Sitting through the Eucharistic Prayer

[John_Hiner]

I occasionally assist at Mass at a Catholic Oratory at a local university. There are no kneelers provided in the Oratory and there is little space for kneeling. However, the practice followed by almost everyone who attends this Mass is to sit during the Eucharistic Prayer. The people stand during the Consecration and then, as soon as the Eucharistic Prayer begins, everyone takes his seat and stays seated until after the Great Amen. They then rise for the Our Father.

Does anyone know any basis for this practice? It seems to me both disrespectful and wrong-headed. If one cannot kneel, because of lack of space, then it seems that one should stand as the next most respectful posture.

Any insight as to the root of this practice would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Pax Christi vobiscum.

John Hiner

 

[promethius95945]

Does anyone know any basis for this practice? It seems to me both disrespectful and wrong-headed.

1. the basis for this practice is the (incorrect) assumption that lack of kneelers meets the requirements of physical hardship for NOT kneeling. If this were the case, and it’s not, then you are correct, they should assume a standing posture.
2. it seems disrespectful and wrong-headed because it IS. There is no reason that the overwhelming majority of college students cannot kneel on the floor. By any chance, you don’t help out at University of Portland, do you?

 

[JesuXPIPassio]

You’re right, and you should try submitting a complaint. Try sending a letter to whichever priest is in charge over the place, and be sure to put in direct quotations and citations from the General Instruction of the Roman Missal.

Frankly though, you might want to keep the letter unsigned, because in my experience, liturgists (not the ones who are priests, but the ones who are just laypeople doing the job of planning liturgies) often find it annoying when us parishioners try to point things like this out.

If the priest doesn’t act on it, let the local Bishop know. If the local Bishop doesn’t act on it, you can actually write to the Vatican, specifically the Congregation of Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments. Although, for the last two cases, I think it’s best to sign the letter, but just ask them not to give the liturgist your name and identity. A little paranoid, perhaps, but it’s better to be safe. But, I’m sure there are those out there who disagree with me and think you should give your name in any case.

I know this might all seem a bit extreme, but I agree with you that it’s disrespectful toward our God in the Eucharist, and I do think we should do whatever we can to keep that from happening. If we recognise mistakes, we’re bound to help correct them.

It’s weird, the lack of space prevents them from kneeling, so they sit, but don’t stand? That idea of theirs doesn’t really make sense. Sitting takes up more room than standing does!

I occasionally assist at Mass at a Catholic Oratory at a local university. There are no kneelers provided in the Oratory and there is little space for kneeling. However, the practice followed by almost everyone who attends this Mass is to sit during the Eucharistic Prayer. The people stand during the Consecration and then, as soon as the Eucharistic Prayer begins, everyone takes his seat and stays seated until after the Great Amen. They then rise for the Our Father.

Does anyone know any basis for this practice? It seems to me both disrespectful and wrong-headed. If one cannot kneel, because of lack of space, then it seems that one should stand as the next most respectful posture.

Any insight as to the root of this practice would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Pax Christi vobiscum.

John Hiner

 

[John_Hiner]

1. the basis for this practice is the (incorrect) assumption that lack of kneelers meets the requirements of physical hardship for NOT kneeling. If this were the case, and it’s not, then you are correct, they should assume a standing posture.
2. it seems disrespectful and wrong-headed because it IS. There is no reason that the overwhelming majority of college students cannot kneel on the floor. By any chance, you don’t help out at University of Portland, do you?

Laudatur Iesus Christus.

Dear Promethius:

Thank you for your comments.

No: I am on the opposite coast of the US. My story is about a different university.

I agree that the mere lack of kneelers does not constitute a hardship for most people. The problem at the oratory in question is somewhat compounded, however, by either lack of space, or surfeit of chairs, depending on how one looks at the matter. When I attend the Oratory, I am hard pressed to find a back corner or other space where I am able to kneel without moving chairs out of the way, and where I am not likely to be kicked and tripped over by people returning to their seats from Holy Communion.

It is an interesting question what responsibility a person or group has when they elect to furnish their church in a fashion that makes the appropriate expressions of reverence difficult and therefore unlikely. The Oratory in question is part of a “Campus ministry.” One of its goals, I suppose, is to attract as many students to assist at Mass as possible. Occasionally, almost every seat is filled – sadly even during the Eucharistic Prayer. So, I can imagine someone arguing that the number of chairs needed is determined by attendance, and that the space for kneeling is reasonably sacrificed to accommodate the additional seats.

The weight of this argument seems limited, however, since it is the exception rather than the rule for all seats to be filled. At most Masses, kneeling could be accommodated, at least with space, if some of the chairs were removed.

Of course, none of these considerations justify sitting rather than standing for the Eucharistic Prayer.

Pax Christi tecum.

John Hiner

 

[John_Hiner]

You’re right, and you should try submitting a complaint. Try sending a letter to whichever priest is in charge over the place, and be sure to put in direct quotations and citations from the General Instruction of the Roman Missal.

Frankly though, you might want to keep the letter unsigned, because in my experience, liturgists (not the ones who are priests, but the ones who are just laypeople doing the job of planning liturgies) often find it annoying when us parishioners try to point things like this out.

If the priest doesn’t act on it, let the local Bishop know. If the local Bishop doesn’t act on it, you can actually write to the Vatican, specifically the Congregation of Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments. Although, for the last two cases, I think it’s best to sign the letter, but just ask them not to give the liturgist your name and identity. A little paranoid, perhaps, but it’s better to be safe. But, I’m sure there are those out there who disagree with me and think you should give your name in any case.

