Sister is planning on divorce

[dje101]

Hello everyone,

I need some advice. My sister’s marriage has been going downhill very fast over the last few months and it is now at the point that she wants a divorce. They are attending couples counseling as of yesterday; he wants to save the marriage but she is only attending so that he will come to the realization that divorce is inevitable (pretty much a direct quote). I am concerned about the effect this will have on the children (4 y/o boy & 1 y/o girl) long term.

Now, I am planning on going over to my sister’s tomorrow to discuss this with her. I told her that I have some concerns that I’d like to discuss. I am the only Catholic in my family, so this discussion will pretty much be non-religious entirely. I will be bringing some research I’ve found about the long-term effects divorce has on children in an effort to get her to stay with her husband and try to mend the marriage, at least for the children’s sake. This is not an abusive relationship, they are not in any danger…he simply hasn’t been there for her in any substantial way.

I just need some help and guidance I guess.

Do any of you have any resources that I could use in the discussion and possibly even forward to my sister?
How should I handle this, both tomorrow as well as long term?

 

[underacloud]

How should I handle this, both tomorrow as well as long term?

Very gently.

I don’t think showing her research is going to persuade her (unless she asks). Research rarely persuades people who have a firm mind towards something.

I’d suggest in the first instance, just talk to her about it. Instead of *telling *her that this won’t be good for her children upfront, ask her if she is concerned about the potential effects this will have on her children and how she plans to manage if she goes through with it. Try to get the conversation moving before dropping bombs on her about how much worse off children of divorce are, and how divorce is associated with much higher risk of poverty among children and women, emotional/psychological problems, etc.

You need to tread a fine line between telling her what’s best for her and her children, and helping to lead her to that conclusion for herself.

Good luck. It’s a tough one.

 

[Indigo_Cardinal]

In all honesty…don’t. Don’t bring research to the discussion that you feel backs up your belief that children of divorce are worse off. Your sister would likely interpret this as you came to lecture her, not support her. (And in all honesty, calling her and telling her that you have some concerns that you want to bring up with her pretty much smacks of planning to say, “I know better than you.”)

You said you are the only Catholic in your family, which means that divorce may be against your principles and your faith, but your sister (and presumably the rest of your family) may not view it this way. Trying to talk your sister out of the divorce may only come across as you trying to push your religious values on her, even if you are hiding it behind secular research.

You said that the relationship isn’t abusive, but that her husband hasn’t been there for her. You didn’t go into specifics, but she may have been giving him chance after chance to change this, and now he’s only wanting to save the marriage when she’s had enough.

There may also be more going on that you’re unaware of.

Unless your sister asks you directly, I think you’d be best off to keep your mouth shut.

 

[PaulfromIowa]

A mother with a four year old and a one year old planning divorce? Is it possible that she is suffering from postpartum depression?

 

[Xantippe]

As people have said, tread lightly. There may be a lot you don’t know. For instance, what if he has a 4-hour a day porn habit and won’t have sex with her, or some sort of other addictive and compulsive (and hence very hard to fix long-term) destructive behavior?

Here are some suggestions (but again, go lightly):

1. Suggest that she gives counseling a fair chance and make sure that both she and her husband do their homework. And encourage her to keep her husband in counseling until there has been a clear and sustained positive change.
2. A lot of couples have trouble after they add a second child, especially if mom has been doing everything. With a second child, it becomes clear that that division of labor is unfair. Feel free to ask your sister, “Do you want a divorce, or do you want more help at home?”
3. Early parenthood can be rough on both parents and the response to that may be counter-productive.

This article says that all new parents regardless of sex or being biological or adoptive parents show “postpartum” depression symptoms.

theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/04/postpartum-depression-can-happen-to-any-parent/360918/

In fact, in the first 5 years of parenthood, they say that fathers’ depressive symptoms increase by 68%. As it happens, your BIL is right in that demographic. It’s not at all unlikely that his “not being there” behaviors are symptoms of depression. So, encourage your sister to get him to a doctor to be evaluated for depression (and of course other health issues that may be slowing him down). If he’s balky, she can use the marriage counseling as her leverage. It’s for his own good.

Remember to be on her side. You are her sister, you understand she’s struggling and she wants to make her life better. Give her some hope about how to accomplish that within her marriage.

