Sins within the marital act

[oneofmany]

I am a new Catholic, confirmed last year, and am still trying to figure out what is acceptable during the marital act. I saw a thread about this recently, and am confused. I ran across this article catholicplanet.com/CCSE/marriage-sins.htm where the author claims that any act that is not natural intercourse is a mortal sin.
I talked to my priest about this and he said everything is acceptable (except anal), as long as it ends with the husband completing the act in the wife the natural way.(Sorry, trying not to be graphic). I also suffer from scrupulosity, and I recently read a wonderful book called Understanding Scrupulosity, in which the author states when in doubt, trust your confessor.
My problem is, the author of the article I just mentioned said that some priests fall into the idea that certain acts of foreplay are okay, and that it’s a heresy, etc.
So, I’m caught wondering who’s right. But, of course, I trust my priest and think I should listen to him.
Any advice?

DoxieMama

Please be careful on what you read on the Internet. It would be good to research the person. My husband read something like this on the net and he found out the person was only speaking for himself and was in no way backed up by the Church.

I would also recommend you talk to more than one priest about this topic. One priest told me in the confessional that porn was ok within marriage and I have learned since then that porn is harmful, even in a marriage.

Another priest told my hubby that any type of foreplay is ok as long as it ends in intercourse. I think you will need to go from there on what you and your spouse are comfortable with but that seems to be the logical answer.

 

[fpt]

If you want I can list the existence of sexual rights of each member of the couple concerning the conjugal act, in the detail with all the subtleties and without taboo. I do this particular list, because of crazy and stupid intellectual approaches coming from some catholic lay persons, from some catholic philosophers and from some catholic theologians.

Each right, each obligation and each duty has its own moral regime for doing or not doing. The list of sexual offenses of the conjugal sex can be done, of course.

The fact of thinking the moral order of the conjugal act, in the details with all subtleties and without taboo is not very easy, even for some intelligent and smart persons. The unitary work linked to Roman Catholic Teaching on this topic is huge and it is very difficult.

Thus, you can understand the existence of some moral obligations of each one.

 

[agapewolf]

JPII actually wrote Theology of the Body.

 

[Xantippe]

JPII actually wrote Theology of the Body.

Yeah, I noticed that after I posted.

There are also apparently dozens of books not by JPII with “Theology of the Body” in the title, so it’s not purely a JPII thing, which is why I was confused. (“Theology of the Body” is kind of like “Chicken Soup for the…” in terms of the number of titles out there.)

 

[edlinked]

I haven’t read the posts on these thread but I will write a bit about my thoughts and understandings. After I read the posts I will add or subtract things lol.

The sexual act depends on Gods love, the standard from which it should come, is Gods love (like everything else). Never think that pleasures determine the act as good, because pleasures are for yourself. Pleasure doesn’t understand love, and worst when you are talking about Gods love. Pleasure is for yourself, Gods love is for others in a sense (works for the “welfare” of others).

In my understanding, the signature move in Gods love is sacrifice, and the commandments tell you to Love God most importantly, then love others like yourself, and then Jesus states to love others like He loves us. This means you will never do to someone you love something to hurt them. Keep in mind that when you get married, you do a vow to God saying something like you will definitely love (Gods love of course) this person. (Keep in mind that the commandments states to love everyone like yourself, but in marriage your responsibility for that one is a “little bit more”). The problem in sexual intercourse is that it is very easy to abuse, as one can receive pleasure but the other not necessarily, because erogenous zones give pleasure when stimulated, that’s how they work. (The point is you should never hurt others because of your pleasures).

When the church talks about anything it starts from the start, Gods love and it ends in Gods love, alfa and omega. God is love. So if you want to do what God wants, you need to do Gods love, because that is Gods way. So lets start to understand truly what is Gods love (i believe this is the important thing).

