Six reasons NOT to send your daughter to college

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Women can do whatever they want. The only point I’ve really been interested in making is that there are consequences/undesirable outcomes/opportunity costs/etc for every action (and particularly for delaying marriage). If there is to be any change in attitudes or policy, it should be in making it clear that delaying marriage is not always in a woman’s best interests, and can sometimes lead to serious problems (e.g. the usual increased chance of birth complications, miscarriage, child disability, and so forth, but also the fact that they reduce their chances of getting married as they get older [for a range of reasons]).

Some European countries (e.g. Denmark) have allowed women to better balance between career and family by changing/improving laws on maternity leave (for example). Scandinavian countries also have very generous paid childcare and lengthy parental leaves (at the cost of high taxes), and that has seemingly led to a boost in the fertility rates (up to 1.9, and controlling for immigration). It’s still all quite a mess, though. There’s a utility function to education/career pursuit on the part of women and later childbearing, and it usually results in lower fertility (but that could also be contributed to by previous cohorts of women who are pushing later cohorts to delay marriage, see e.g.: Dessy & Habiba, in a previous post).

I don’t see any point (or reason) in changing accessibility/availability of higher education to women, since the fertility decline is likely going to be permanent for educated persons (that is, it is below replacement level - again, see the GSS).

Well, actually, there is one policy point: discourage men and women from pursuing useless degrees (e.g. fine arts) - such degrees rarely provide any benefit in terms of employment and also serve to increase debt and delay marriage. Women pursue degrees that usually pay less to a greater extent than men do, though.

+Sebastian
On the whole, I don’t see too many “ideas” coming from your posts, rather the presentation of a lot of research which identifies statistical data and correlations and so forth. Many here I think assume that you present that data to argue that women should not take up education, and so forth. But your answer above identifies that you don’t advocate repressing women’s access to education, etc. simply that they be aware of the trade-offs which may result, as the data suggests.

The article that was quoted at the start of the thread, and various videos from the same guy, was far more forthright in advocating a position, whereas you do not.

Your last para about useless degrees, and the earlier comments on maternity leave, are ideas that might be discussed.
 
One of the most unfortunate things I’ve ever read.

What about nuns with degrees? What about our blessed female Saints who actually FOUNDED many, many schools?

Elizabeth Ann Seton comes to mind.

Although our current university education tuition is outrageous perhaps women can focus on community colleges. You can become an RN in three years for less than $10,000 and most colleges have a payment plan per semester so at the end of your schooling you won’t have much of a debt, if any, at all.

If some women are against going to college they might want to rethink their decision. There are men at college working on their education as well. Catholic schools would be great. How are they going to be a wife and mother without expanding their opportunity to meet educated men?

When both man and wife who are married have a good education they tend to be more stable and have less financial worries which will lead to a long and happy marriage.

Just my two cents… :twocents:
 
Now, it may be the case that those people never wanted to have more children than they had, but as it turns out, a person’s ideal number of children is higher on average than the number of children they end up having (e.g. blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/12/dont-wait-to-have-older-children/#.UjsDZcakq1Z). That effect increases with the amount of education that they attain. Discrepancy between expectations and outcomes will only increase for younger cohorts of women, especially those who feel it is important to have their children within wedlock. Each new cohort of women continues to delay marriage further, and there are limits on how far out childbirth can be delayed (e.g.: OECD Family Database. SF2.3: mean age of mothers at first childbirth. OECD – social policy division – directorate of employment, labour and social affairs. oecd.org/els/social/family/database; 2012). Women declare that they are pursuing lengthy educations, assuming that can just begin to have families later in life (late 20s and 30s) but fail to realize how much their fertility falls with time (90% of a woman’s egg cells are typically already gone by age 30 - see: Wallace, W. Hamish B., and Thomas W. Kelsey. "Human ovarian reserve

Did you even read my sources? Statistically a women is much less likely to meet someone in university with a high male-female ratio. It’s that simple.

Again, did you even read my sources? You seem to be confusing the way you want the world to be with how the world actually is.

Anecdotal evidence.

Do you have a source for any of this? Or is it just wishful thinking?

