Site of Mary's Assumption

[Hesychios]

I believe it is because the resurrection term used in the Latin Church, other than for Our Lord, generally refers to the end of the world.

Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1001 When? Definitively “at the last day,” “at the end of the world.” [555] Indeed, the resurrection of the dead is closely associated with Christ’s Parousia: For the Lord himself will descend from heaven, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [556]

I think that the early Christians thought they were in the last days, and really believed she was among the first to resurrect, as an example and encouragement to us all. This is what is meant by ‘first fruits’.

If we say this was not part of the general resurrection, we say she doesn’t need it, and this was not an example to us but instead an emphasis of how different she was. Building the gulf between her and us and between the old Christianity and the new.

I think the idea that she doesn’t need to be included in the general resurrection is dangerous.

 

[Vico]

I think that the early Christians thought they were in the last days, and really believed she was among the first to resurrect, as an example and encouragement to us all. This is what is meant by ‘first fruits’.

If we say this was not part of the general resurrection, we say she doesn’t need it, and this was not an example to us but instead an emphasis of how different she was. Building the gulf between her and us and between the old Christianity and the new.

I think the idea that she doesn’t need to be included in the general resurrection is dangerous.

It was a choice not to define her death. I read that the majority belief of the bishops in the western tradition is that Mary died.

 

[coco2]

The tradition of Mary’s Dormition and Assumption in the East is older than any other. It was never defined because it was always believed liturgically i.e. lex orandi, lex credendi.

As to the place from whence she was assumed into heaven, there is also a dispute over where the Place of the Skull really was.

It should not be a problem.

Alex

Are you saying that the Orthodox and Catholics disagree on the Place of the Skull? I thought that was Protestants and Catholics that disagreed on that. I don’t consider Orthodox Christians, Protestants.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Genesis:1:6
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of of the waters, and let it seperate the waters from the waters.And God made the firmament…And God called the firmament Heaven.

Heaven described is the cosmos in your quotes.
The gates of heaven were closed until the Resurrection.

Also paradise means Garden, the only word in the bible from “Farsi”
Luke23:43 “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

This is not the first time someone has applied the quotes to disapprove that "Heavens Gates "were closed. Jesus death on the cross enabled mankind to enter heaven.
Prior to his death souls waited in “limbo”,/ Purgatory, shut out from heaven until the Ultimate Sacrifice was made!

Thomas, The Fall doesn’t happen until Genesis 3. When God separated the heavens from the earth in Genesis 1, it was to form the sky and the ground. Not to place a barrier between heaven and earth. Why would God want to place a barrier between heaven and earth before man was even created?

Also, are you telling me that it is impossible for God to bring someone body and soul from earth into heaven during the Old Testament?

 

[thomas_jd]

Thomas, The Fall doesn’t happen until Genesis 3. When God separated the heavens from the earth in Genesis 1, it was to form the sky and the ground. Not to place a barrier between heaven and earth. Why would God want to place a barrier between heaven and earth before man was even created?

Also, are you telling me that it is impossible for God to bring someone body and soul from earth into heaven during the Old Testament?

You are asking the wrong person why Genesis was written."Gen 1:8 “And God called the firement Heaven.” Perhaps you will get a better understanding if you read the chapter again.
I believe God is “Omnipotent”
We have the heaven mentioned in Genesis 1 and also the heaven mentioned in the the opening line of the “Our Father…who art in heaven.” Clearly a discription of two different sites.

The Apostles Creed …“descended into hell”
We also have two definitions of hell.
1> Absence of God
2> site of the damned

Constantine ,as I said earlier, this is not the first explaniation on this site.
I am sorry if I cannot explain this to you but think on this: The gates of heaven were closed until after our Lords death.

 

[ConstantineTG]

You are asking the wrong person why Genesis was written."Gen 1:8 “And God called the firement Heaven.” Perhaps you will get a better understanding if you read the chapter again.
I believe God is “Omnipotent”
We have the heaven mentioned in Genesis 1 and also the heaven mentioned in the the opening line of the “Our Father…who art in heaven.” Clearly a discription of two different sites.

The Apostles Creed …“descended into hell”
We also have two definitions of hell.
1> Absence of God
2> site of the damned

Constantine ,as I said earlier, this is not the first explaniation on this site.
I am sorry if I cannot explain this to you but think on this: The gates of heaven were closed until after our Lords death.