Every time you see “love” (how you should act toward others) in the bible, it always states to do more than you are accustomed to, but good things for the other ( where good is things that are good to God, not just to us, as our standards maybe wrong). (To do Gods way is to act Gods love, not that others act it for you)

Love and responsibility by Karol wojtyla is a great book for having an idea of what love is (it is “very close” to responsibility, but combines and integrates many more things).

Someone told me once: Life is like a race where God is the finish line (your objective), but it is so far away you can’t see it from where you begin. Gods love is the way you see the finish line (it guides you through the race). Time decides when the race finishes. The problem is that if you are realistic and pragmatic, love will not get to Gods love, because you will mark the line wherever you think it finishes. But in the race created by God, the one that states the finish line is the creator. God, He states the standards. So the way you can see the finish line is by Himself, with His help, Gods love. Because Gods love will force yourself to get to that finish line (Gods finish line), and not just to yours. When you decide where the finish line is by yourself or without understanding Gods love, you will stop running before the real goal or run without forcing yourself the way you need to get to that Real finish line, before the time is up.

Gods love will look for the other person welfare over yours by the simple act that you love the other.

I see some talk about debt, keep in mind what I wrote that love always makes us act more good toward the others, but analyze this:
“and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors;” Matthew 6, 12

“It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.” John 6 63

“What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I told you, ‘You must be born from above.’” “Amen, amen, I say to you, we speak of what we know and we testify to what we have seen, but you people do not accept our testimony. If I tell you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? No one has gone up to heaven except the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man.” John 3, 6-7, 11-13

“Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me.” Mathew 16, 24

“I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you and make you live by my statutes, careful to observe my decrees.” Ezekiel 36, 26-27

 

[edlinked]

I believe that our interiority and the way we approach things depends on what we believe and where we put our north (saints should be a safe bet).

“Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God. “ Mathew 5, 8

“So (also) husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one hates his own flesh but rather nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. Ephesians 5, 28-30”

“So be imitators of God, as beloved children, and live in love, as Christ loved us and handed himself over for us as a sacrificial offering to God for a fragrant aroma.” Ephesians 5 1-2

“He said to them, “Are even you likewise without understanding? Do you not realize that everything that goes into a person from outside cannot defile, since it enters not the heart but the stomach and passes out into the latrine?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.) “But what comes out of a person, that is what defiles. From within people, from their hearts, come evil thoughts, unchastity, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, licentiousness, envy, blasphemy, arrogance, folly. All these evils come from within and they defile.”” Mark 7, 18-23

“He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are an obstacle to me. You are thinking not as God does, but as human beings do.”” Matthew 16, 23

“Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains just a grain of wheat; but if it dies, it produces much fruit. Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will preserve it for eternal life. Whoever serves me must follow me, and where I am, there also will my servant be. The Father will honor whoever serves me. "I am troubled now. Yet what should I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? But it was for this purpose that I came to this hour.” John 12 24-27

“So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Mathew 5, 48

Would this be a small or big responsibility? Is it possible? I guess your decision will decide that.

 

[DoxieMama]

Thanks for all the replies everyone! What I am in fact referring to in my situation (without getting too graphic) is manual help from my husband DURING the act for myself to reach completion. This is something my husband very much wants for me and my Priest said it was okay, as long as the act ended the right way.
But, after reading that article on Catholic Planet, it said not even that was allowed. But, many of you stated I should trust my Confessor and I agree.

 

[Kelfa28]

Thanks for all the replies everyone! What I am in fact referring to in my situation (without getting too graphic) is manual help from my husband DURING the act for myself to reach completion. This is something my husband very much wants for me and my Priest said it was okay, as long as the act ended the right way.
But, after reading that article on Catholic Planet, it said not even that was allowed. But, many of you stated I should trust my Confessor and I agree.

You’re confessor is 100% correct.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having your husband help you out…by whatever means are comfortable and suitable for you…as long as the intimate act is completed.

In fact, this should be encouraged among all married couples. It satisfies the wife and gives her a closeness with her husband.