You’ve misread my comment and have effectively replied to something entirely different. I never suggested that women should stay out of universities, I simply stated that there are consequences to doing so, and backed up my claims with sources. As of yet, you have not done the same. You also seem to be slipping into wishful thinking again.

Again, did you even read my sources? Just because you don’t see how doesn’t affect whether it does or does not happen.

More anecdotal evidence. Statistically, the more education women get, the fewer children they have and the less likely they are to get married (see sources in previous posts, and above).
First of all, your sources are completely out of reality. The fact that you find one paper that supports what you believe doesn’t mean it is right. Do you know how many papers have been written with altered numbers, biased opinions, etc. If the paper goes against every common sense, I am sorry but it means there is something wrong with the paper.

You cite a paper that says that 90% of women’s eggs are gone by 30. Do you know how many women have children between 30 and 40 (especially now a days) that assertion is beyond ridiculous. If you were saying 40 I can believe it…but 30? That is ignorant. The birh rate for women 30-34 in the Us is 97.3 per 1,000 which by the way is higher than the birth rate for women within their 20’s which is 83.1 per 1,000. touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-77301047/. If 90% of a woman’s eggs are gone by 30 how in the world women over 30 are having more kids than women in their 20’s? Do you realize how illogical is your source?

Again your source of educated women less likely to marry is totally out of it with regard to the current society. While that was the case in 1950 by 2012 it was the opposite Look at the real numbers in this link, which actually makes a good discussion about the 1950 statistic and your allegations just to prove with numbers that is not true anymore. contemporaryfamilies.org/work-family/fact-sheet-marriage-and-education.html

“If we focus on the early to mid 20’s, a higher percent of the less educated are married. The higher educated groups catch up and pull ahead in their late 20’s and 30’s… if we focus on the rest of life educational differences in those who are currently married are even larger once people move into their late 30’s and 40’s because those at lower educational levels have higher divorce rates”

This means that women who don’t go to college during their 20’s tend to marry more than women who are attending college, however most of these women end up divorce. Women who go to college during their 30’s not only exceed the marriage rate of the one who did it early, but remain married, a fact that obviously you are ignoring.

Also, it is not anecdotal evidence, is proof that you are wrong because if what you are saying is true explain to me how I meet my fiancee and how come I am getting married? If your contention is true I shouldn’t have met my future husband in a male female ratio university, but I did so how does that make sense? Also if what you are saying is true then how all my friends who graduated with me and married their classmates (and we can probably add Sandra day o’connor, Ruth ginsburg, Elizabeth Edwards, Michelle Obama, nina zagat and I can keep with am endless list) met their husbands there? You are saying that doesn’t happen so how come there are so many? Again is not anecdotes it just shows how illogical and far from reality the argument is.

Again the only consequence from attending a university is that you have a netted chance of meeting a better husband, have a better marriage, a more stable life and less chances of getting divorce, not bad at all. Now that there are woman that are difficult and don’t get married because of their own inner problems is a different story that has nothing to do with going to the university.
 
I’m going to discuss ideas, regardless of who they come from. Your perception of an idea should not be affected by who it comes from - it should be perceived (and evaluated) on its own merits.

+Sebastian
I disagree with this.

I personally place a lot of importance on WHO any idea comes from.

If you read certain passages from Mein Kampf, they make sense. But when you learn that Adolf Hitler is the author, you become suspicious of the passages, wondering what the context is.

It’s difficult to evaluate persons in an online world because we have no idea who or what people are.

But I’ve been around CAF long enough to be able to recognize consistent wisdom from certain posters. EasterJoy is one. Pnewton, Sarabande, JimG, and several others are also great posters who always have well-written and thoughtful posts, often supported by personal experiences, and always well-grounded in solid Catholic theology.
 
Is this debate seriously for real??? I think I am in the dark ages…beam me back to 2013 Scottie!
I so agree with you, it is scary. Then we wonder why the radical feminist are so successful attracting people into their lines.
 
I disagree with this.

I personally place a lot of importance on WHO any idea comes from.

If you read certain passages from Mein Kampf, they make sense. But when you learn that Adolf Hitler is the author, you become suspicious oif the passages, wondering what the context is.

