Siri Thesis Info Please

  • Thread starter Thread starter cwestall
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.

So in short you have it backward: there is no way you can disprove the issue. but it is not yours to disprove; it is theirs to prove and they have not done so.
Heresy never gets defeated by good men letting heretics re-attempt to prove themselves or even by allowing them to be repeatedly heard, but rather by challenging them and refuting them into oblivion. That’s how I understand the Church has dealt with this in history, by actively going out there and doing something to correct error. Take St. Athanasius and St. Basil the Great against the Arian Heresy. Take St. Augustine against Manichæism. Take St. Dominic against the Albigensian heresy. Take St. Louis Marie De Montfort against the Jansenist heresy. You get the drift.

This notion that one need not do anything to refute a particular argument, wherein instead the purveyor of the argument must prove his case, is a notion that is purely ideological and a theoretical construct that places responsibility of verifying truth on only one particular party instead of both of them. I don’t think such a notion is reflective of the character of the Church, but rather a reflection of the character of a secular court of law, who knows not God nor the active calling for the search for truth. This is why, for example, the Catholic Church during the Canonisation process has the Promoter of the Faith (Latin: Promotor Fidei) or Devil’s Advocate (Latin: advocatus diaboli) in order to argue against a case to test its quality and truth.

Remember, there are sins of omission as well as commission, and each Catholic is called to the SEARCH of the fullness of truth. This is an active thing, not passive. Therefore as I mentioned before, we Catholics have a responsibility to fight this, as the great Saints and Doctors of the Church has done so before us. It be unwise to follow in the example of Herod’s ignorance, but always like the three wise men searching for the truth of God, no matter how insignificant and wretched the destination may appear.

God bless.
 
Hi Chads,
It would be totally ignorant of me to say “It’s not true and I don’t believe it” without actually proving this to be the case. That is my endeavor, to defeat error and heresy where it strikes hardest. In this case, it is our beloved Church under attack, Her authority and Papal Succession under attack.
I know it’s easier for the mind to focus on other things within the Church, but it is harder on the conscious to let this slip, leave it unresolved and buried, so that it may continue to scandalize and to spread error, leading to many people leaving the common faith of the Catholic Church - that of which it has, as I have seen other forum members convinced of this being fact, while others like your good self convinced it is not.
All I’m looking for is solid canonical laws and Church teaching that will totally refute this beyond question and beyond a doubt, so this can be done with, like every other heresy in Church history.

God bless.
I’m not saying that we should ignore or just dismiss heresy. Yes heresy has been dealt with in the past forcefully and with good, sound and reasoned arguments.

For the casual dabbler in the Siri Thesis you could probably change his/her mind by simply showing errors. If these people have bought in to it whole scale you will find yourself repeating yourself and encountering the same arguments and evidence used in different ways over and over and over again. I suspect you’d then have better luck talking to a wall. At some point you’d have to say what I did in my earlier post “It’s not true and I don’t believe it.”

ChadS
 
I agree, Br. David. I have been involved in refuting a Catholic apologist who disseminates all sorts of conspiracy theories. One wonders why his followers keep coming back for more after it has been demonstrated over and over again that he’s not a trustworthy source. But then one of my friends summed it up: “They keep drinking the Kool-Aid because they like the Kool-Aid.”

Conspiracy theorists want to believe all these things. It’s a matter of the will, not of the intellect. Therefore, as you point out, attempts at refutation are futile.
2 Timothy 4:3-4 says it best.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
 
Heresy never gets defeated by good men letting heretics re-attempt to prove themselves or even by allowing them to be repeatedly heard, but rather by challenging them and refuting them into oblivion. That’s how I understand the Church has dealt with this in history, by actively going out there and doing something to correct error. Take St. Athanasius and St. Basil the Great against the Arian Heresy. Take St. Augustine against Manichæism. Take St. Dominic against the Albigensian heresy. Take St. Louis Marie De Montfort against the Jansenist heresy. You get the drift.

This notion that one need not do anything to refute a particular argument, wherein instead the purveyor of the argument must prove his case, is a notion that is purely ideological and a theoretical construct that places responsibility of verifying truth on only one particular party instead of both of them. I don’t think such a notion is reflective of the character of the Church, but rather a reflection of the character of a secular court of law, who knows not God nor the active calling for the search for truth. This is why, for example, the Catholic Church during the Canonisation process has the Promoter of the Faith (Latin: Promotor Fidei) or Devil’s Advocate (Latin: advocatus diaboli) in order to argue against a case to test its quality and truth.

