divine law (divorce and remarriage). Christ’s law on marriage applies to all the baptized.

So I would be right enough to say that I am currently living in sin being in a sexual relationship with my second husband having not annulled the first …

I’ve been told not to separate from my husband because of our children, but how do I deal with the physical side… my husband is baptised but doesnt claim faith (yet … though I’m always hopeful) hes going to want that side of our relationship … as will I, but convicted by sin I’m going to be chewing off my own arm, then give in, then be racked with guilt having given in to the body. Plus having my husband see I feel guilty for loving him the way a wife should is going to make him feel awful

has anyone here had to deal with this situation and how can you for what could be an 18 month to 3 year wait.

 

[zenith15]

I was/am in just such a situation, though I have more than one annulment I am waiting for. Papers filed over a year ago and still waiting. There is no reason to believe they won’t be approved though.

My husband is in poor health due to liver disease and is awaiting a transplant. Because of this, our marriage has been chaste for several years now. After consulting with my priests and a canon lawyer, I found out that as long as my husband and I live chastely, because we have a child we are not required to have separate living arrangements until our marriage can be convalidated–all that is required is that we “live as brother and sister” while we wait–which we essentially were anyhow. Therefore, I was able to enter the church and be confirmed last month.

I don’t undergo massive temptation–we love one another deeply but we are older (48 and 59) and quite frankly neither of us is in the best of health though wed are working on that, so I can’t really say what you should do about lust, etc. Certainly having separate sleeping quarters in your home would help. I have no idea if minor displays of affection, such as kissing and hugging, would be wrong–perhaps someone else can tell you that.

I wish you the nest of luck for a speedy annulment and advise you to get started on it right away as they take a good long while to come through.

 

[jmcrae]

I agree with the advice to discuss this with the priest who is helping you with the Nullity process - he will be able to advise you for your particular situation.

Follow whatever advice he gives you, and don’t second-guess him on the Internet. He is “in persona Christi” so, as Mary said to the servants, “do whatever he tells you.”

 

[Catholic1954]

Hi everyone

I have a problem and I need your advice… I am an Anglican I came to faith if that’s the right way of wording it last July but having read lots and listening to various apologists from both catholic and protestant persuasions I wish to convert to Catholicism. In my studies I’ve discovered that I have to apply for an annulment of my first marriage. I was married at 18 and it lasted only 18 months before we divorced… I fully appreciate that I may not get my annulment but thats not what this post is about.

I hope this isn’t too presumptuous but I have to go with the train of thought that I will be granted my annulment, that I will succeed… God lead me to the Catholic Church he gave me the clear signs that this was the correct path I should take so I have to be hopeful here, though accepting of failure if it arises.

My issue is this I am remarried and have been for nearly 8 years though we have been together for 12 years and have two sons.

I now fully appreciate that I am currently living in mortal sin I am an adulteress… I also have a long wait by human standards for any ruling on my first marriage.

So here’s my problem I adore my husband and he does me but now I know that we are living in mortal sin I can no longer have marital relations with him, this is going to cause so many problems for both of us … so lets say I can pray through it (though I doubt as I know I’m not that strong) and have a fulfilling relationship that doesnt include sex …

I’m still in trouble as I will be looking in lust at my husband, I can’t help that I love him, that I want him and that I find him attractive… so I’m still in sin and a sin that I don’t really want to be repentant of if I’m honest … Divorce was always an option I was taught by society and the Anglican church accepts divorce as an annulment so in my current tradition my marriage is alright in the sight of God … (yes I know that isn’t true… NOW)

So I don’t know what to do… whilst I wait for my annulment I’m living in sin no matter what I do and if I die before that process is complete I’m damned. I don’t even want to tempt fate here and say the chances of me dying before the annulment comes through are very remote who knows when my final hour is and if it comes soon … I’m cooked… literally!

There has to be others who are in the same boat as me, married again but waiting on an annulment from a first marriage… what are you doing about these issues?

I’m really rather scared to be honest

Welcome Home! You need the advice of a wise and holy priest. Annulments are done on a case by case basis; some are short and simple and some are long and complicated. A priest will be in the best position to advise you on your situation and get the paperwork started (LOTS of that!). He will also get you started on your way to converting to the Catholic Church.