It’s difficult to evaluate persons in an online world because we have no idea who or what people are.

But I’ve been around CAF long enough to be able to recognize consistent wisdom from certain posters. EasterJoy is one. Pnewton, Sarabande, JimG, and several others are also great posters who always have well-written and thoughtful posts, often supported by personal experiences, and always well-grounded in solid Catholic theology.
Sooo true! Couldn’t agree more
 
First of all, your sources are completely out of reality. The fact that you find one paper that supports what you believe doesn’t mean it is right. Do you know how many papers have been written with altered numbers, biased opinions, etc. If the paper goes against every common sense, I am sorry but it means there is something wrong with the paper.

You cite a paper that says that 90% of women’s eggs are gone by 30. Do you know how many women have children between 30 and 40 (especially now a days) that assertion is beyond ridiculous. If you were saying 40 I can believe it…but 30? That is ignorant. The birh rate for women 30-34 in the Us is 97.3 per 1,000 which by the way is higher than the birth rate for women within their 20’s which is 83.1 per 1,000. touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-77301047/. If 90% of a woman’s eggs are gone by 30 how in the world women over 30 are having more kids than women in their 20’s? Do you realize how illogical is your source?

Again your source of educated women less likely to marry is totally out of it with regard to the current society. While that was the case in 1950 by 2012 it was the opposite Look at the real numbers in this link, which actually makes a good discussion about the 1950 statistic and your allegations just to prove with numbers that is not true anymore. contemporaryfamilies.org/work-family/fact-sheet-marriage-and-education.html

“If we focus on the early to mid 20’s, a higher percent of the less educated are married. The higher educated groups catch up and pull ahead in their late 20’s and 30’s… if we focus on the rest of life educational differences in those who are currently married are even larger once people move into their late 30’s and 40’s because those at lower educational levels have higher divorce rates”

This means that women who don’t go to college during their 20’s tend to marry more than women who are attending college, however most of these women end up divorce. Women who go to college during their 30’s not only exceed the marriage rate of the one who did it early, but remain married, a fact that obviously you are ignoring.

Also, it is not anecdotal evidence, is proof that you are wrong because if what you are saying is true explain to me how I meet my fiancee and how come I am getting married? If your contention is true I shouldn’t have met my future husband in a male female ratio university, but I did so how does that make sense? Also if what you are saying is true then how all my friends who graduated with me and married their classmates (and we can probably add Sandra day o’connor, Ruth ginsburg, Elizabeth Edwards, Michelle Obama, nina zagat and I can keep with am endless list) met their husbands there? You are saying that doesn’t happen so how come there are so many? Again is not anecdotes it just shows how illogical and far from reality the argument is.

Again the only consequence from attending a university is that you have a netted chance of meeting a better husband, have a better marriage, a more stable life and less chances of getting divorce, not bad at all. Now that there are woman that are difficult and don’t get married because of their own inner problems is a different story that has nothing to do with going to the university.
Well said. There are thousands of articles written on any one subject, Its always possible to find those which support an opinion. The poster has cited so many. Are we supposed to read each one? How authoritative are they?
 
I’m going to discuss ideas, regardless of who they come from. Your perception of an idea should not be affected by who it comes from - it should be perceived (and evaluated) on its own merits.

+Sebastian
It is a practical thing–if you keep the citation of the actual post you’re responding to, it is easier to go back through the posts leading up to it and follow the train of thought in the conversation and to put those into the larger context from which the author of that little fragment of thought is writing. Otherwise we just get “sound bites” flying back and forth, and that is not what I consider a discussion.

BTW: It takes at least two to have a discussion, and generally speaking the ground rules are reached by consensus, not by a one-sided fiat. If someone makes a request and you won’t accommodate it, you’re going to find yourself having some of your discussions with yourself alone. Even if you lose just one person’s point of view, that is a loss to the discussion, particularly if the person is not a “shoot from the hip” poster, the kind who doesn’t want to know the context of a comment before responding to it.
 
You seem so certain of that. Why?

