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ChiRho
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I already specified this
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Walking_Home
Guest
I have not seen nothing other – when I’ve been to the beach/pool – than girls/women in the water and/or getting some sun. There is no “indication” of some “dark” intent – so it is not a matter of “being selective”. Or are we as Christians just to assume some 'negative" intent on part of others.
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severus68
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Of course we are. Then we can hold ourselves out to be holier than holy.
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severus68
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I was not being boastful, I was stating a fact and making a point. Why give graphic descriptions of what is purportedly seen when you are so disturbed by it. Please do not PM me, say what you want to say here.
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Paddy1989
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Yes i fully agree, as i said sex appeal has become what is seen as fashionable and for most girl’s they believe therefore if they aren’t fashionable they aren’t attractive so yes i do believe it is merely to look good for themselves and even noticed by other’s in a good way however they do not understand the reality that they aren’t seen in the good way they desire. Some girl’s aswell like to be head turner’s though maybe to get attention from men in a good way simply because they desire one however they therefore don’t realize what many men are really thinking
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severus68
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So you think most women are stupid? Is that why you refer to all female persons as ‘girls’?
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Paddy1989
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No i never implied that, merely that some WOMEN
do not understand immodesty in these fashion’s. I remember watching a documentary on modesty on youtube, it was interviewing quite a number of Catholic men and women and most of the women said that when they used to dress immodestly they have no idea the sort of attention it would attract or what these fashion’s were intended to do
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kelvinf
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Subscribe
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Walking_Home
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No i never implied that, merely that some WOMEN
Oh yea – what a way to make a woman feel “responsible” – for lecherous men’s thoughts.
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Paddy1989
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I do not understand where you are coming from, if i was man promoting immodesty and objectification of women you would call me a pervert however because i defend modesty based on woman’s dignity and value i am still vilified?
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severus68
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I am sure the producers of that video was being very objective.No i never implied that, merely that some WOMEN
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L_piperatus
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I think these teachings by some of the Doctors of the Catholic Church (the 33 canonized Saints whom the Church regards as “doctors” or “teachers” of the Faith) are relevant:
**'You carry your snare everywhere and spread your nets in all places. You allege that you never invited others to sin. You did not, indeed, by your words, but you have done so by your dress and your deportment. . . When you have made another sin in his heart, how can you be innocent? Tell me, whom does this world condemn? Whom do judges punish? Those who drink poison or those who prepare it and administer the fatal potion?
You have prepared the abominable cup, you have given the death dealing drink, and you are more criminal than are those who poison the body; you murder not the body but the soul.
And it is not to enemies you do this, nor are you urged on by any imaginary necessity, nor provoked by injury, but out of foolish vanity and pride.’ **
St. John Chrysostom, Father and Doctor of the Church
**‘In all your movements, let nothing be evident that would offend the eyes of another.’ **
St. Augustine, Father and Doctor of the Church
**'Miserable is the man that gives scandal! Our Lord says: He that shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in Me, it were better for him that a millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea.
Is there the least glimmer of hope for a man who is cast into the sea with a millstone about his neck? The Gospel appears to say that there is no greater hope for the salvation of the authors of scandal.
St. John Chrysostom writes that the Lord is more inclined to show mercy to those who commit other more grievous sins, than to those who are guilty of the sin of scandal. What! says the Lord to the authors of scandal, are you not satisfied with offending me by your own sins? Do you wish to induce others also to insult me? In the Mirror of Examples, it is related that Jesus Christ said one day to a scandalous sinner, “Accursed wretch, you have despised what I have purchased by my blood.”
A mortal sin of scandal is committed by women who go about with their bosom immodestly exposed, or who expose their limbs improperly. Also by actors in immodest comedies, and still more by the persons who compose such comedies; also by painters who paint obscene pictures, and by the heads of families who keep such pictures in their houses. The father who speaks obscenely, or blasphemes the saints, in presence of his children, and the mother who brings into her house to live among her daughters young men who are in love with them, or betrothed to them, or other suspected persons, are guilty of a still more grievous sin of scandal. Some mothers say: do not suspect any evil. I answer, that it is their duty to suspect; otherwise they will have to render to God an account of all the sins which may follow.