Good luck!

 

[Xantippe]

A mother with a four year old and a one year old planning divorce? Is it possible that she is suffering from postpartum depression?

Oh yeah, and that too.

Both of these parents may have some sort of undiagnosed issues and they are definitely in one of the most challenging seasons of parenthood.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Hello everyone,

I need some advice. My sister’s marriage has been going downhill very fast over the last few months and it is now at the point that she wants a divorce. They are attending couples counseling as of yesterday; he wants to save the marriage but she is only attending so that he will come to the realization that divorce is inevitable (pretty much a direct quote). I am concerned about the effect this will have on the children (4 y/o boy & 1 y/o girl) long term.

Now, I am planning on going over to my sister’s tomorrow to discuss this with her. I told her that I have some concerns that I’d like to discuss. I am the only Catholic in my family, so this discussion will pretty much be non-religious entirely. I will be bringing some research I’ve found about the long-term effects divorce has on children in an effort to get her to stay with her husband and try to mend the marriage, at least for the children’s sake. This is not an abusive relationship, they are not in any danger…he simply hasn’t been there for her in any substantial way.

I just need some help and guidance I guess.

Do any of you have any resources that I could use in the discussion and possibly even forward to my sister?
How should I handle this, both tomorrow as well as long term?

I was arguing against Catholic recognition of any other marriage that was not sacramental between two Catholics on another thread. This is an example of why that would be a viable option. The word “marriage” has a different understanding in different settings in today’s world. In my opinion you should limit your questions to your relative to a discussion about the kids and/or honor of a vow. And I would not expect it to change a single thing. Honestly, I would not even address it. What good will come from it?

 

[QuestLove]

Hello everyone,

I need some advice. My sister’s marriage has been going downhill very fast over the last few months and it is now at the point that she wants a divorce. They are attending couples counseling as of yesterday; he wants to save the marriage but she is only attending so that he will come to the realization that divorce is inevitable (pretty much a direct quote). I am concerned about the effect this will have on the children (4 y/o boy & 1 y/o girl) long term.

Now, I am planning on going over to my sister’s tomorrow to discuss this with her. I told her that I have some concerns that I’d like to discuss. I am the only Catholic in my family, so this discussion will pretty much be non-religious entirely. I will be bringing some research I’ve found about the long-term effects divorce has on children in an effort to get her to stay with her husband and try to mend the marriage, at least for the children’s sake. This is not an abusive relationship, they are not in any danger…he simply hasn’t been there for her in any substantial way.

I just need some help and guidance I guess.

Do any of you have any resources that I could use in the discussion and possibly even forward to my sister?
How should I handle this, both tomorrow as well as long term?

I would say since they are in counselling, let the expert deal with the couple and their marriage problems. Your sister has a lot on her plate especially with such young kids and a marriage that is failing.
Please do not go over to her house with a bunch of pamphlets and religious articles (I am sure she knows the divorce statistics and your views on the subject). Try to be understanding and supportive of your sister during this difficult time. Unless she has some ulterior motive, most women are usually hesitant to get a divorce, especially with young kids in the mix. Barring these ulterior motives, there may be something she is not sharing with you. And I guarantee you, she will get confrontational if you head over to her house with the motive of talking her out of getting a divorce.

 

[IrishAm]

…he simply hasn’t been there for her in any substantial way.

That can be a pretty big deal. And abusive in its own way.

 

[EasterJoy]

I guess I’d say–talk to me. You wouldn’t be doing something this expensive and this likely to hassle you and Bobby and Whitney for the rest of your lives unless you felt you had a good reason. Tell me about how you’re feeling.

And then listen. Everything you say ought to be only to encourage her to elaborate. Try very hard not to put anything loaded or accusatory into what you say. Do not cross-examine her. And then bite your tongue and go off and think about what she had to say before you load a lot of advice onto her.

She is not going to give you the standing to talk and lecture when you haven’t listened first, and listened with great sensitivity and respect for her.

 

[dje101]

In all honesty…don’t. Don’t bring research to the discussion that you feel backs up your belief that children of divorce are worse off. Your sister would likely interpret this as you came to lecture her, not support her. (And in all honesty, calling her and telling her that you have some concerns that you want to bring up with her pretty much smacks of planning to say, “I know better than you.”)