Actually, no. See sources, above. You also seem to be implying that Catholic women haven’t bought into [radical] feminism, or parts of it. Are you calling it “radical” in order to separate Catholic women from the feminist ideals they’ve ended up subscribing to? The things you list are the things that a lot of Catholic women buy into (and, at each point making the same arguments about “sexism” when people warn them against the consequences, and so forth). The above statement of yours could be the seed for a twenty-page thread, so I won’t really spend more time on it (lest it digress to much). Finally: the last I checked, radical feminists weren’t the ‘marrying types.’

You’ve simply taken the worst interpretation (a strawman fallacy) and run with it. I’ll admit that it is a creative interpretation, though.

Anecdotal evidence, again. I provided a peer-reviewed source, you provided a single anecdote.

While there are complaints when women are working more than men (i.e. in terms of hours of labour), you’ve conflated two things here and then shifted to a strawman argument.

+Sebastian
Sincerely, if you don’t have the basic common sense to see why a child fares better with an older educated mother than with am 18 year old immature mother, that is not.good. Again no wonder why liberals and radical feminist are so successful with most people.
nccp.org/publications/pub_786.html

No, I haven’t taken the worst interpretation. The only people who would suggest that women should not go to college but men should are people who hate women, abusers and controlling men.

All your sources are “alarmist” articles, many of them biased articles written with a specific agenda.that are looking at a very specific type of woman who bought into the radical feminism style of life. Sincerely, especially from.your second paragraph, looks like you have problems with relating to women (if you think all catholic women buy into that and all women are the same) maybe the reason why they are telling you sexism is precisely because your statement do sound sexist and because the so called consequences you are mentioning make no sense, are illogical and are totally out of it.

I think my last paragraph wasn’t that clear because accidentally I missed a word. Sorry autocorrect. What I am referring to is the current reality of most marriages where the woman usually does everything and the man is a deadbeat when it comes to the family. That is what you actually see all across the country and that is the number one complain you hear in most marriages. Both the man and the woman work, but when it comes to the house the man is nothing but another child and the woman has to end up doing double the work because all the man does is watching TV and drinking beer… it is so bad that even some that actually help around the house say that they are “helping the wife” as if he doesn’t live in the house. Sad but unfortunately the reality of too many families.

BTW i know quite a few radical feminist who are actually married.
 

I cannot believe that we are really having this discussion on this thread, as if proving that an education poses some additional risk of near occasion of sin is a) a reason to deny an education to anybody, instead of a reason to address the risks when planning that education and b) something that uniquely concerns women.

Let us consider, too, that marital problems are hardly the province of the educated alone. Financial difficulty is among the main reasons for divorce, and (big surprise coming, here!) the people with low-paying jobs tend to have more financial difficulties than people who have high paying jobs.

Let us consider this list of ccupations in which the divorced and never re-married are the most prevalent
(that is, does not count the divorced and re-married, but only the currently divorced)
  1. Dancers & choreographers – 43.05% divorce rate
  2. Bartenders – 38.43% divorce rate
  3. Massage therapists – 38.22% divorce rate
  4. Gaming cage worker – 34.66% divorce rate
  5. Extruding machine operator – 32.74%
  6. Gaming service worker – 31.35% divorce rate
  7. Factory workers: food & tobacco – 29.78% divorce rate
  8. Telephone operators – 29.30% divorce rate
  9. Nursing, psychiatric, and home health aides – 28.95% divorce rate
  10. Entertainers and performers, sports and related workers – 28.49% divorce
  11. Baggage porters and concierges – 28.49% divorce rate
  12. Telemarketers – 28.10% divorce rate
  13. Waiters/waitresses – 27.12% divorce rate
  14. Roofers – 26.85% divorce rate
  15. Maids and housekeeping cleaners – 26.38% divorce rate
Occupations in which the divorced and never re-married are the least prevalent:

Media & communication equipment workers – essentially 0% divorce rate
Agricultural engineers – 1.78% divorce rate
Optometirists – 4.01% divorce rate
Transit and railroad police – 5.26% divorce rate
Clergy – 5.61% divorce rate
Directors of religious activity – 5.88% divorce rate
Sales engineers – 6.61% divorce rate
Podiatrists – 6.81% divorce rate
Nuclear engineers – 7.29% divorce