Woe to that man by whom the scandal cometh. Listen to a horrible thing that happened in the city of Savona in the year 1560. I have read it in the chronicles of the Capuchins, and it is also related by Father Ardia. There was a woman who, even after marriage, did not cease giving scandal. This woman one day fell into a fit, and while she was in a state of unconsciousness, she saw the Lord condemning her to eternal fire. When she recovered the use of her senses, she did nothing but cry out, “Alas! I am damned, I am damned!” A confessor came to comfort her, but she answered, “What have I to do with confession? I am damned.” Then her daughter approached the bed, in order to encourage her, but she cried out: “Ah, accursed child! on your account, too, I am damned: for through you I have given scandal to others.” After these words the devils, in presence of all who were in the apartment, raised her up to the ceiling, and then dashed her so violently against the floor that she instantly expired.’ **
St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori, Doctor of the Church
**'You carry your snare everywhere and spread your nets in all places. You allege that you never invited others to sin. You did not, indeed, by your words, but you have done so by your dress and your deportment. . . When you have made another sin in his heart, how can you be innocent? Tell me, whom does this world condemn? Whom do judges punish? Those who drink poison or those who prepare it and administer the fatal potion?
You have prepared the abominable cup, you have given the death dealing drink, and you are more criminal than are those who poison the body; you murder not the body but the soul.
And it is not to enemies you do this, nor are you urged on by any imaginary necessity, nor provoked by injury, but out of foolish vanity and pride.’ **
St. John Chrysostom, Father and Doctor of the Church
**‘In all your movements, let nothing be evident that would offend the eyes of another.’ **
St. Augustine, Father and Doctor of the Church
**'Miserable is the man that gives scandal! Our Lord says: He that shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in Me, it were better for him that a millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea.
Is there the least glimmer of hope for a man who is cast into the sea with a millstone about his neck? The Gospel appears to say that there is no greater hope for the salvation of the authors of scandal.
St. John Chrysostom writes that the Lord is more inclined to show mercy to those who commit other more grievous sins, than to those who are guilty of the sin of scandal. What! says the Lord to the authors of scandal, are you not satisfied with offending me by your own sins? Do you wish to induce others also to insult me? In the Mirror of Examples, it is related that Jesus Christ said one day to a scandalous sinner, “Accursed wretch, you have despised what I have purchased by my blood.”
A mortal sin of scandal is committed by women who go about with their bosom immodestly exposed, or who expose their limbs improperly. Also by actors in immodest comedies, and still more by the persons who compose such comedies; also by painters who paint obscene pictures, and by the heads of families who keep such pictures in their houses. The father who speaks obscenely, or blasphemes the saints, in presence of his children, and the mother who brings into her house to live among her daughters young men who are in love with them, or betrothed to them, or other suspected persons, are guilty of a still more grievous sin of scandal. Some mothers say: do not suspect any evil. I answer, that it is their duty to suspect; otherwise they will have to render to God an account of all the sins which may follow.
