Six reasons NOT to send your daughter to college

[PRmerger]

On that note, I think there were four dangers he gave in a college education, but they apply equally regardless of gender.

'zactly.

 

[TerryOfromCA]

Six reasons NOT to send your daughter to college

It should say, “Six reasons to carefully find the right college to send your daughter to.”

I am sure a place like Franciscan University in Steubenville would be a fantastic atmosphere for a kid.

But Berkeley? Harvard? No way José.

 

[JustPink]

Ok.

I guess I don’t think his point is that girls shouldn’t get higher education. Only that college is not the place for them to get it these days.

How else does someone go about acquiring a higher education by not going to college?

 

[PRmerger]

How else does someone go about acquiring a higher education by not going to college?

I guess the way the folks did it before there was a formal university system (which, BTW, was started by the Catholic Church.)

 

[JustPink]

I guess the way the folks did it before there was a formal university system (which, BTW, was started by the Catholic Church.)

Which is how?

 

[PRmerger]

Which is how?

By reading. Having tutors. Observing and the scientific process.

 

[Serap]

I can’t believe this thread has lasted 14 pages. The fact that this is a debate makes me sick.

Thank God I live in a country that enabled me to get my B. Comm. Thank you for all the women who fought for the rights and privileges that I have today.

 

[TerryOfromCA]

I can’t believe this thread has lasted 14 pages. The fact that this is a debate makes me sick.

Thank God I live in a country that enabled me to get my B. Comm. Thank you for all the women who fought for the rights and privileges that I have today.

Whats a B Comm

 

[JustPink]

I can’t believe this thread has lasted 14 pages. The fact that this is a debate makes me sick.

Thank God I live in a country that enabled me to get my B. Comm. Thank you for all the women who fought for the rights and privileges that I have today.

What makes me sick also is that 4 people voted for a rating for this thread, which was really a rating for that article. Two peple gave it a well deserved 1 star, while 2 others gave it a 5 star. The fact that 2 people here would actually rate that article as excellent is scary.

 

[TerryOfromCA]

I admit I didn’t read the article, but I do know that many many universities are horrible places to send kids. I used to work near UC Berkeley and it was all I could do to keep from throwing up when I saw the vermin that walked in and out of that place.

 

[Rau]

By reading. Having tutors. Observing and the scientific process.

Quaint.

 

[JustPink]

I admit I didn’t read the article, but I do know that many many universities are horrible places to send kids.

This article isn’t about many universities being horrible for kids. This article is about not allowing women to continue in school after 12th grade.

That’s why it’s so pitiful.

 

[TerryOfromCA]

This article isn’t about many universities being horrible for kids. This article is about not allowing women to continue in school after 12th grade.

That’s why it’s so pitiful.

Oh. In that case, never mind.

 

[JustPink]

I used to work near UC Berkeley and it was all I could do to keep from throwing up when I saw the vermin that walked in and out of that place.

Isn’t it a bit harsh to refer to young people you don’t know anything about as “vermin?”

 

[EasterJoy]

I admit I didn’t read the article, but I do know that many many universities are horrible places to send kids. I used to work near UC Berkeley and it was all I could do to keep from throwing up when I saw the vermin that walked in and out of that place.

The wildlife from off of Telegraph Avenue does not worry me that much, but I have heard the Newman Center has gotten WAY out there, even for a Bay Area church (and even considering what a odd bunker-like space the sanctuary is). When I was there it was more liberal than I would have liked, but by and large the rubrics were followed. (I have to admit I went elsewhere for Triduum, though, so who knows what that was like…)

That is the thing: Do you have a child that could or would seek out a local parish with orthodox preaching if the Newman Center was not? If you don’t, then there are probably college towns that have to be crossed off the list for that reason alone. I have not been there for a long time, but I would imagine Berkeley is one of them. There are also college towns that are bluntly anti-Rome, and only tolerate anti-Rome Catholics. I’m not talking about the odd professor, but the atmosphere of the university and local area as a whole, places where a person who believes women cannot be ordained would find themselves unwelcome. Nobody needs that in college, and transferring after the fact is a real pain.