Read more: businessinsider.com/highest-divorce-rates-by-profession-2010-9?op=1#ixzz2fXsZeQWJ

Did anyone notice a difference in the amount of education required for the jobs on each of those lists? (Hint: Note that the nursing category was for the aides, not for the nurses). Considering that a child who does not get a college education is more likely to marry someone who also does not have a college education, why do we think that denying a college education to someone for whom it is appropriate is somehow buying an insurance policy against marital problems? Guess what happens when you teach a woman domestic skills and ONLY domestic skills? Yes! She has been trained to clean houses, do the unskilled labor at a nursing home, and wait tables, which puts her in the category of those most likely to be in the workforce divorced and never remarried. IOW, when she gets a divorce, those are the jobs she’s been trained to do, and when she does she will be surrounded by co-workers who are also divorced and never re-married. Wonderful. Gosh, how lucky she is that she has no student loans to worry about!!!
👍👍
 
I made no such implication.

Beyond that:

Coltrane, Scott. “Research on household labor: Modeling and measuring the social embeddedness of routine family work.” Journal of Marriage and family 62.4 (2000): 1208-1233.

Ad hominem will not help your case.

Many words, like “misogyny,” are misused/abused. The word “misogyny” has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies “something not desirable to women.” It starts to sound like mechanical repeating of familiar phrases that are not supported by the dictionary definitions of the words contained therein. Anyhow, since you do not attempt to explain even a tenuous connection between misogyny and this discussion, your (mis/ab)use of that word will be ignored as a red herring.

[and others]

Yes, this is the case. Just because you don’t like it, doesn’t make it untrue. Essentially, it’s your opinion versus vast amounts of research.

Beyond that, you have seemingly confused me with the research I am citing. I am only the messenger. What I say or believe has no effect on the results of research - they are what they are.

Anyway, a few more studies that found that attractiveness declines with age:

Buss, D.M., & Schmitt, D.P. (1993). “Sexual strategies theory: An evolutionary perspective on human mating.” Psychological Review, 100, 204–232.

Kwart, Dylan G., Tom Foulsham, and Alan Kingstone. “Age and beauty are in the eye of the beholder.” Perception 41.8 (2012): 925.

Nestor, Mark S., Mark A. Stillman, and Andrew C. Frisina. “Subjective and objective facial attractiveness: ratings and gender differences in objective appraisals of female faces.” The Journal of clinical and aesthetic dermatology 3.12 (2010): 31.

Wade, T. Joel. “Evolutionary theory and self-perception: Sex differences in body esteem predictors of self-perceived physical and sexual attractiveness and self-esteem.” International Journal of Psychology 35.1 (2000): 36-45.

Jones, Doug, and Kim Hill. “Criteria of facial attractiveness in five populations.” Human Nature 4.3 (1993): 271-296.

Zebrowitz, L.A., Olson K., & Hoffman, K. “Stability of babyfaceness and attractiveness across the life span.” Journal of Personality and Social Psychology (1993): 64, 453–466.

Schacht, Ryan. “Female and Male Perceptions of Attractiveness: What is Attractive and Why?.” (2005).

In other words:

In: Jones, Doug, et al. “Sexual selection, physical attractiveness, and facial neoteny: cross-cultural evidence and implications [and comments and reply].” Current Anthropology (1995): 723-748.

And what about men? Well:

(Berry, Diane S. “Attractiveness, attraction, and sexual selection: Evolutionary perspectives on the form and function of physical attractiveness.” Advances in experimental social psychology 32 (2000): 273-342)

But:

(Wheatley, John R., et al. “Quantifying the strength and form of sexual selection on men’s traits.” (2013))

Again:

(Waynforth, David. “Mate choice trade-offs and women’s preference for physically attractive men.” Human Nature 12.3 (2001): 207-219.)
Yes you did make that implication. Also, the word misongyny is not being abused. Have you ever heard of something called “dictionary”? Please go and take a look at one.