Remember, there are sins of omission as well as commission, and each Catholic is called to the SEARCH of the fullness of truth. This is an active thing, not passive. Therefore as I mentioned before, we Catholics have a responsibility to fight this, as the great Saints and Doctors of the Church has done so before us. It be unwise to follow in the example of Herod’s ignorance, but always like the three wise men searching for the truth of God, no matter how insignificant and wretched the destination may appear.

God bless.
As you have noted, you are not a Canon lawyer (which has absolutely nothing to do with the issue; Canon law is not set up to refute heresies), nor a Doctor of the Church nor a theologian. Trying to deal with these people puts one in danger of going down the rabbit hole, where up is down and you have no time to say goodby - Hello!

They are not going to listen to you. They are convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that there is a vast conspiracy to suppress the truth; anything you do is simply proof to them that you are part of that conspiracy. They produce absolutely no proof anywhere at any time showing anything that supports their theory (possible white smoke excepted, and musings of twits); there never is a date, place and people present who can testify to these “secretly made cardinals”; they are never identified, of if identified, never do an act which can be construed that they acknowledge being made a cardinal; the list simply goes on and on. People who believe in conspiracy theories - and I mean the true believers - are not going to be convinced by you or me as to the real truth. Truth simply does not matter to them. They live in a different world than you or I, which is the one that is out to destroy what they believe to be true. If Cardinal Siri came out and swore on a stack of bibles, and took the most horrendous oath that he was never elected, it would do no good. It would simply be proof to them that he was “Under extreme pressure and threats”, that he was “coerced and forced” to make such claims; in other words, what could prove the truth to them would simply be more evidence of the conspiricy.

You do not have a duty to do anything other than to protect your own faith and sanity. The truth is out there for all to see. They need no further proof, and would not accept it if you offered it. And yes, very intelligent people can be mentally ill or mentally disabled. I have met one; I would call him a friend but our friendship basically has ended. He was a school teacher, with a Masters, a very likeable and good person. Somewhere he fell off the truck. I don’t know what did it; his wife and kids don’t know what did it, but he is obsessed with the issue - and obsession to the degree he has it is a very unhealthy sign. He flat out will not listen; anything you say he twists.

You can pray for these people. You are not equiped to deal with them and you do not have any duty to do so. Trying to do so is simply going to such you down a rabbit hole, one with a lot of frustration and not much else. The truth is already out there - the Church has been funtioning since Siri’s alleged election, and the bishops of the world - what 2300? - and the cardinals of the world all are supporting the election of the last 4 popes. None of them are going off on conspiracies, acting as if anytiing were amiss with the current pontiff or any of his predecessors. No further proof is needed for those how would hear. No Canon law pronouncements, no theologians. no Doctors of the Church are going to convince them of the truth. And sadly, neither are you.

Note: I may seem a bit harsh, but this is the reality. I think you may be very good-hearted, but no one is going to be able to supply you the key to unlocking their minds. You need to move on; if you are in contact with some of these folks, you need to move the discussion to something else, or like I did, simply move on. Keep them in your prayers, and don’t get tangled in their web.
 
As you have noted, you are not a Canon lawyer (which has absolutely nothing to do with the issue; Canon law is not set up to refute heresies), nor a Doctor of the Church nor a theologian. Trying to deal with these people puts one in danger of going down the rabbit hole, where up is down and you have no time to say goodby - Hello!

They are not going to listen to you. They are convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that there is a vast conspiracy to suppress the truth; anything you do is simply proof to them that you are part of that conspiracy. They produce absolutely no proof anywhere at any time showing anything that supports their theory (possible white smoke excepted, and musings of twits); there never is a date, place and people present who can testify to these “secretly made cardinals”; they are never identified, of if identified, never do an act which can be construed that they acknowledge being made a cardinal; the list simply goes on and on…
Excellent post. 👍

I was thinking something similar earlier but you mentioned it about these conspiracy “sources” that are almost always unnamed and are either afraid to come forward or the main source won’t name them. How do you argue against that?

ChadS
 
Excellent post. 👍

I was thinking something similar earlier but you mentioned it about these conspiracy “sources” that are almost always unnamed and are either afraid to come forward or the main source won’t name them. How do you argue against that?

ChadS
You can’t. the sources never come forward, becaue “they” would “get them”.

As in , here come the balck helicopters.

And your request to uncover the sources can be taken as a probe by “those in power”; it is self defeating.
 
Conspiricy theories are the only case where the lack of evidence is used as a proof of something.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top