 

[Gorgias]

1ke:

This is accurate with regard to merely ecclesial laws (such as where a person gets married, who must witness it, etc). However, it is not correct regarding divine law (divorce and remarriage). Christ’s law on marriage applies to all the baptized.

So I would be right enough to say that I am currently living in sin being in a sexual relationship with my second husband having not annulled the first …

1ke,

Angel’s conclusion – that she is in a state of sin – is exactly the unfortunate result of the line of thought that you provided, and is precisely what I was thinking of. Are you really saying that, for non-Catholic Christians – and in this case, a Christian who was following the laws of her church – that following the laws of her Christian church will lead to a state of sin that results in a loss of eternal reward? This is what I was addressing; it seems that this is not what the Church teaches.

Certainly, divine law binds all Christians, while Catholic ecclesiastical law binds only Catholics. However, looking at my Beal/Coriden/Green, I read: “the limitation of canonical obligations to Catholics is one of the most important innovations of the 1983 code. Canon 12 of the 1917 code had bound all the baptized to the ecclesiastical laws of the Catholic Church. The implication of the revised law, based on the doctrine of Vatican II, is that non-Catholic Christians have an ecclesial reality of their own and are bound to the laws of their own church or ecclesial community.” The footnote at that point in the text reads, “LG 8; OE 5; UR 3, 8, 15, 16. UR 3 speaks of significant ecclesial elements and endowments that exist in other Christian churches … among which would certainly be their own laws and customs. This is recognized explicitly … in respect to marriage law, which is a fundamental rule … valid in the Latin canon law.” (cf New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law, p 64).

So, I hear what you’re saying, 1ke, but I’m not convinced. Might you have any references that you would be willing to share with me, dealing specifically with marriage law vis-a-vis non-Catholic Christians (as such), that might help us resolve this seeming impasse?

Thanks!

G.

p.s., Angel, my apologies for this aside – certainly, this doesn’t address your questions, per se, but it will help Catholics who are learning the basis of the Church’s teachings on situations like yours.

 

[jmcrae]

1ke,

Angel’s conclusion – that she is in a state of sin – is exactly the unfortunate result of the line of thought that you provided, and is precisely what I was thinking of. Are you really saying that, for non-Catholic Christians – and in this case, a Christian who was following the laws of her church – that following the laws of her Christian church will lead to a state of sin that results in a loss of eternal reward? This is what I was addressing; it seems that this is not what the Church teaches.

The law that human beings can only be married once is a law of God that was given by Christ; it is not merely a cultural peculiarity of the modern-day Catholic Church; nor is it a changeable discipline of the Church.

Organizations that tell people they can be divorced at the whim of a judge and remarried are indeed sending those people directly to the hot place, by express elevator - it may seem “charitable” to allow divorce and remarriage, but it is an exchange of short term peace for long term misery.

Certainly, divine law binds all Christians, while Catholic ecclesiastical law binds only Catholics. However, looking at my Beal/Coriden/Green, I read: “the limitation of canonical obligations to Catholics is one of the most important innovations of the 1983 code. Canon 12 of the 1917 code had bound all the baptized to the ecclesiastical laws of the Catholic Church. The implication of the revised law, based on the doctrine of Vatican II, is that non-Catholic Christians have an ecclesial reality of their own and are bound to the laws of their own church or ecclesial community.”

This is with respect to such things as attendance at weekly Mass, observance of days of fasting, and other things of that sort. Regarding marriage, obviously non-Catholics are not required to marry each other according to Catholic law.

However, because of the Divine Law, they still can only marry once, and may not be divorced.

(Catholics, regardless of who they are marrying, must marry according to Catholic law.)

 

[1ke]

So I would be right enough to say that I am currently living in sin being in a sexual relationship with my second husband having not annulled the first …

I’ve been told not to separate from my husband because of our children, but how do I deal with the physical side… my husband is baptised but doesnt claim faith (yet … though I’m always hopeful) hes going to want that side of our relationship … as will I, but convicted by sin I’m going to be chewing off my own arm, then give in, then be racked with guilt having given in to the body. Plus having my husband see I feel guilty for loving him the way a wife should is going to make him feel awful

has anyone here had to deal with this situation and how can you for what could be an 18 month to 3 year wait.