All you keep on doing is regurgitating names of studies like if studies are some kind of God. Studies and articles tend to be heavily biased, information is easily played during these study to arrive at an outcome and are quite an inaccurate source. Do you know there are studies that say that actually the best environment for a child to grow up is with two lesbians? Do you know there are many studies that say that homosexual relationships are the ideal type of relationship? That gays are better parents than people who are straight? Do you know that there are studies that say that pesticides do not cause any harm at all, that having pets is a health hazard, that vaccines are lethal, and I can go on with many many more. Studies are nothing but a tool to brainwashing people and a very tricky subject, ad again there is one study for every position and belief that every human has.

I see from another of your posts that you say the only idea that you are trying to get across is that there are consequences. I do agree that in life there is a consequence to every action you take, however your problem is that the consequence you are pointing out are NOT the result of what you are saying is causing it, and that the supposed warning you are giving is totally irrational. It is not true that the consequence of delaying marriage to finish college causes women to not marry. Not true at all. Now if you were saying that spending your 20’s hooking up with every man that walks in front of you, having five abortions, being on the pill since you are 13 until you are 30 and you are difficult, non friendly, behave in a masculine way and project to all guys that you are an angry oger causes women not to marry and have eventual problems with fertility, then we agree. But that having an education causes a decline in fertility and causes women not to marry??? If you have actually said that to any woman I can totally see why they get back at you the way you say.
 
Many words, like “misogyny,” are misused/abused. The word “misogyny” has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies “something not desirable to women.” It starts to sound like mechanical repeating of familiar phrases that are not supported by the dictionary definitions of the words contained therein. Anyhow, since you do not attempt to explain even a tenuous connection between misogyny and this discussion, your (mis/ab)use of that word will be ignored as a red herring.
Are you saying there is no de facto misogyny in inventing reasons that college poses a greater moral danger to women than to men? Are you saying that girls should feel better about being left out of college while their brothers are encouraged to go because their father’s heart is in the right place and so obviously he has nothing against women?

Imagine you have two children, a boy and a girl–or eight, two girls and six boys. Are you really saying that you will discourage the girls from going to college but not the boys? If not, tell us why you have no objection to the piece to be found at the link given in the initial post. If so…explain yourself. I was the valedictorian of my high school class and earned better grades than any of my brothers. I’ll imagine I’m your daughter, listening to this. You’d better make this good.

Well?
 
Also, the word misongyny is not being abused.
I’m not really following the discussion much, but…you don’t mean “not being abused in general” do you? Because in the wider culture it is abused to the extreme. The “war on women” victim mentality stuff is Exhibit A.
 
I’m not really following the discussion much, but…you don’t mean “not being abused in general” do you? Because in the wider culture it is abused to the extreme. The “war on women” victim mentality stuff is Exhibit A.
Unfortunately, so-called “Christian viewpoints” like the one cited in the initial post are Exhibit A concerning how hard it is to convince people outside the Church that Christianity does not see women as having less inherent moral fitness or intellectual worthiness than men.

IMHO, it is just as likely that the author of the original piece sees higher education as no more than something that people do in order to get a return on their dollar and who (for some inexplicable reason) sees it as an automatically selfish abdication of duty when a mother works for a salary. If he didn’t, he wouldn’t treat a young woman’s education as something that could be just as easily bought by obtaining a sufficiently massive life insurance policy on her husband.

IOW, he doesn’t seem to hate women so much as he sees universities as an evil that are only just barely necessary evils, just as some “Christians” seem to see urban areas in the same light.
 
I’m not really following the discussion much, but…you don’t mean “not being abused in general” do you? Because in the wider culture it is abused to the extreme. The “war on women” victim mentality stuff is Exhibit A.
Unfortunately, so-called “Christian viewpoints” like the one cited in the initial post are Exhibit A concerning how hard it is to convince people outside the Church that Christianity does not see women as having less inherent moral fitness or intellectual worthiness than men.

IMHO, it is just as likely that the author of the original piece sees higher education as no more than something that people do in order to get a return on their dollar and who (for some inexplicable reason) sees it as an automatically selfish abdication of duty when a mother works for a salary. If he didn’t, he wouldn’t treat a young woman’s education as something that could be just as easily bought by obtaining a sufficiently massive life insurance policy on her husband.

IOW, he doesn’t seem to hate women. He does seem to see universities as an evil that are only just barely necessary, just as some “Christians” seem to see urban areas in the same light.
 