 

[57thDimension]

“This text is clear. No discrimination, in the noble sense, in function of sex, concerning the education, the instruction, the learning, the formation and even for the higher education (college or university). It is a moral obligation of avoiding and of struggling those mentalities and those practices (refusal the education to females, the same rights than men) for the mother, the father and thus for the parents.”

Like other Church documents, this one seems to ignore biological realities like differential fecundity. Yes, a woman can pursue whatever education she wishes, but she must also live with the fact that there are consequences (in the correct sense of the word) for that (e.g. delay). According to the 2000-2012 GSS, fertility is highly dysgenic by more education for conservative women (that is, it effectively inhibits reproduction). Now, it may be the case that those people never wanted to have more children than they had, but as it turns out, a person’s ideal number of children is higher on average than the number of children they end up having (e.g. blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/12/dont-wait-to-have-older-children/#.UjsDZcakq1Z). That effect increases with the amount of education that they attain. Discrepancy between expectations and outcomes will only increase for younger cohorts of women, especially those who feel it is important to have their children within wedlock. Each new cohort of women continues to delay marriage further, and there are limits on how far out childbirth can be delayed (e.g.: OECD Family Database. SF2.3: mean age of mothers at first childbirth. OECD – social policy division – directorate of employment, labour and social affairs. oecd.org/els/social/family/database; 2012). Women declare that they are pursuing lengthy educations, assuming that can just begin to have families later in life (late 20s and 30s) but fail to realize how much their fertility falls with time (90% of a woman’s egg cells are typically already gone by age 30 - see: Wallace, W. Hamish B., and Thomas W. Kelsey. “Human ovarian reserve from conception to the menopause.” PloS one 5.1 (2010): e8772., etc). Conservative women more often eschew education and opt for marriage and family (GSS), but not necessarily because they aren’t as smart (education is linked to reduced fertility, IQ isn’t [neutral actually, and it would be a mediator…], e.g.: Meisenberg, Gerhard. “Wealth, intelligence, politics and global fertility differentials.” Journal of biosocial science 41.4 (2009): 519).

Even beyond that, greater levels of education are associated with switching to mainline Protestant denominations, especially for Catholics (Schwadel, Philip. “The effects of education on Americans’ religious practices, beliefs, and affiliations.” Review of religious research 53.2 (2011): 161-182). Catholic students in particular show an increase in liberalization and rejection of Church doctrine in post-secondary education - the effect only becomes more apparent with higher levels of education (e.g.: Guest, Mathew, et al. Christianity and the University Experience: Understanding Student Faith. A&C Black, 2013., etc).

---

Sincerely, your first paragraph makes no sense to me. If a woman goes to a school with more men than women, how come she runs a “significant risk” of not finding anyone?

Did you even read my sources? Statistically a women is much less likely to meet someone in university with a high male-female ratio. It’s that simple.

Unless that particular woman is either not interested in men, ridiculously picky or difficult, (which in any of these cases it has nothing to do with the school and male female ratio) her chances of finding someone are actually greater.

Again, did you even read my sources? You seem to be confusing the way you want the world to be with how the world actually is.

I went to a University where there were more men than women and I meet my fiancee at the University. Also many of my classmates at the University meet their current husbands/fiancees at the University.

Anecdotal evidence.

Also the idea of she will have more temptations, calls my attention as again, generally speaking men are the ones who engage more frequently in bad behavior, who historically have been engaging statistically more in sinful behavior than women and while it is true that the numbers of women behaving wrongly have gone up, men still fall into the temptation more, so then why are we not talking about the men??

Do you have a source for any of this? Or is it just wishful thinking?

The solution to this is not keeping women out of College but instead to have more faithful people in all, College, society and starting families.