You said you are the only Catholic in your family, which means that divorce may be against your principles and your faith, but your sister (and presumably the rest of your family) may not view it this way. Trying to talk your sister out of the divorce may only come across as you trying to push your religious values on her, even if you are hiding it behind secular research.

You said that the relationship isn’t abusive, but that her husband hasn’t been there for her. You didn’t go into specifics, but she may have been giving him chance after chance to change this, and now he’s only wanting to save the marriage when she’s had enough.

There may also be more going on that you’re unaware of.

Unless your sister asks you directly, I think you’d be best off to keep your mouth shut.

So, just because I happen to be Catholic automatically means I can’t try to talk my sister out of divorce because that would be “pushing my religious values on her”? I can’t just be a concerned brother and uncle?

And yes, she did ask me my opinion. I didn’t just call her up and say that I’d like to talk to her about this. She sent me a text about the divorce and I asked if she was 100% sure she was getting one, to which she responded that she was 99.99999%, and then asked why I ask. When I didn’t respond (because I got caught up at work), she re-texted me the next day asking me why I was asking that. I just said that I have a couple of concerns and she asked what they were.

 

[dje101]

A mother with a four year old and a one year old planning divorce? Is it possible that she is suffering from postpartum depression?

Some post partum depression, yes, but the problems behind it have been on-going for some time.

 

[dje101]

As people have said, tread lightly. There may be a lot you don’t know. For instance, what if he has a 4-hour a day porn habit and won’t have sex with her, or some sort of other addictive and compulsive (and hence very hard to fix long-term) destructive behavior?

Here are some suggestions (but again, go lightly):

1. Suggest that she gives counseling a fair chance and make sure that both she and her husband do their homework. And encourage her to keep her husband in counseling until there has been a clear and sustained positive change.
2. A lot of couples have trouble after they add a second child, especially if mom has been doing everything. With a second child, it becomes clear that that division of labor is unfair. Feel free to ask your sister, “Do you want a divorce, or do you want more help at home?”
3. Early parenthood can be rough on both parents and the response to that may be counter-productive.

This article says that all new parents regardless of sex or being biological or adoptive parents show “postpartum” depression symptoms.

theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/04/postpartum-depression-can-happen-to-any-parent/360918/

In fact, in the first 5 years of parenthood, they say that fathers’ depressive symptoms increase by 68%. As it happens, your BIL is right in that demographic. It’s not at all unlikely that his “not being there” behaviors are symptoms of depression. So, encourage your sister to get him to a doctor to be evaluated for depression (and of course other health issues that may be slowing him down). If he’s balky, she can use the marriage counseling as her leverage. It’s for his own good.

Remember to be on her side. You are her sister, you understand she’s struggling and she wants to make her life better. Give her some hope about how to accomplish that within her marriage.

Good luck!

I appreciate the article, but I can say with certainty that he is not suffering from depression. Simply put, he has been a very selfish guy for the past 11 years, the entire time they’ve been together, and my sister is just at the point that she doesn’t want to deal with it anymore. But she never really brought these issues up to him in a constructive manner. So, in the course of the last 3 months, everything has come to light about how she feels (just shy of telling him that she wants a divorce), but she doesn’t want to work on the marriage.

While he is a very frustrating guy, I don’t feel like he’s been given a fair chance at trying to work things out. Everyone has let him be the way he is for quite some time and then all of a sudden, my sister is tired of it and she wants a divorce.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

So, just because I happen to be Catholic automatically means I can’t try to talk my sister out of divorce because that would be “pushing my religious values on her”? I can’t just be a concerned brother and uncle?

And yes, she did ask me my opinion. I didn’t just call her up and say that I’d like to talk to her about this. She sent me a text about the divorce and I asked if she was 100% sure she was getting one, to which she responded that she was 99.99999%, and then asked why I ask. When I didn’t respond (because I got caught up at work), she re-texted me the next day asking me why I was asking that. I just said that I have a couple of concerns and she asked what they were.

I don’t think anyone is saying that. I think people are pointing out that your sister does not share your faith or understanding of marriage and that you perhaps do not have the proper relationship with her to have a fruitful discussion about this. An idea that has further red flags when you start bringing “text” messages into the fray.