Auditvocem what I meant by not being abused is very well explained in the underneath post by Easterjoy. (Sorry for copying the posts backwards):
Are you saying there is no de facto misogyny in inventing reasons that college poses a greater moral danger to women than to men? Are you saying that girls should feel better about being left out of college while their brothers are encouraged to go because their father’s heart is in the right place and so obviously he has nothing against women?

Imagine you have two children, a boy and a girl–or eight, two girls and six boys. Are you really saying that you will discourage the girls from going to college but not the boys? If not, tell us why you have no objection to the piece to be found at the link given in the initial post. If so…explain yourself. I was the valedictorian of my high school class and earned better grades than any of my brothers. I’ll imagine I’m your daughter, listening to this. You’d better make this good.

Well?
What Easterjoy says here hits exactly on why the word is not being abused in this thread.
I’m not really following the discussion much, but…you don’t mean “not being abused in general” do you? Because in the wider culture it is abused to the extreme. The “war on women” victim mentality stuff is Exhibit A.
the other point is that according to 57 misongyny means not desirable to women which is totally incorrect (just look at the dictionary if you don’t believe me), it means hatred toward women. Suggesting that your daughter shouldn’t go to college but your son should, when both are going to face exactly the same issues, is misongyny.
 
IOW, he doesn’t seem to hate women. He does seem to see universities as an evil that are only just barely necessary, just as some “Christians” seem to see urban areas in the same light.
Well my only difficulty in believing that his motive is just the belief that universities are a great evil is that, if the university is such an unnecessary evil then why you can send men to them? Even the Christians who have the same belief as to urban stead they all, both male and women, refuse the urban area. They don’t say men can go and live in the urban area but women should live in the rural area. The fact that all his allegations apply equally to both male and female and his only objection is about sending women to have an education makes it very difficult for me to believe that he is doing for any other reason that the belief that women are some kind of sinful thing that should be locked and kept under a male’s control.
 
Well my only difficulty in believing that his motive is just the belief that universities are a great evil is that, if the university is such an unnecessary evil then why you can send men to them? Even the Christians who have the same belief as to urban stead they all, both male and women, refuse the urban area. They don’t say men can go and live in the urban area but women should live in the rural area. The fact that all his allegations apply equally to both male and female and his only objection is about sending women to have an education makes it very difficult for me to believe that he is doing for any other reason that the belief that women are some kind of sinful thing that should be locked and kept under a male’s control.
Because Mom can’t stay home with a large family of children unless Dad has a job that pays well, and the Catholic men supporting large families can’t all be electricians, plumbers, and small business owners. Someone has to have their training at a college or university, or both parents will have to work for a salary.

I’m not defending the mindset; I’m explaining how it could come out of an attitude that values education only for what it adds to salary potential, rather than having a low view of the education of women. (After all, he is going to allow them to have a library card. :rolleyes:)
 
57thDimension;11222309:
Like other Church documents, this one seems to ignore biological realities like differential fecundity. Yes, a woman can pursue whatever education she wishes, but she must also live with the fact that there are consequences (in the correct sense of the word) for that (e.g. delay). According to the 2000-2012 GSS, fertility is highly dysgenic by more education for** conservative women**
(that is, it effectively inhibits reproduction). Now, it may be the case that those people never wanted to have more children than they had, but as it turns out, a person’s ideal number of children is higher on average than the number of children they end up having (e.g. blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/12/dont-wait-to-have-older-children/#.UjsDZcakq1Z). That effect increases with the amount of education that they attain. Discrepancy between expectations and outcomes will only increase for younger cohorts of women, especially those who feel it is important to have their children within wedlock. Each new cohort of women continues to delay marriage further, and there are limits on how far out childbirth can be delayed (e.g.: OECD Family Database. SF2.3: mean age of mothers at first childbirth. OECD – social policy division – directorate of employment, labour and social affairs. oecd.org/els/social/family/database; 2012). Women declare that they are pursuing lengthy educations, assuming that can just begin to have families later in life (late 20s and 30s) but fail to realize how much their fertility falls with time (90% of a woman’s egg cells are typically already gone by age 30 - see: Wallace, W. Hamish B., and Thomas W. Kelsey. “Human ovarian reserve from conception to the menopause.” PloS one 5.1 (2010): e8772., etc). Conservative women more often eschew education and opt for marriage and family (GSS), but not necessarily because they aren’t as smart (education is linked to reduced fertility, IQ isn’t [neutral actually, and it would be a mediator…], e.g.: Meisenberg, Gerhard. “Wealth, intelligence, politics and global fertility differentials.” Journal of biosocial science 41.4 (2009): 519).