You’ve misread my comment and have effectively replied to something entirely different. I never suggested that women should stay out of universities, I simply stated that there are consequences to doing so, and backed up my claims with sources. As of yet, you have not done the same. You also seem to be slipping into wishful thinking again.

I don’t see how delaying marriage to finish a career is nothing but a good thing.

Again, did you even read my sources? Just because you don’t see how doesn’t affect whether it does or does not happen.

First and foremost, building a career and finding a good husband are not mutually exclusive (I can give you a long list of women who have done that).

More anecdotal evidence. Statistically, the more education women get, the fewer children they have and the less likely they are to get married (see sources in previous posts, and above).

 

[57thDimension]

who do you think has a better chance of being more stable emotionally and economically: the child of an 18 year old who barely finished high school and is not mature enough or the child of a 30 year old who actually wants that child, is stable economically, is mature, responsible, educated, made a responsible discernment as to marriage, and has experience running a household?

The false dichotomy is entertaining, and it isn’t appropriate in this case. You also seem to ignore the father in all of this (are the mothers raising the children alone?). Was that intentional? I understand that single motherhood is on the rise, but I think we’re discussing Catholic/Christian marriage.

Research findings show that wealthy individuals can, in fact, easily increase fertility and poor individuals do not suffer a reduced long-term fitness because of the greater number of presumably poorer quality offspring, as you seem to suggest (see, e.g.: H. Kaplan, J. B. Lancaster, W. T. Tucker, and K. G. Anderson, “Evolutionary approach to below replacement fertility,” American Journal of Human Biology, vol. 14, no. 2, pp. 233–256, 2002). As I noted above, post-secondary education, especially for women, is one of the primary causes of the large fertility decline in the past few decades.
(e.g.: K. O. Mason, “Explaining fertility transitions,” Demography, vol. 34, no. 4, pp. 443–454, 1997., etc). It comes down to priorities. The steep decline in the Catholic marriage rate would seem to suggest a shift in priorities.

Outcomes of higher education, like higher earnings (on the part of a wife), increase divorce risk (e.g.: Ressler, Rand W., and Melissa S. Waters. “Female earnings and the divorce rate: a simultaneous equations model.” Applied Economics 32.14 (2000): 1889-1898). It’s not just higher earnings, but correlates with higher earnings, as well - an education gap, with the husband being more educated, has a positive effect on marriage (Groot, Wim, and Henriette Maassen Van Den Brink. “Age and education differences in marriages and their effects on life satisfaction.” Journal of Happiness Studies 3.2 (2002): 153-165.). Women usually select a husband who has a higher level of education and earning-power (i.e. SES - socioeconomic status), and not because men are better educated than women (they aren’t, it’s been the other way around for a while now), but rather the seemingly innate preference for high resource acquisition capabilities (see, e.g.: Schmitt, David P., et al. “A Reexamination of Sex Differences in Sexuality New Studies Reveal Old Truths.” Current Directions in Psychological Science 21.2 (2012): 135-139., Sprecher, Susan, Quintin Sullivan, and Elaine Hatfield. “Mate selection preferences: gender differences examined in a national sample.” Journal of personality and social psychology 66.6 (1994): 1074., etc). Things get more interesting when we notice that women aren’t just selecting high SES, but SES that is higher than their own (see the classic paper: Buss, David M. “Sex differences in human mate preferences: Evolutionary hypotheses tested in 37 cultures.” Behavioral and brain sciences 12.1 (1989): 1-49). If more women get a higher education, and they want to marry men who have higher levels of education than their own (which is tied in with SES), then they are in fact reducing their chances of finding someone to their liking.