 

[oneofmany]

Thanks for all the replies everyone! What I am in fact referring to in my situation (without getting too graphic) is manual help from my husband DURING the act for myself to reach completion. This is something my husband very much wants for me and my Priest said it was okay, as long as the act ended the right way.
But, after reading that article on Catholic Planet, it said not even that was allowed. But, many of you stated I should trust my Confessor and I agree.

My advice is to get a good book on explaining how your body works, a secular book. It will tell you how a woman’s body reacts to sex. It doesn’t work the same way a man’s does, it you hadn’t noticed by now, LOL. It takes longer for a woman but you have a loving husband so that should be no problem and yes you do need manual help from your husband. Most husbands should enjoy this anyway. IMO I would forget what you read on that one web site, the person doesn’t seem to know how a woman’s body works.

 

[Xantippe]

My advice is to get a good book on explaining how your body works, a secular book. It will tell you how a woman’s body reacts to sex. It doesn’t work the same way a man’s does, it you hadn’t noticed by now, LOL. It takes longer for a woman but you have a loving husband so that should be no problem and yes you do need manual help from your husband. Most husbands should enjoy this anyway. IMO I would forget what you read on that one web site, the person doesn’t seem to know how a woman’s body works.

…or doesn’t care.

It’s humorous when somebody like that gets all upset when wives (who are physically getting a big fat nothing out of the marital act) decide they’d like to wash their hair that night instead.

Did not see that one coming.

 

[edlinked]

This is a difficult subject, so I guess we need to analyze and pray to God to help us on these matters. And it gets more difficult because of the way intercourse comes in the couples interaction and on how men and women think about it, where also society plays some role too. Because what is good is not determined on what today society thinks, but what is good to God, so in the means that society grows away from God (from the truth) things will only get harder. With this I am just stating that be careful with these matters (that involve pleasure) and try to be informed as much as you can so you can understand Gods love (as a couple), because in the way that we don’t, we can see things for our own convenience (that is how pleasure is, that’s its nature), and get to abuse our pleasures (at the possible expense of the other). (I am just saying this, just to help expand our views, and to let you know how things that probably come and can be done for one thing can help derail another (so we need to always be on the look out). That’s the problem of pleasure, it’s difficult to see the line we need to follow, but be sure it will never determine what is good).

We always need to remember that devils exist, and that if they try to tempt Jesus (the nerve), why do you think they will not tempt us. I think that the point is to be always wary. Isn’t sin closer with every baby step in the wrong direction, and the problem of sin is that it tries to deceive us from what is important. It makes us blind for Gods way.

I think that the acts are not bad explicitly because of the acts, but what an act associated with pleasure can do to your interiority, and this act becomes a problem because you will act what you have inside. The problem is that pleasure can distort what love protects, how you see the person, and distorts how much you “need” the “pleasure”. And this is important because maybe one thing that is not a problem for one of the couples for the other it can become, as our pleasures and pains can be felt just by yourself.

That’s why to help protect the person we need to understand that objectively the sexual drive finality is procreation, not pleasing, because the point at the end of the day is bringing a new life to this world. I think pleasure is not bad, but if you approach it like it can’t become bad, you will learn it can be very, very bad.

It’s interesting to learn if some sexual problems can be correlated to thinking too much on sex (meaning on guys), as for example, we know that when we think of something we like very much to eat, our mouths can get watery, implying a predisposition to that pleasure in a sense. Would this happen in the sexual aspect? It would be interesting to see if chastity, temperance, self mastery would help in that area, if one understood it since one was small. Normally it is implied that men thinking on sex is normal (on the standards of a society that don’t think God is whats good), but it is “normal” in as much as we don’t understand why would we need those attributes. Meaning that, in the case that we don’t think about sex, could it in fact help our sexual life later in marriage? It would be interesting to see if abstaining (a certain time) could be a possible solution. (Of course those attributes help as they help us see clearly what is important (the church even tells those are our north), but could that be a solution for other problems.)