Sins of thought

[HenryV]

Sins of thought, like impure or uncharitable ones when do they become mortal sins, where goes the line between no sin, venial sin and mortal sin in this regard ?

 

[LilyM]

When you encourage them, dwell on them, enjoy them, make no effort to dismiss them when they happen …

As for whether they’re venial or mortal sin … I think it’s pretty hard for a mere sinful thought, that isn’t accompanied by any sort of desire or intent to physically act any sin out, to be a mortal sin.

 

[gvogt4]

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

When you encourage them, dwell on them, enjoy them, make no effort to dismiss them when they happen …

As for whether they’re venial or mortal sin … I think it’s pretty hard for a mere sinful thought, that isn’t accompanied by any sort of desire or intent to physically act any sin out, to be a mortal sin.

What did Christ say about the man who commits adultery with a woman in his heart? Is adultery mortal sin? Would not this mere sinful thought be mortal sin? Christ did not say anything about a desire to physically commit the sin, just the look is enough.

I am trying to understand your post with reference to His teaching. Please explain.

Dan

 

[LilyM]

What did Christ say about the man who commits adultery with a woman in his heart? Is adultery mortal sin? Would not this mere sinful thought be mortal sin? Christ did not say anything about a desire to physically commit the sin, just the look is enough.

I am trying to understand your post with reference to His teaching. Please explain.

Dan

Yes but the look is one of lust - which would seem to go beyond mere thoughts of finding a woman attractive or even sexually desirable (which thoughts are often quite involuntary) but a real dwelling on such thoughts.

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

Yes but the look is one of lust - which would seem to go beyond mere thoughts of finding a woman attractive or even sexually desirable (which thoughts are often quite involuntary) but a real dwelling on such thoughts.

Now I am really confused.

In post #2 ,you said that without the intent to physically act the sin out, a sinful thought wouldn’t be a mortal sin. In your last post, you seem to agree that lusting in one’s heart can be a mortal sin, regardless of whether there is intent to commit the sin physically.

Maybe I just misunderstand.

Is is possible for a willful thought of the mind to be a mortal sin, even if the sinner does not intent to act on it?

Dan

 

[stbruno]

I am sure we have all said this prayer…take note of these lines
I confess to almighty God, and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done and what I have failed to do; and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God. Amen.

You can sin by thought otherwise why would we ask for forgiveness for these sins? I think we all know when it becomes a sin…unless we are a sociopath without any guilty conscience.

 

[Contarini]

What did Christ say about the man who commits adultery with a woman in his heart? Is adultery mortal sin? Would not this mere sinful thought be mortal sin? Christ did not say anything about a desire to physically commit the sin, just the look is enough.

I am trying to understand your post with reference to His teaching. Please explain.

Dan

As I understand it, if you deliberately indulge the thought it is a mortal sin. This could be a pure fantasy with no intention of ever acting it out. I know when I am doing this, although of course there are borderline cases.

I think Lily’s point is that if you will the act then presumably you are only restrained from performing it by the fear of consequences. In the case of sexual thoughts, these consequences might be moral ones–i.e., harm to another person. Obviously that mitigates the seriousness of the sin (i.e., if you lust after a woman and would have sex with her if you were certain it wouldn’t do her any harm), but misusing the sexual impulse is (in traditional Christian theology) a grave sin in and of itself.

Still, I’m not sure I quite agree with this. Externalizing an act does make one think about it a bit and makes one less likely to commit it, but I’m not sure that means that fantasizing about an act one wouldn’t externalize can’t be a mortal sin.

A non-sexual example might be fantasizing about murdering someone you really dislike. You may not in fact hate the person enough to murder them, but still get pleasure from imagining them dead. If you deliberately do this out of hatred, even if you would never commit the act externally, I think it is a mortal sin.

However, presumably just thinking “so-and-so is annoying” or even wishing some minor inconvenience on them (the sort of come-uppance that usually befalls buffoonish villains in comedy, for instance) might be only a venial sin. I’m not sure exactly how this works.

Edwin

Edwin

 

[HenryV]

Now I am really confused.

In post #2 ,you said that without the intent to physically act the sin out, a sinful thought wouldn’t be a mortal sin. In your last post, you seem to agree that lusting in one’s heart can be a mortal sin, regardless of whether there is intent to commit the sin physically.

Maybe I just misunderstand.

Is is possible for a willful thought of the mind to be a mortal sin, even if the sinner does not intent to act on it?

Dan

Yes, if you dwell on it and find pleasure in it.
Impurity is always grave matter.

 

[LilyM]

Now I am really confused.

In post #2 ,you said that without the intent to physically act the sin out, a sinful thought wouldn’t be a mortal sin. In your last post, you seem to agree that lusting in one’s heart can be a mortal sin, regardless of whether there is intent to commit the sin physically.

Maybe I just misunderstand.

Is is possible for a willful thought of the mind to be a mortal sin, even if the sinner does not intent to act on it?

Dan

I didn’t say it couldn’t or wouldn’t be a mortal sin without intent to physically act on it, I said it’d be unlikely to be one.

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

I didn’t say it couldn’t or wouldn’t be a mortal sin without intent to physically act on it, I said it’d be unlikely to be one.

Lily,
I understand. May I try to convince you that it is quite likely?

For one, Christ was not even asked the question, but felt that it was important to teach that thoughts of adultery in a person’s heart were as wrong as adultery itself. If it was unlikely to occur, I don’t know that Jesus would have addressed it so clearly, and without being asked about it. We believe adultery to be mortal sin, so purposeful thoughts of adultery would seem to be mortal sin.