Even beyond that, greater levels of education are associated with switching to mainline Protestant denominations, especially for Catholics (Schwadel, Philip. “The effects of education on Americans’ religious practices, beliefs, and affiliations.” Review of religious research 53.2 (2011): 161-182). Catholic students in particular show an increase in liberalization and rejection of Church doctrine in post-secondary education - the effect only becomes more apparent with higher levels of education (e.g.: Guest, Mathew, et al. Christianity and the University Experience: Understanding Student Faith. A&C Black, 2013., etc).

Sorry, the word catholic means the respect of the natural moral law, of the natural right, of the revealed anthropology, of the Canon Law, of teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, not more, not less. The term conservative is not quite theological. A conservative woman, what is it??? We are catholic, we are not conservative, theologically speaking??? Nevertheless, I understand your thought, what you want to say.

I repeat it:

Per se, the fact of being a housewife **is not a moral obligation for the catholic wife / mother: morally speaking, the catholic wife / mother can work outside the house, if she wants and if she needs; **

Per se, the fact of having a large family is not a moral obligation for the catholic couple; the fact of having a large family is not a dogma or a moral obligation (a end of marriage that has to be attempted), per se; the fact of having a large family is not, per se, a sign of the holiness of couple; the fact of having a large family is not, per se, a sign of the unholiness of couple; the fact of wanting a baby and of trying to have a new baby can be irrresponsable in special cases, and that is not morally okay; the fact of having a small family is not, per se, a sign of the unholiness of couple; the fact of having a small family is not, per se, a sign of the holiness of couple; the irresponsible paternity is morally wrong, the irresponsible maternity is morally wrong, the irresponsible procreation is morally wrong; The fact of not wanting a new baby can be selfish under conditions, and that is not morally okay;* the absolute natalism and the absolute procreationism are so morally wrong;*

Per se, the fact of choosing the home-schooling is not a moral obligation for the catholic couple; Per se, the fact of not choosing the home-schooling is not immoral.
**
Per se, the discrimination about the education, in function of gender of children done by catholic parents, is morally wrong.**

Per se, the marriage is morally okay for adults (youngs or old). The catholic church does not require young marriage. A marriage for woman at 30 year or 25 or 18 or 60 is not sinful, is not morally wrong.

** Liberty to choose the age of marriage for woman is the rule.**

Their moral view is full of wrong intellectual approaches. They do not respect the natural moral, balanced, fair and moderated methods **given by the Roman Catholic Church. **They have a reaction, very offensive, very strong, very extremist, very fundamentalist, very simplist that can be absurd.

The isolation bubble of family, of the children and of daughters is a risk. Family is not a convent, is not a seminary and is not a monastery.
**
Their wrong reactionism is the great issue!!!**
 
Because Mom can’t stay home with a large family of children unless Dad has a job that pays well, and the Catholic men supporting large families can’t all be electricians, plumbers, and small business owners. Someone has to have their training at a college or university, or both parents will have to work for a salary.

I’m not defending the mindset; I’m explaining how it could come out of an attitude that values education only for what it adds to salary potential, rather than having a low view of the education of women. (After all, he is going to allow them to have a library card. :rolleyes:)
Now that you mention it I can see the mindset though I still find it very difficult to believe that he doesn’t have any believe that women are somehow inferior.if we were on 1950 I would give him the benefit of the doubt but in 2013not so much. Maybe too the fact that even the highly educated catholic men I know that would like a stay at home mom would like one who has an education (I think someone mentioned this in the thread too ) and would look at a woman with no more than high school education as a liability, causes me me suspicion as to the innocence of his opinion. Kinda sad that there are still people with this mindset today.
 
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