Sirach 12:3-7? Please help!

[ChristinaAH]

I know I’ve been asking many questions about Sirach lately, but I’m just very confused. Are we truly not allowed to give comfort and help sinners? It would seem that way from the verses, but isn’t that exactly what Jesus did…? I know that in the OT people were supposed to love their friends and hate their enemies, but Jesus changed that so are we not supposed to follow these verses anymore?

Similarly, does Sirach 13 mean that it’s sinful to associate with sinners?

 

[Autumn-Smoke]

I think it might be helpful to read I Corinthians chapter 5 in regards to this. It says that we are not to be associating with Christians if they claim to be following Christ but are living contrary to the faith they profess. Paul says this doesn’t mean that we can’t associate with others in the world who don’t know Christ.

As far as Sirach, it says that we should not uphold the sinner or receive him. This means that we should not support them in their lifestyle. It doesn’t mean we can’t be kind to them or show them God’s love.

 

[Todd_Easton]

Haydock’s commentary on Sirach 12:3 says:

Ver. 3. For. Greek, ( 4. ) “Give to the pious, and receive not the sinner, ( 6. ) Do,” &c. (Haydock) — The gospel enjoins us to do good to all. St. Augustine (Dort. iii. 16.) and St. Thomas Aquinas (ii. 2. q. xxxii. a ix.) explain this in a spiritual sense, that we must not partake in the crimes of others. We may also make presents to the virtuous, and pass over people of a different character, particularly when they would abuse our gifts. The honest poor must be preserved.

The St Augustine reference (Dort. iii. 16) mentioned by Haydock seems to refer to his work On Christian Doctrine, Book 3, Chapter 16, here.

The St Thomas Aquinas reference (ii. 2. q. xxxii. a. ix.) mentioned by Haydock, refers to his Summa Theologiae, Second Part of the Second Part, Question 32 (Almsdeeds), Article 9 (To whom should we give alms? / Whether one ought to give alms to those rather who are more closely united to us?), here.

If you are new to reading St Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologiae, it can be a little confusing. Typically, in an article, he will propose a question, such as, To whom should we give alms? Then, in answer to the question, he first provides a number of erroneous opinions (objections). After that, he gives his own general answer to the question in the paragraphs beginning with the phrases, “On the contrary, …” and “I answer that, …” Lastly, he gives his replies to the various objections.

 

[ChristinaAH]

Thank you so much for your thoughtful answer! I was just wondering what you thought about Sirach 13? Thank you again

 

[ShowersofRoses]

Are we truly not allowed to give comfort and help sinners? It would seem that way from the verses, but isn’t that exactly what Jesus did…?

No, that’s not what it means. We are supposed to give comfort, care, and compassion to the poor and needy, just like Jesus, and that often includes people who are sinners. (But we’re all sinners, aren’t we?) All OT Scripture needs to be read in the light of the NT…you can’t read it out of context.

3 No good will come to the man who persists in evil
or to him who does not give alms.
4 Give to the godly man, but do not help the sinner.
5 Do good to the humble, but do not give to the ungodly;
hold back his bread, and do not give it to him,
lest by means of it he subdue you;
for you will receive twice as much evil
for all the good which you do to him.
6 For the Most High also hates sinners
and will inflict punishment on the ungodly.
7 Give to the good man, but do not help the sinner.

These verses are talking again about not supporting or helping sinners in their sin, being a participant in it, or being led into sin through it. They are also warning against giving gifts that will then just be used to turn around and hurt you.

When helping people, we must be wise as serpents and use common sense, otherwise you could be hurt. You have to use safety precautions because helping the poor often can often involve dangerous areas. You wouldn’t go to the homeless and flash a lot of cash around while handing out gifts…you have to be smart and careful, because there is evil in the world.

 

[therese1998]

It is also helpful to interpret passages in context with the entirety of the Bible. There are many passages and commentaries on how Christians are to treat each other and non-Christians. There is also a character to Jesus and His teachings. You need to read any individual passage within this character. The following passages are also found:

“Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.” Eph 4:32

“As it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;” Rom 3:100:

“Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?” Ezekiel 18:23

“In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.” Matt 5:16

“Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.” 1 John 4:8

And so on. Therefore, we need to interpret the single issue (how to treat sinners) within the context of the larger issue (how Jesus treated them and the numerous commandments to love and forgive). It’s not that one verse is “averaged out” by other verses (as I’ve heard people argue) so much as all commandments are filtered through His greatest commandment: Love the Lord God with all your heart, all your soul and all your strength and love your neighbor as yourself. That’s how I’ve learned it, anyway. Hope this helps.

 

[StarMapp]

In the OT they had a purpose. The Jews were justified by the law. We need to understand that God’s chosen were also chosen by Satan for selective treatment. On occasion he was “in their face” in cases like Job. The Jews had a tough go of it for hundreds of years and so God tolerated their sometime cold attitude to their brothers the gentiles. They were “hard hearted” and tolerated, but on occasion faced with extinction, he saw to it there would always be brighter days ahead.

In the NT, as of Pentecost we are now justified by Faith, including the Jews, but I would guess some tolerance will be extended for the same stubbornness , provided the case is one of a virtuous life.

I love Sirach. One of the Books that we can parallel similar conditions in our world, and straight forward as well. Sirach must have been a great teacher and much honored among the students. I like his paragraphs on social ethics and how to recognize sincere and virtuous people.