I know this might all seem a bit extreme, but I agree with you that it’s disrespectful toward our God in the Eucharist, and I do think we should do whatever we can to keep that from happening. If we recognise mistakes, we’re bound to help correct them.

It’s weird, the lack of space prevents them from kneeling, so they sit, but don’t stand? That idea of theirs doesn’t really make sense. Sitting takes up more room than standing does!

Laudatur Iesus Christus.

Dear JesuXPIPassio:

Thank you for your advice. I am sorry to admit that you have a point about the danger of some responses which one can get from people within the Church whom one approaches about concerns or complaints. Your advice about anonymity seems like it might have a place in certain situations, as a realistic assessment of the politics of the matter.

Initially, I view myself as bound by the directive to approach another member of the Church directly, before involving any others in our discussion. (I take this from Matthew 18:15-17.) Only when the person has refused to respond to me, one or two others, and to the Church, in at least one instance, do I feel justified in treating him as “heathen and publican.” However, I agree, if this has happened, then it is often prudent to remain anonymous when dealing with such a person in subsequent matters.

Happily, the situation in question has not yet reached that point. The Pastor at the Oratory is newly installed; we are now coming to the end of his first year. During the first year he has been reluctant to make any stark changes to the practices that took root during the term of the previous Pastor. I am hopeful, however, that this egregious practice of sitting during the Eucharistic Prayer is one of the matters that he will address as soon as his period of circumspection is ended.

This timing is made more likely by the natural break provided by the Summer vacation; students will mostly be gone during the Summer, and a new practice can easily be instituted when they return with the new Freshmen. I will make a point of speaking with the Pastor about this, as soon as possible after Memorial Day.

I hope that the need to “tell the Church” will be un-necessary in this case. However, in the past when taking that daunting step, I have found the Catholics United for the Faith protocol helpful. It is available online: Effective Lay Witness Protocol. Working through each step with patience and love is a great experience and a worthy training course in the work of supporting the Church.

Again, thank you for your comments.

Pax Christi tecum.

John Hiner

 

[John_Hiner]

Laudatur Iesus Christus.

Thank y’all for your comments. This discussion has raised a question in my mind:

Where did y’all get your sense of the order of reverence associated with various postures and gestures? Was this explained by someone, based on a text, or something learned subliminally at one’s mother’s knee?

My sense of the order of postures is this:

Abasement – lying face-down on the floor – used by priests at their ordinations and at other extraordinary events.

Extended Genuflexion – a falling to one’s knee for a few seconds, often for the time of a deliberate Sign of the Cross. This is used to honor the Real Presence during Eucharistic Exposition.

Genuflexion – a brief falling to one knee, a form of latria due to God alone and usually used to acknowledge the Real Presence in the Eucharistic Host inside the Tabernacle.

Kneeling with two knees – a high form of honor due to God (latria) as well as to Angels and Saints (dulia).

Kneeling with one knee – a high form of honor due to some temporal persons such as anointed kings, as well as to God and worthy creatures.

A “profound bow” – a high form of honor, now used as an equivalent of genuflexion when receiving Holy Communion, however, unlike genuflexion this form of honor is sometimes used for temporal persons in oriental cultures and so is not so specific a form of latria. This gesture is also now used during the recitation of a portion of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed.

A bow of the head – a form of reverence paid to the proper names of the Persons of the Trinity, “Father Almighty,” “Jesus,” and “Holy Spirit.” Also used to express honor to the Altar as a symbol of Christ. A less pronounced bow of the head is also used to honor the name “Mary” when used during the Holy Mass to refer to the Mother of God. This gesture is also used to honor and acknowledge the Real Presence when passing a Church with the Eucharist in reservation, when one is not going to enter the Church. (In the past, men used to combine this bow with a “doffing of the hat” when passing a Church with the Eucharist in reservation.)

Standing – this is a level of honor paid to the Word of God in the Gospel reading, and often paid to temporal persons such as ladies joining a party or speakers or judges entering a meeting. It can also be used as a substitute for kneeling, when circumstances make kneeling impossible or inappropriate for some other reason. Ironically, this posture is often considered respectful when a person addresses an authority or a group – one stands to address a judge in court for example – I say this is ironic because this thread is about a group of people who do not stand while the Eucharistic Prayer is being addressed for them, through the Priest, to the Godhead.

Sitting – this is a posture of equality when adopted by everyone present, or of superiority when adopted by a teacher or other person in authority, while others stand. For example, a pope may sit while others stand during an audience, as may a monarch, magistrate, or judge.

Reclining – this is a posture of ease which would be considered disrespectful if adopted during a formal meeting with a person of authority or a superior. (This is sometimes a question in my mind when I see children of a relatively advanced age laying or sprawling in the pew during the Mass and even during the Consecration and Eucharistic Prayer.)
Does this comport with other’s understanding of the meaning and order of these gestures and postures?

Spiritus Sapientiae nobiscum.

John Hiner

 

[Evan]

Frankly though, you might want to keep the letter unsigned, because in my experience, liturgists (not the ones who are priests, but the ones who are just laypeople doing the job of planning liturgies) often find it annoying when us parishioners try to point things like this out.

I know priests, and I agree, who think if you are unwilling to sign the letter, you are unwilling to stand up for the point you are trying to make. And thusly, it is not THAT important to you.

Sign it, give your phone number, address, and include a self addressed stamped envelope for the reply!!!