A woman’s chances are reduced also because the man she would like to end up marrying (closer to her own age as she approaches her late 20s and early 30s - see the GSS 2000-2012) is interested in women younger than her. Why? Well, age is linked with attractiveness - the older someone is, the less attractive they are (e.g.: Collins, Sarah A., and Caroline Missing. “Vocal and visual attractiveness are related in women.” Animal Behaviour 65.5 (2003): 997-1004., Symons, Donald. “Beauty is in the adaptations of the beholder: The evolutionary psychology of human female sexual attractiveness.” Sexual nature, sexual culture (1995): 80-118., Furnham, Adrian, Disha Mistry, and Alastair McClelland. “The influence of age of the face and the waist to hip ratio on judgements of female attractiveness and traits.” Personality and individual differences 36.5 (2004): 1171-1185., etc). Finally, the reason the divorce rate is lower for older women is, yes, due in part to maturity, but also due in part to the recognition that their chances of remarriage (and divorce outcomes) get worse the older they are (see, e.g.: Bramlett MD and Mosher WD. “Cohabitation, Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage in the United States”. National Center for Health Statistics. Vital Health Stat 23(22). 2002).

The interesting thing about higher maternal age is that it leads to a smaller family, which means fewer Catholics (in this case), which means a lowered chance of future generations being able to meet a spouse, which means (in part) a further delay of marriage - it’s going to start feeding back in unless something is done to stop it (Cf. e.g.: Dessy, Sylvain, and Habiba Djebbari. “High-Powered Careers and Marriage: Can Women Have It All?” The BE Journal of Economic Analysis & Policy 10.1 (2010)). Also, by doing this they are effectively selecting out interest in education (i.e. a combination of traits that correlate to higher educational achievement, see: Hatemi, Peter K., and Rose McDermott. “The genetics of politics: discovery, challenges, and progress.” Trends in Genetics (2012)).

Now, it is not necessarily the case that these women have entirely rejected the idea of motherhood, but it is not actively pursued - it is something that is assumed will just happen of itself at some indefinite point of time in the future.

A friend of mine is a doctor who deals a lot with fertility issues in older couples (in his opinion, 35+) - the lengths some of them go through to have children are mind-boggling. In some cases, couples have spent as much as $180,000 trying to have a single child.

 

[57thDimension]

Obviously, the child of a woman in her late 20’s or 30’s who has an education (regardless of whether the mother decided to be a SAHM or is working, the issue is that the mother is educated, mature and stable) is going to fare much better.

You seem so certain of that. Why?

Again, I think what you are looking at here is radical feminist women who bought into the lies of radical feminism that men and women are the same, sexual promiscuity etc and due to personal bad decisions ended up as what is described in the women can’t have it all.

Actually, no. See sources, above. You also seem to be implying that Catholic women haven’t bought into [radical] feminism, or parts of it. Are you calling it “radical” in order to separate Catholic women from the feminist ideals they’ve ended up subscribing to? The things you list are the things that a lot of Catholic women buy into (and, at each point making the same arguments about “sexism” when people warn them against the consequences, and so forth). The above statement of yours could be the seed for a twenty-page thread, so I won’t really spend more time on it (lest it digress to much). Finally: the last I checked, radical feminists weren’t the ‘marrying types.’

The definition of misogyny is hate towards women. Suggesting that women should not go to college but men should, is sexist and denotes a view that women are inferior. That is misogyny at its best.

You’ve simply taken the worst interpretation (a strawman fallacy) and run with it. I’ll admit that it is a creative interpretation, though.

That women with a career doesn’t like housekeeping? I have a bachelor’s, two LLMs and a JD and have a professional career and I am very good with housekeeping. In fact I have to say I started liking housekeeping more while being at the University. The same goes for all my female friends with careers.

Anecdotal evidence, again. I provided a peer-reviewed source, you provided a single anecdote.

The complain that you do hear in the real world though is when both the woman and the man work and the man not contributing with housekeeping and having double work, that is the problem with housekeeping, not education and careers.

While there are complaints when women are working more than men (i.e. in terms of hours of labour), you’ve conflated two things here and then shifted to a strawman argument.