As I said, this is something to talk over with your Catholic priest. He wil guide you.

 

[1ke]

1ke,

Angel’s conclusion – that she is in a state of sin – is exactly the unfortunate result of the line of thought that you provided, and is precisely what I was thinking of. Are you really saying that, for non-Catholic Christians – and in this case, a Christian who was following the laws of her church – that following the laws of her Christian church will lead to a state of sin that results in a loss of eternal reward? This is what I was addressing; it seems that this is not what the Church teaches.

Certainly, divine law binds all Christians, while Catholic ecclesiastical law binds only Catholics. However, looking at my Beal/Coriden/Green, I read: “the limitation of canonical obligations to Catholics is one of the most important innovations of the 1983 code. Canon 12 of the 1917 code had bound all the baptized to the ecclesiastical laws of the Catholic Church. The implication of the revised law, based on the doctrine of Vatican II, is that non-Catholic Christians have an ecclesial reality of their own and are bound to the laws of their own church or ecclesial community.” The footnote at that point in the text reads, “LG 8; OE 5; UR 3, 8, 15, 16. UR 3 speaks of significant ecclesial elements and endowments that exist in other Christian churches … among which would certainly be their own laws and customs. This is recognized explicitly … in respect to marriage law, which is a fundamental rule … valid in the Latin canon law.” (cf New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law, p 64).

So, I hear what you’re saying, 1ke, but I’m not convinced. Might you have any references that you would be willing to share with me, dealing specifically with marriage law vis-a-vis non-Catholic Christians (as such), that might help us resolve this seeming impasse?

Thanks!

G.

p.s., Angel, my apologies for this aside – certainly, this doesn’t address your questions, per se, but it will help Catholics who are learning the basis of the Church’s teachings on situations like yours.

One must understand what ecclesiastical laws of the Church are. They are not the same thing as divine law.

Ecclesial laws are the disciplinary laws of the Church-- days of fasting, abstinence from meat, Holy Days of Obligation, form of marriage, etc.

Divine laws apply to all Christians, indeed to all people.

 

[Gorgias]

One must understand what ecclesiastical laws of the Church are. They are not the same thing as divine law.

Ecclesial laws are the disciplinary laws of the Church-- days of fasting, abstinence from meat, Holy Days of Obligation, form of marriage, etc.

Divine laws apply to all Christians, indeed to all people.

Judith & 1ke,

Hang on a second – I think we’re talking about two different things, here. Yes, I understand the difference between divine law and merely ecclesiastical law. However, the question at hand is culpability. Angel’s concern is that she’s in a state of sin – that is, that she is culpable for sinful acts.

Clearly, however, there’s a difference. Let’s take an extreme example or two: suppose a child, younger than the age of reason, kills someone. Is that killing objectively sinful? Yes. Is that child culpable – that is, in a state of mortal sin? No, because s/he is not held responsible for that action.

Or, perhaps, let’s take the case of someone (a non-Christian, perhaps) who never learned that sleeping around is sinful. Is there objective sin? Yes. Is that person held culpable for that sin? No – even though this is a transgression of divine law, there’s not culpability.

What I’m saying is simple: aside from the legal analysis of ‘divine’ and ‘ecclesiastical’ law, Angel is asking whether she’s held culpable at the present moment for her marital situation. If she weren’t thinking about entering the Catholic Church, the answer is simple: it reduces down to the equivalent question: “Are all re-married non-Catholic Christians going to hell?” It would seem that the answer is “no”, based on the way that the Church defines culpability. The fact that Angel is thinking about entering the Church adds some complexity to the question, but this is only with respect to how her entry into the Church is accomplished – she’ll need her marriages looked at by a tribunal in order to determine her marital situation. The marital question will need to be resolved prior to acceptance into the Church. However, it’s only relevant in the context of her life as a Catholic…

 

[1ke]

Judith & 1ke,

Hang on a second – I think we’re talking about two different things, here. Yes, I understand the difference between divine law and merely ecclesiastical law. However, the question at hand is culpability. Angel’s concern is that she’s in a state of sin – that is, that she is culpable for sinful acts.

Clearly, however, there’s a difference. Let’s take an extreme example or two: suppose a child, younger than the age of reason, kills someone. Is that killing objectively sinful? Yes. Is that child culpable – that is, in a state of mortal sin? No, because s/he is not held responsible for that action.

