Six Hours?

[e_c]

Yes but did other people crucified receive the same degree of scourging?

I remember being told as a child that scourging was actually supposed to be merciful in a way - it weakens the person who is to be crucified, so he won’t last as long.

Take that for what it’s worth.

Whatever the case, he died. And remember how much He had been talking about how that must happen!

Consider too that the tomb was guarded… with a huge stone rolled across the entrance… Supposing the absolute perfect “swoon” was indeed achieved, how does one solve that problem? A half-dead man rolling a stone the weight of a large pick-up truck from a point with no leverage (in the dark), and then fighting off the men guarding it? Is this what we are to think?

 

[Faith1960]

Or 3 hours, depending on how one reads the narrative.

You are not the only one who was amazed. Pilate was shocked too.

One could perhaps offer several theological reasons for the time of death, but a biological one is that the stresses of the Passion began well before the actual crucifixion. How stressed do you think you need to be to sweat blood?

Remember that Our Lord had, at every moment, the power to free Himself from pain. Each second of the Passion was willed by Him in His human nature, to conform with His Divine Will as Son and with the Father’s Will. THAT is real stress.

The stress, combined with a particularly bad pre-crucifixion regimen which included a brutal beating and a hike of some 400 meters up a hill with a 100 or so pound hunk of wood after a sleepless night enduring all kinds of mental agony, was enough to prepare His heart for danger. After this and the stresses of the Cross, and given the act of the loud yell before giving up His life, it is probable that His heart burst. This is also quite theologically fitting, not only for the poetic nature of it, but also because the same part of the heart that would have ruptured is the part that tends to show up in Eucharistic miracles, if I am remembering correctly.

There are also different ways of crucifying someone. Depending on how stretched out the arms are, or if there is a seat, or a very flat foot rest, the death can be slower. Then delirium might set in, with dehydration, hunger, the elements, or even wild animals being the ultimate cause of death rather than asphyxiation or some cardiac event.

Swoon theory is hilariously unrealistic for all kinds of reasons, some of which have been offered. Here’s another - you and I break a toe and will not walk right for a month. Jesus had open holes in both feet, and would have stayed in a cave bleeding for 2 days with no medical care, and then is walking all around. How is that realistic? Same goes for the hands and side (which certainly would be enough evidence for anyone… if you don’t react to having a spear shoved into your torso, then you are not faking anything… you must be at least comatose… but blood AND water come only from dead bodies,

Ok, thanks.

 

[pianistclare]

Yes but did other people crucified receive the same degree of scourging as Jesus did?

NO.
Many were not scourged at all.

Have you a Spiritual Director?
Have you any priest that you can talk to about all of your doubts?
You seem to focus on things that are not concerning to most believers.

If everyone was treated the same exact way, how would that change your belief that Jesus Christ is Lord and died for the salvation of mankind?

Because that’s the bottom line.

Maybe some online study even, could be beneficial.
Peace.

 

[Faith1960]

Or 3 hours, depending on how one reads the narrative.

You are not the only one who was amazed. Pilate was shocked too.

One could perhaps offer several theological reasons for the time of death, but a biological one is that the stresses of the Passion began well before the actual crucifixion. How stressed do you think you need to be to sweat blood?

Remember that Our Lord had, at every moment, the power to free Himself from pain. Each second of the Passion was willed by Him in His human nature, to conform with His Divine Will as Son and with the Father’s Will. THAT is real stress.

The stress, combined with a particularly bad pre-crucifixion regimen which included a brutal beating and a hike of some 400 meters up a hill with a 100 or so pound hunk of wood after a sleepless night enduring all kinds of mental agony, was enough to prepare His heart for danger. After this and the stresses of the Cross, and given the act of the loud yell before giving up His life, it is probable that His heart burst. This is also quite theologically fitting, not only for the poetic nature of it, but also because the same part of the heart that would have ruptured is the part that tends to show up in Eucharistic miracles, if I am remembering correctly.

There are also different ways of crucifying someone. Depending on how stretched out the arms are, or if there is a seat, or a very flat foot rest, the death can be slower. Then delirium might set in, with dehydration, hunger, the elements, or even wild animals being the ultimate cause of death rather than asphyxiation or some cardiac event.

Swoon theory is hilariously unrealistic for all kinds of reasons, some of which have been offered. Here’s another - you and I break a toe and will not walk right for a month. Jesus had open holes in both feet, and would have stayed in a cave bleeding for 2 days with no medical care, and then is walking all around. How is that realistic? Same goes for the hands and side (which certainly would be enough evidence for anyone… if you don’t react to having a spear shoved into your torso, then you are not faking anything… you must be at least comatose… but blood AND water come only from dead bodies,

Ok, thanks.

 

[Faith1960]

NO.
Many were not scourged at all.

Have you a Spiritual Director?
Have you any priest that you can talk to about all of your doubts?
You seem to focus on things that are not concerning to most believers.

If everyone was treated the same exact way, how would that change your belief that Jesus Christ is Lord and died for the salvation of mankind?

Because that’s the bottom line.

Maybe some online study even, could be beneficial.
Peace.

Yes I have a SD and I also have OCD which makes me obsess about religion.

 

[Hockeygurl]

Read the Case for Easter by Lee Strobel, it does through the medical viewpoint of what he suffered and how he couldn’t possibly be alive following it. I believe there also might be a utube video on it also.