I think people are pointing out that you have little chance of success and an even higher chance of doing further damage to your sister if she is put off by you.

But you seem to have already decided what to do. So I guess all we can ask for is an update later if your sister does not decide to get a divorce and converts based on your magic words to her…

 

[dje101]

I would say since they are in counselling, let the expert deal with the couple and their marriage problems. Your sister has a lot on her plate especially with such young kids and a marriage that is failing.
Please do not go over to her house with a bunch of pamphlets and religious articles (I am sure she knows the divorce statistics and your views on the subject). Try to be understanding and supportive of your sister during this difficult time. Unless she has some ulterior motive, most women are usually hesitant to get a divorce, especially with young kids in the mix. Barring these ulterior motives, there may be something she is not sharing with you. And I guarantee you, she will get confrontational if you head over to her house with the motive of talking her out of getting a divorce.

I wouldn’t be bringing any religious pamphlets or articles. I was just going to show her a couple of scholarly articles about divorce negatively effecting children at such a young age. And in all honesty, that is only because she told me that she’d rather get a divorce now rather than later because she didn’t want her kids to be scarred with the memory of the divorce. I wanted to show her that, young or not, the divorce could still negatively effect her children in the long run.

 

[EasterJoy]

I appreciate the article, but I can say with certainty that he is not suffering from depression. Simply put, he has been a very selfish guy for the past 11 years, the entire time they’ve been together, and my sister is just at the point that she doesn’t want to deal with it anymore. But she never really brought these issues up to him in a constructive manner. So, in the course of the last 3 months, everything has come to light about how she feels (just shy of telling him that she wants a divorce), but she doesn’t want to work on the marriage.

While he is a very frustrating guy, I don’t feel like he’s been given a fair chance at trying to work things out. Everyone has let him be the way he is for quite some time and then all of a sudden, my sister is tired of it and she wants a divorce.

Keep in mind that if he has been “a very selfish guy for the past 11 years,” the entire time they’ve been together, that even from a Catholic perspective he may not have given consent to the commitment your sister ought to have been able to assume he was making on the day they married.

I find it very hard to believe that she has never said a peep about his refusal, failure, or inability to fulfill the basic requirements of married life. She may have hung in there a long time without threatening divorce, but there is no reason he can complain that he didn’t know he was sorely in need of amendment because she had never threatened to leave before.

At any rate, whatever you do, do not come rushing in as some authority on what was or was not a “fair chance” to fulfill the duties of marriage. Was the whole world keeping it a secret from him that he routinely frustrates (fails to meet the reasonable expectations) of others? Did his wife lead him to believe that she was some exception, that she did not need to have him treat her as a husband ought to treat his wife? I doubt that.

The poster who said that helping this couple to sort out what is and is not “fair” belonged to a trained marriage counsellor was exactly correct. Don’t rush to judge either your sister or her husband. Realize that either or both may be responsible for this, if only responsible because of incapacity. Your sister will need your support. It is fine to be a proponent of preserving marriage–even secular people recognize all the advantages in getting a marriage right the first time, so as to not lose half one’s wealth, to lose supervision over how the other parent raises the children when they are in his custody, and to not have any “ex” out there to deal with–but most of all be a proponent of the assumption that your sister did not deserve to have had all the work of making this marriage work placed on her for over a decade. She has a legitimate complaint and may have legitimate reason for concluding that she has seen too many of the chances she gave her husband squandered. It may really be too late, and it may not be her fault. She has limited emotional resources; those do run out, sometimes. Don’t ever imply that you know otherwise.

 

[dje101]

Keep in mind that if he has been “a very selfish guy for the past 11 years,” the entire time they’ve been together, that even from a Catholic perspective he may not have given consent to the commitment your sister ought to have been able to assume he was making on the day they married.

I find it very hard to believe that she has never said a peep about his refusal, failure, or inability to fulfill the basic requirements of married life. She may have hung in there a long time without threatening divorce, but there is no reason he can complain that he didn’t know he was sorely in need of amendment because she had never threatened to leave before.