Or, perhaps, let’s take the case of someone (a non-Christian, perhaps) who never learned that sleeping around is sinful. Is there objective sin? Yes. Is that person held culpable for that sin? No – even though this is a transgression of divine law, there’s not culpability.

What I’m saying is simple: aside from the legal analysis of ‘divine’ and ‘ecclesiastical’ law, Angel is asking whether she’s held culpable at the present moment for her marital situation. If she weren’t thinking about entering the Catholic Church, the answer is simple: it reduces down to the equivalent question: “Are all re-married non-Catholic Christians going to hell?” It would seem that the answer is “no”, based on the way that the Church defines culpability. The fact that Angel is thinking about entering the Church adds some complexity to the question, but this is only with respect to how her entry into the Church is accomplished – she’ll need her marriages looked at by a tribunal in order to determine her marital situation. The marital question will need to be resolved prior to acceptance into the Church. However, it’s only relevant in the context of her life as a Catholic…

You are correct that while the OP did not know of the objectively grave nature of her situation, she had no culpability for sin.

She knows now. She cannot unknow. She is now responsible for her future actions with her current knowledge of the objecitvely grave nature of her marriage situation.

 

[Bookcat]

Judith & 1ke,

Hang on a second – I think we’re talking about two different things, here. Yes, I understand the difference between divine law and merely ecclesiastical law. However, the question at hand is culpability. Angel’s concern is that she’s in a state of sin – that is, that she is culpable for sinful acts.

Clearly, however, there’s a difference. Let’s take an extreme example or two: suppose a child, younger than the age of reason, kills someone. Is that killing objectively sinful? Yes. Is that child culpable – that is, in a state of mortal sin? No, because s/he is not held responsible for that action.

Or, perhaps, let’s take the case of someone (a non-Christian, perhaps) who never learned that sleeping around is sinful. Is there objective sin? Yes. Is that person held culpable for that sin? No – even though this is a transgression of divine law, there’s not culpability.

What I’m saying is simple: aside from the legal analysis of ‘divine’ and ‘ecclesiastical’ law, Angel is asking whether she’s held culpable at the present moment for her marital situation. If she weren’t thinking about entering the Catholic Church, the answer is simple: it reduces down to the equivalent question: “Are all re-married non-Catholic Christians going to hell?” It would seem that the answer is “no”, based on the way that the Church defines culpability. The fact that Angel is thinking about entering the Church adds some complexity to the question, but this is only with respect to how her entry into the Church is accomplished – she’ll need her marriages looked at by a tribunal in order to determine her marital situation. The marital question will need to be resolved prior to acceptance into the Church. However, it’s only relevant in the context of her life as a Catholic…

A person who has come to understand the realities that are involved - is no longer in any possible invincible ignorance. (In their struggles there may be some reduced culpability though).

They need to follow Christ as they have now come to realize they are to do.

The OP needs to work with the Church, seeking to avoid sin etc …it is certainly a difficult situation but with prayer, grace and the right counsel etc things can work out.

It is quite relevant now – not only when she is received into the full communion with the Catholic Church.

Angel – In Jesus of Nazareth is* true life* --he loves you. Cling to him and keep seeking full communion with the Catholic Church.

 

[mamaslo]

Once we are aware of sin then it becomes a choice. She has become aware and has accepted the truth of the matter.

I agree with the others, to talk to your Catholic priest. It is a delicate situation. Your OH (other half) loves you too and may realize that this is important.

I do know of a couple who are in the same situation as you, totally in love and know they are right for each other. They try. It’s hard. Sometimes they fail…then go to confession. But he is not Catholic, technically, and cannot receive absolution. She can. So it is difficult for them as well.

The intention of your heart is to follow the truth. I guess we cannot presume to be forgiven. But at the same time, we all fail. That is why we have a savior, in all of history, we just couldn’t get it right on our own.

So go see your Catholic Priest and talk to him. Talk to your OH and let him know how important this is for you. Use it as a time of relationship building. You love him for more than the one aspect. This would be a time to develop the friendship even more.