We have to remember that the Romans were VERY good at this, if a person were to escape alive, the soldiers responsible would be punished or killed, they didn’t take any chances.

 

[Faith1960]

Read the Case for Easter by Lee Strobel, it does through the medical viewpoint of what he suffered and how he couldn’t possibly be alive following it. I believe there also might be a utube video on it also.

We have to remember that the Romans were VERY good at this, if a person were to escape alive, the soldiers responsible would be punished or killed, they didn’t take any chances.

I did read that a long time ago but had forgotten most of it. Just looked it up online and read it. It’s a repeat of what’s in A Case For Christ.

 

[Della]

Jesus died at the hour he died because that’s when he gave up his life.

Jesus died at the same hour as the sacrifices were offered in the Temple. He, being the sacrifice for our sins, offered himself up to the Father at that precise time. It was intentional, not random, nor caused merely by his injuries.

We have to remember that Jesus is God and man. Being God means that he determined when he would die, not Pilate, not the soldiers, not the leaders of Israel. He did, and he did it at the right time for a the evening sacrifice, which he turned into an eternal sacrifice which we re-offer the Father at every Mass.

 

[Faith1960]

Jesus died at the hour he died because that’s when he gave up his life.

Jesus died at the same hour as the sacrifices were offered in the Temple. He, being the sacrifice for our sins, offered himself up to the Father at that precise time. It was intentional, not random, nor caused merely by his injuries.

We have to remember that Jesus is God and man. Being God means that he determined when he would die, not Pilate, not the soldiers, not the leaders of Israel. He did, and he did it at the right time for a the evening sacrifice, which he turned into an eternal sacrifice which we re-offer the Father at every Mass.

Are you suggesting He committed suicide?

 

[Della]

Are you suggesting He committed suicide?

Good heavens, no! He laid down his life after enduring all the terrible injuries he suffered. You have to stop obsessing over these things. It’s unhealthy for you and you know it.

 

[1ke]

Yes but did other people crucified receive the same degree of scourging as Jesus did?

Faith: IT DOESN"T MATTER.

Christ make an act of his will to relinquish his life. “In to your hands I commend my spirit”. Christ decided when to die.

He is God.

Be at peace. Stop obsessing about this.

 

[1ke]

My last post on this topic:

Faith, your OCD is not rational and no answer anyone gives here will quench the fires that are flaring up.

Call your spiritual director and your mental health provider as you are having an OCD episode. As much as we want to, we cannot help you here.

 

[Faith1960]

My last post on this topic:

Faith, your OCD is not rational and no answer anyone gives here will quench the fires that are flaring up.

Call your spiritual director and your mental health provider as you are having an OCD episode. As much as we want to, we cannot help you here.

I emailed my priest and he said pretty much what was said here but he’s out of town and will talk more about it when he returns, though I’m already satisfied with his answer and the answers I’ve been given here. Thanks.

 

[eddie_too]

i cannot imagine that His loved ones would have buried Him if He were alive!

nor can i imagine that He could have rolled back the large stone walked away from His tomb given His physical condition before His death.

finally, i cannot imagine that His apostles would have suffered martyrdom if He were a charlatan as the muslims suggest.

there are other reason of course, but these three first come to mind.

 

[eddie_too]

also, i am unsure what you mean when you ask how we can be “certain”.

if you only believe what makes sense to you, you are going to miss out on a lot of the grace made available to us through Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Roman Catholic Church.

i cannot imagine that any of us has the intellectual acumen to fully grasp every aspect of our holy, catholic faith. if by certainty you mean your personal grasp of every aspect of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, i believe you are on a futile mission.

the apostle creed begins with, we (i) believe. our certainty comes from our belief, not the other way around.

 

[e_c]

Are you suggesting He committed suicide?

There is a world of difference between allowing oneself to be executed and executing oneself.

There is likewise a world of difference between simply ceasing to have the will to live such as would allow for your death and actively willing to die.

There is additionally a world of difference between purely human actions and the actions of a man who is also God.

 

[Peebo]

Jesus forgave those who condemned him…
He promised one of the thieves that he would be with him that day in Paradise
He gave his mother over to his Disciple John
He then said “Father into your hands I commend my spirit”

All these final things Jesus said while in excruciating agony…scourged…his body torn and bleeding…nails pierced through his hands and feet…crucified hanging upon a cross…yet he managed to show forgiveness in his agony…he gave his own Mother that she would become our Mother…he knew the exact moment when he would give up his spirit…and so he accomplished what he came to do…to die for our sins that we might be reconciled to God…and you still doubt…

 

[pianistclare]

Yes I have a SD and I also have OCD which makes me obsess about religion.

Well then, as usual, l will pray for your peace.
In the meantime, perhaps posting on this Forum is a not wise move for you.

 

[Faith1960]

Well then, as usual, l will pray for your peace.
In the meantime, perhaps posting on this Forum is a not wise move for you.

Are you trying to get rid of me?

 

[Peebo]

Are you trying to get rid of me?

While I can’t speak for Piaistclare I think the message she is trying to convey is that you need to rely on your Spiritual Director and not here on CAF where you may receive information that no matter how well intentioned may be wrong and cause you needless anxiety.