At any rate, whatever you do, do not come rushing in as some authority on what was or was not a “fair chance” to fulfill the duties of marriage. Was the whole world keeping it a secret from him that he routinely frustrates (fails to meet the reasonable expectations) of others? Did his wife lead him to believe that she was some exception, that she did not need to have him treat her as a husband ought to treat his wife? I doubt that.

The poster who said that helping this couple to sort out what is and is not “fair” belonged to a trained marriage counsellor was exactly correct. Don’t rush to judge either your sister or her husband. Realize that either or both may be responsible for this, if only responsible because of incapacity. Your sister will need your support. It is fine to be a proponent of preserving marriage–even secular people recognize all the advantages in getting a marriage right the first time, so as to not lose half one’s wealth, to lose supervision over how the other parent raises the children when they are in his custody, and to not have any “ex” out there to deal with–but most of all be a proponent of the assumption that your sister did not deserve to have had all the work of making this marriage work placed on her for over a decade. She has a legitimate complaint and may have legitimate reason for concluding that she has seen too many of the chances she gave her husband squandered. It may really be too late, and it may not be her fault. She has limited emotional resources; those do run out, sometimes. Don’t ever imply that you know otherwise.

I’m not implying that I know everything, and I apologize to everyone if it came across that way.

All I was going to do was encourage her to actually give the marriage counseling a try. She and my family are making light of her choice to have a divorce and I don’t think they are thinking of her children. My sister sent me a picture of a “divorce party cake”, and when my wife, mother and I were discussing birthday party plans for my sister, my mother told my wife that she should plan my sister’s divorce party. They are making lite of this and I while I know my sister has had it rough for quite some time, she also hasn’t actually given this marriage counseling a try nor is she going to it to actually work on marriage. Its just so he will “come to a realization that a divorce will happen”. I am just going to encourage her to actually give it a shot for the sake of her kids.

 

[frobert]

Hello everyone,

I need some advice. My sister’s marriage has been going downhill very fast over the last few months and it is now at the point that she wants a divorce. They are attending couples counseling as of yesterday; he wants to save the marriage but she is only attending so that he will come to the realization that divorce is inevitable (pretty much a direct quote). I am concerned about the effect this will have on the children (4 y/o boy & 1 y/o girl) long term.

Now, I am planning on going over to my sister’s tomorrow to discuss this with her. I told her that I have some concerns that I’d like to discuss. I am the only Catholic in my family, so this discussion will pretty much be non-religious entirely. I will be bringing some research I’ve found about the long-term effects divorce has on children in an effort to get her to stay with her husband and try to mend the marriage, at least for the children’s sake. This is not an abusive relationship, they are not in any danger…he simply hasn’t been there for her in any substantial way.

I just need some help and guidance I guess.

Do any of you have any resources that I could use in the discussion and possibly even forward to my sister?
How should I handle this, both tomorrow as well as long term?

The very best thing you can do is to listen, sympathize and emphasize but not offer ANY advice. If you can help her to reminisce about the better parts of her marriage it may sway her to rethink the divorce. Other than that no matter what her choice is she may likely regret it and if you are instrumental in her making her choice she may very well turn on you in the future.

 

[KnitNut]

…and yet where have you been for the past 11 years? It seems a bit late in the game for you to be jumping in, you know. Even you admit it has been 11 very long years for her…but only now you’re riding in to tell her (basically) that she’s doing it wrong? Do you really think she’s NOT thinking of her kids? The fact that she stuck it out this long says just the opposite…and my personal guess would be that she’s seeing that his continued whatever-is-going-on is harming the kids. So at the very least, getting them out of an obviously dysfunctional environment is an important step. He wants to work it out? Let him show, on his own, that he’s ready for change and willing to walk the walk for a year or so…without exposing the kids to daily harm. Then maybe she can take him back.

BTW, I don’t believe Catholicism opposes divorce. Just the remarriage thing. So she’s not wrong, even by your own faith, to take action to ensure a safe, happy, healthy environment for her children as well as for herself.

 

[dje101]

I feel like I’m in a tough spot…

Everyone in my immediate family is supportive of the divorce, except me just because she hasn’t given the counseling a go. And consensus here is that I shouldn’t say anything.

Should I just lie and say “go for it”? Should I just not say anything until someone flat out says “do you support the divorce”? And at that point, how can I show support for my sister without showing support for the divorce, if that’s at all possible?