I am not contesting that the gates of heaven were closed. But this occurred after The Fall and not during the creation of the universe in Genesis 1. Also, God is God. He can bring people into heaven if he wills. Perhaps in the Old Testament the only way to bring people to heaven is not to subject them to death on earth, that is why Enoch and Elijah was taken into heaven without dying. Scripture is very clear that Elijah and Enoch were taken to heaven, I don’t know how else you can argue with that. God wanted that to happen, and thus it happened. Who are we to say it cannot happen when God so wills it?

 

[Hesychios]

Are you saying that the Orthodox and Catholics disagree on the Place of the Skull? I thought that was Protestants and Catholics that disagreed on that. I don’t consider Orthodox Christians, Protestants.

I don’t think Alex was suggesting that.

But the comparison is appropriate.

Just as modern Protestants might mythologize and come to believe some place (like the crucifixion and tomb of Christ) is other than what the very most ancient tradition points to, so also modern Roman Catholics could do the same when it comes to the site of Saint Mary’s tomb and resurrection.

 

[TrueLight]

After Mary’s assumption, body and soul, into heaven, she appeared to the Apostles when they were having supper. At that time, she told them of her constant intercession for them and for all members of the Church, the Body of Christ and indicated to them a prayer of intercession that she will always hear when they said it: Most Holy Theotokos, help us!

Hi Alex, can you give a reference for the above?

 

[Vico]

There is something unusual about the second night and day of creation, the absence of the phrase “and God saw that it was good”. It may be that the waters above are the heavens, and the waters below are the physical world, because in day 3 there are waters under the heavens.

There is speculation that that God called not the second day good because He knew the evil that was coming after that division. Yet, he does call everything good at the end of the sixth day (Gen 1:31), so maybe not.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Hi Alex, can you give a reference for the above?

Not Alex, but I can at least affirm that it’s a common teaching among Eastern Christians in general. I’m not sure if I can dig up a source, however.

 

[Halyna]

I was taught that Mary did die& taken to Heaven body &soul by her son, Jesus. She did literally die in the sight of St John. He put her in the tomb as is the custom but as the rest of the apostles came to pray at her site, her body ‘disappeared’ and her sash floated down to them as they were praying.

So Mary did die, was laid in a “resting place” but was taken bodily to heaven by her own son. and she left a sign to those by means of her belt.

There are visionaries who explain this (Valtorta, Mary of Agreda_ and others).

She did die,in her home,was laid to rest in a tomb, but her body was taken up.
These shows are not explaining a time difference between her death, her being laid (tomb was not closed) and the ‘disappearance’ of her body.

Keep in mind secular TV will not have full and complete and true details.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I was taught that Mary did die& taken to Heaven body &soul by her son, Jesus. She did literally die in the sight of St John. He put her in the tomb as is the custom but as the rest of the apostles came to pray at her site, her body ‘disappeared’ and her sash floated down to them as they were praying.

…

I read a similar tradition in an Italian travel book [the Michelin guide I think] many years ago. They said that all the apostles, except Thomas, put her in the tomb. When Thomas, always late, arrived a few days later he went to the tomb and found it empty. Mary appeared to him and gave him her sash as proof of her assumption. The sash is kept in a church a bit to the north of Rome. I wanted to go there, but it is off the main route and we wanted to get to Rome for the night.

 

[Hesychios]

I read a similar tradition in an Italian travel book [the Michelin guide I think] many years ago. They said that all the apostles, except Thomas, put her in the tomb. When Thomas, always late, arrived a few days later he went to the tomb and found it empty. Mary appeared to him and gave him her sash as proof of her assumption. The sash is kept in a church a bit to the north of Rome. I wanted to go there, but it is off the main route and we wanted to get to Rome for the night.

The legend as you recount it is very similar to the Orthodox eastern account, which is associated with a Jerusalem tomb. The account I read was that the sash fell from the sky. I am sure there would be many variations on the story.

I don’t know how the sash wound up in Italy, did they mention that?

 

[Joe_Kelley]

The legend as you recount it is very similar to the Orthodox eastern account, which is associated with a Jerusalem tomb. The account I read was that the sash fell from the sky. I am sure there would be many variations on the story.

I don’t know how the sash wound up in Italy, did they mention that?

I don’t remember their saying anything on that. It was just a short squib. I really regret that I didn’t make time to take the detour.