So, how often does this occur today? Well, of course, it is hard to read the hearts of men (and women), but consider this:

According to recently published research, roughly 40% of persons in the U.S. have committed physical adultery! I would suggest that it is reasonable to assume that these persons committed “adultery in their heart” long before they committed, or even intended, the real sin. 40% of adults in this country amounts to roughly 80 million people. And this does not include the number who have purposefully entertained such thoughts, but have not yet happened upon a willing partner.

The internet pornography business is approaching $50 billion a year in sales! Can someone, who willingly seeks out internet pornography, willfully gives their credit card number to the purveyor of such, and then spends hours each day looking at it, not really be committing adultery in their mind? How can they not be? The sheer magnitude of the number of people doing this would suggest that committing adultery in one’s mind is not unlikely at all, but happens with way to much frequency.

Is this a big deal? Perhaps. I would hate to be responsible for reducing one’s culpability to this type of sin by saying that it is unlikely to happen. I don’t think Jesus would have spoken as he did if it was unlikely.

Dan

 

[gvogt4]

2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.

2520 Baptism confers on its recipient the grace of purification from all sins. But the baptized must continue to struggle against concupiscence of the flesh and disordered desires. With God’s grace he will prevail

2514 St. John distinguishes three kinds of covetousness or concupiscence: lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and pride of life.301 In the Catholic catechetical tradition, the ninth commandment forbids carnal concupiscence; the tenth forbids coveting another’s goods.

2515 Etymologically, “concupiscence” can refer to any intense form of human desire. Christian theology has given it a particular meaning: the movement of the sensitive appetite contrary to the operation of the human reason. The apostle St. Paul identifies it with the rebellion of the “flesh” against the "spirit."302 Concupiscence stems from the disobedience of the first sin. It unsettles man’s moral faculties and, without being in itself an offense, inclines man to commit sins.303

 

[Mack_II]

So thinking about suicide could be just as bad as doing it unless you confess it, which of course you can’t do if you go through with it. I wonder how many people are afraid to confess thoughts of suicide who thus have invalid confessions because they are holding something back. I wonder how many people even think that thinking about suicide could be a mortal sin and would therefore not even dream of confessing it.

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

So thinking about suicide could be just as bad as doing it unless you confess it, which of course you can’t do if you go through with it. I wonder how many people are afraid to confess thoughts of suicide who thus have invalid confessions because they are holding something back. I wonder how many people even think that thinking about suicide could be a mortal sin and would therefore not even dream of confessing it.

Where did that come from? I don’t recognize this as Church teaching. Where do I go to study it?

Dan

 

[Chancellare]

What about the involuntary-ness of these thoughts? I’m not trying to mitigate the sin but in actual application of the definition of sin, the act must be free from a compelling factor.

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

What about the involuntary-ness of these thoughts? I’m not trying to mitigate the sin but in actual application of the definition of sin, the act must be free from a compelling factor.

I would not classify an involutary thought or vision as an act. If it is not an act, it is not sinful.

It is how we respond that is the act. And as an act, may be moral or immoral.

Dan

 

[Celeste88]

I find it difficult to believe sins of thought could be mortal sins. A court of law would not sentence a man for entertaining a thought of killing another man but only for the actual murder. If we were all tried for thought murder most of us would be on death row. Likewise, why would God sentence our soul to eternal damnation for thoughts of adultery, lust, murder, greed, etc? And shouldn’t the Evil One take some responsibility for putting those thoughts into our heads anyway?

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

I find it difficult to believe sins of thought could be mortal sins. A court of law would not sentence a man for entertaining a thought of killing another man but only for the actual murder. If we were all tried for thought murder most of us would be on death row. Likewise, why would God sentence our soul to eternal damnation for thoughts of adultery, lust, murder, greed, etc? And shouldn’t the Evil One take some responsibility for putting those thoughts into our heads anyway?

Very good questions. But in an attempt to answer them, you apply a very novel logic: Since the courts we humans have invented don’t (or can’t) do anything about it, they why would God?

This logic seems to be backwards. Even early justice theory acknowledges that human morals follow the divine plan, not vice versa. To constrain God by our imperfect and impotent human courts is strange reasoning. God does many things we can’t, or won’t, do.

One must be careful questioning God. Not that it can’t be humbly done, but we must realize that our intelligence and reasoning ability is infintesimal compared to God’s. If we have heard the will of God, but do not understand it, what fool thinks “Well, He must be confused, I know better”? The wise person thinks “I have heard what God says, understand that His wisdom is infinite, and mine pales in comparison, and that is why I do not YET understand.”

And what ‘responsibility’ did the “Evil One” take for Adam and Eve’s fall? And, more importantly, did it make any difference for Adam and Eve? “The devil made me do it” is just as ridiculous now as when Flip Wilson said it 40 years ago. We have a free will, it is a gift from God that he expects us to use for good. We have been given the freedom and grace to do what is right, and reject what is wrong, even in the face of temptation.

Dan

 

[BAIRBRE]

like you do something with good intent…but part of it might have a sinful outcome…

suppose you defended a good holy priest because he wasn’t being treated right.

the bishop wouldn’t do any thing…and i wanted the priest who was doing wrong to stop what he was doing. I wrote him a letter stating that it was not nice what he did to the priest and i told him that I would pray for him and I do…I

I’m not perfect, I am not a saint. I just thought a holy priest should be treated right and not be abused by lukewarm priest.

I am going to confession this week.