 

[Actaeon]

I have a problem and I need your advice… I am an Anglican I came to faith if that’s the right way of wording it last July but having read lots and listening to various apologists from both catholic and protestant persuasions I wish to convert to Catholicism.

Let me start by saying the most important thing first:

Welcome home to the arms of the Church!

In my studies I’ve discovered that I have to apply for an annulment of my first marriage. I was married at 18 and it lasted only 18 months before we divorced… I fully appreciate that I may not get my annulment but thats not what this post is about.

I hope this isn’t too presumptuous but I have to go with the train of thought that I will be granted my annulment, that I will succeed… God lead me to the Catholic Church he gave me the clear signs that this was the correct path I should take so I have to be hopeful here, though accepting of failure if it arises.

My issue is this I am remarried and have been for nearly 8 years though we have been together for 12 years and have two sons.

I now fully appreciate that I am currently living in mortal sin I am an adulteress… I also have a long wait by human standards for any ruling on my first marriage.

So here’s my problem I adore my husband and he does me but now I know that we are living in mortal sin I can no longer have marital relations with him, this is going to cause so many problems for both of us … so lets say I can pray through it (though I doubt as I know I’m not that strong) and have a fulfilling relationship that doesnt include sex …

So let me ask you something (and I mean this to sound ludicrous):

Is your marriage built on sex?

After all, you and your spouse have been together for TWELVE YEARS. Surely you love each other, surely it’s more than just a sexual convenience. I mean, I don’t mean to trivialize the act of giving up sex, but in a relationship such as yours, a period of abstinance should not be impossible or even that difficult. Have you discussed the circumstances with your husband? You might find he is completely willing to support you in this effort.

Yes, you will fail at times when you start trying, but don’t consider each failure as total… just use your failures as stepping stones to move forward. Who knows, you might even find that a period of abstinance is a chance to rediscover the deeper love you have for each other…

I’m still in trouble as I will be looking in lust at my husband, I can’t help that I love him, that I want him and that I find him attractive… so I’m still in sin and a sin that I don’t really want to be repentant of if I’m honest …

You have a very incorrect definition of lust here. Lust does not simply mean wanting to have sex with someone. It has less to do with sex itself and more to do with WHY we want sex… namely, objectification of a human being (and the denial of human dignity that goes along with that). It is possible to look at one’s validly married spouse with lust as much as it is to look at one’s boyfriend/girlfriend with lust.

To wit: lust is looking at someone as a means to the ends of sexual gratification… essentially dumbing their body down to an object which we use for our pleasure. Sure, there are varying stages of lust which begin much more mildly than that, but the core of lust is the use of another human being as an object.

Merely being sexually attracted to your spouse is not lust, even if your situation will make it harder not to dwell on those thoughts andd take them in a lustful direction… and yet this doesn’t have to be about lust! Perhaps, instead, you could view it as a spiritual exercise to root out lust that may have always been in your relationship, so that when your annulment comes through you are ready for a deeper and more catholic marital relationship with your husband.

Divorce was always an option I was taught by society and the Anglican church accepts divorce as an annulment so in my current tradition my marriage is alright in the sight of God … (yes I know that isn’t true… NOW)

I think we are all agreed on this forum that the moral teachings of society leave so many people in such difficult circumstances when they return to the truth in the Church…

So I don’t know what to do… whilst I wait for my annulment I’m living in sin no matter what I do

Again, not necessarily, and this may serve as a spiritual exercise in the meantime. You may need to go to confession repeatedly for any times that you falter, but your situation doesn’t mean you HAVE to live in sin. God has a way, though often difficult, for ALL of us to live without sin.

…if I die before that process is complete I’m damned. I don’t even want to tempt fate here and say the chances of me dying before the annulment comes through are very remote who knows when my final hour is and if it comes soon … I’m cooked… literally!

Again, not necessarily. If you avail yourself of the sacraments as often as you can and struggle heart and soul to live a good and Catholic life, you have every hope for salvation. God is just, but He is also compassionate and loving, merciful and kind, slow to anger. The devil’s greatest weapon in times of struggle is despair: the idea that no matter how hard you try you will fail and be damned.

So put your faith in God and kick that despair as far from you as possible!

I’m really rather scared to be honest

To this I have only one thing to say: love God, who tells us “Do not be afraid, I am with you always”