Woe to that man by whom the scandal cometh. Listen to a horrible thing that happened in the city of Savona in the year 1560. I have read it in the chronicles of the Capuchins, and it is also related by Father Ardia. There was a woman who, even after marriage, did not cease giving scandal. This woman one day fell into a fit, and while she was in a state of unconsciousness, she saw the Lord condemning her to eternal fire. When she recovered the use of her senses, she did nothing but cry out, “Alas! I am damned, I am damned!” A confessor came to comfort her, but she answered, “What have I to do with confession? I am damned.” Then her daughter approached the bed, in order to encourage her, but she cried out: “Ah, accursed child! on your account, too, I am damned: for through you I have given scandal to others.” After these words the devils, in presence of all who were in the apartment, raised her up to the ceiling, and then dashed her so violently against the floor that she instantly expired.’ **
St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori, Doctor of the Church
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ChiRho
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"He that shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in Me, it were better for him that a millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea. " indeed
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Paddy1989
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As i said before this is all basic stuff to Catholic’s, i do not understand why some ignore it. I mean if they do not believe it to be true then they should debate why and hopefully we can come to a conclusion in all this
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ToeInTheWater
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Paddy1989, I would like some clarification as well. I understand that in order for a sin to be mortal, people have to know it’s a sin and deliberately choose to sin anyway, among other things. That people can’t mortally sin unintentionally, or by accident. You have stated that often, young women who dress immodestly have no idea the sort of attention it would attract. Well, if they have no idea about this, how could they be guilty of a mortal sin?
Yet, the post you quote with apparent approval does not make this distinction. So, do you think that these women are dressing immodestly but not meaning to cause scandal, are still culpable of it? That is, are they committing Mortal Sin that needs to be confessed? The people you quote seem to think so, that people can commit “the mortal sin of scandal” and be damned, regardless of whether they intend to lead others into sin.
Hmm, this seems to be another case of past saints and “Doctors of the Church” making statements that seem to be in conflict with current Church teaching…this actually is one of my barriers to crossing the Tiber…but as that would be OT, will not comment further.
Yet, the post you quote with apparent approval does not make this distinction. So, do you think that these women are dressing immodestly but not meaning to cause scandal, are still culpable of it? That is, are they committing Mortal Sin that needs to be confessed? The people you quote seem to think so, that people can commit “the mortal sin of scandal” and be damned, regardless of whether they intend to lead others into sin.
Hmm, this seems to be another case of past saints and “Doctors of the Church” making statements that seem to be in conflict with current Church teaching…this actually is one of my barriers to crossing the Tiber…but as that would be OT, will not comment further.
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Walking_Home
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Have you ever thought of how this applies to you – L piperatus – Paddy1989 etc. Think about it – people who wouldn’t go around paying attention to what others wear --like in church and/or thinking badly others–read what you – L piperatus – etc. post – and how this influences them – to turn and check out the “attire” of others – and think badly of them. Think – there is a millstone – in your sizes too.
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ChiRho
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you have no clue what I do – you’re making assumptions, which you claimed not to do just a few pages ago. You’re ignoring how this admonition of Christ’s deals specifically with matters in this thread: scandalizing others is sinful. I am well aware that Christ’s words apply to me as well. Perhaps you should also admonish the saints quoted above
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nonanon
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Who’s blaming? The sins are separate.
It seems that you think there is absolutely no such thing as immodest dress. Is that right?
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Walking_Home
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The saints spoke for their time and culture. And yes – someone can be led by you – L piperatus – Paddyi— to scrutinizing others attire – and think ill of them. So I am glad you are well aware how this applies to you to — and really start reflecting on this.
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ChiRho
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thank you for the opportunity. Do you think it also applies to you? Do you think it applies to people who dress immodestly?
Also, casting off the saints’ advice so casually as “they spoke for their time and culture” is pretty galling. You must not have read the quotes either – nowhere did they really mention specific modes of dress, just the instance of drawing others into temptation. Is that really a problem that existed in one age and is no longer relevant in the 21st century?
You’ll find that the basic problems of humanity have not really changed at all, and when I read St. Augustine’s Confessions I’m struck with how something written 1700 years ago is still so completely relevant and true in 2011. There is a bias we as a culture have, and even we as Catholics have against things that are in the past. The writings of saints are always relevant. They are not always true for every instance, but we are obliged to at least consider them thoughtfully instead of to place them in the corner like a quaint old relative, thinking they’re cute and well meaning, but not really important to listen to or heed
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