+Sebastian

 

[PRmerger]

Like other Church documents, this one seems to ignore biological realities like differential fecundity. Yes, a woman can pursue whatever education she wishes, but she must also live with the fact that there are consequences (in the correct sense of the word) for that (e.g. delay). According to the 2000-2012 GSS, fertility is highly dysgenic by more education for conservative women (that is, it effectively inhibits reproduction). Now, it may be the case that those people never wanted to have more children than they had, but as it turns out, a person’s ideal number of children is higher on average than the number of children they end up having (e.g. blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/12/dont-wait-to-have-older-children/#.UjsDZcakq1Z). That effect increases with the amount of education that they attain. Discrepancy between expectations and outcomes will only increase for younger cohorts of women, especially those who feel it is important to have their children within wedlock. Each new cohort of women continues to delay marriage further, and there are limits on how far out childbirth can be delayed (e.g.: OECD Family Database. SF2.3: mean age of mothers at first childbirth. OECD – social policy division – directorate of employment, labour and social affairs. oecd.org/els/social/family/database; 2012). Women declare that they are pursuing lengthy educations, assuming that can just begin to have families later in life (late 20s and 30s) but fail to realize how much their fertility falls with time (90% of a woman’s egg cells are typically already gone by age 30 - see: Wallace, W. Hamish B., and Thomas W. Kelsey. “Human ovarian reserve from conception to the menopause.” PloS one 5.1 (2010): e8772., etc). Conservative women more often eschew education and opt for marriage and family (GSS), but not necessarily because they aren’t as smart (education is linked to reduced fertility, IQ isn’t [neutral actually, and it would be a mediator…], e.g.: Meisenberg, Gerhard. “Wealth, intelligence, politics and global fertility differentials.” Journal of biosocial science 41.4 (2009): 519).

Even beyond that, greater levels of education are associated with switching to mainline Protestant denominations, especially for Catholics (Schwadel, Philip. “The effects of education on Americans’ religious practices, beliefs, and affiliations.” Review of religious research 53.2 (2011): 161-182). Catholic students in particular show an increase in liberalization and rejection of Church doctrine in post-secondary education - the effect only becomes more apparent with higher levels of education (e.g.: Guest, Mathew, et al. Christianity and the University Experience: Understanding Student Faith. A&C Black, 2013., etc).

---

Did you even read my sources? Statistically a women is much less likely to meet someone in university with a high male-female ratio. It’s that simple.

Again, did you even read my sources? You seem to be confusing the way you want the world to be with how the world actually is.

Anecdotal evidence.

Do you have a source for any of this? Or is it just wishful thinking?

You’ve misread my comment and have effectively replied to something entirely different. I never suggested that women should stay out of universities, I simply stated that there are consequences to doing so, and backed up my claims with sources. As of yet, you have not done the same. You also seem to be slipping into wishful thinking again.

Again, did you even read my sources? Just because you don’t see how doesn’t affect whether it does or does not happen.

More anecdotal evidence. Statistically, the more education women get, the fewer children they have and the less likely they are to get married (see sources in previous posts, and above).

Would you mind not removing the name(s) of the original member when you respond to their posts?

I cannot tell from whom the original text originated.

Thanks.

 

[EasterJoy]

Like other Church documents, this one seems to ignore biological realities like differential fecundity…

Yes, because the Magesterium is entirely ignorant of biological realities like that.

As it turns out, a great proportion of the divorce rate among fundamentalist Christians seems to be linked to do the early age at which they marry (a younger age at first marriage being a major risk factor for eventual divorce). Ironically, a Christian woman who leaps into marriage so that she can get started with having lots of babies can be making herself more vulnerable to divorce than the woman who stayed out of the dating pool, got an education, and let courtship wait until she was older.

I do not find it at all surprising that “a person’s ideal number of children is higher on average than the number of children they end up having”. God sends us one at a time, and rather rarely more. There is a reason for that.