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Darrel
Guest
Anybody know what Scott Hann says about the cube? I’m curious. My old protestant life always taught this was literal.
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Size and shape of the New Jerusalem and how will it fit on the Earth?
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StCsDavid
Guest
An equal if not more top notch scholars believe that the historical background of Revelations refers to the regin of Nero and Vespasian. Chapters 4 - the end of the book predominantly deal with this time period.
What is more, St. John writes as if the Temple in Jerusalem is still standing. Why would write this way in 96 AD when we know the Temple was destoryed in 70 AD. He must have written this prior to the Temple being destroyed.
St. Jerome writes that in 96 AD, John was in poor health; had to be carried into the Church; and could speak few words. It’s reasonable to believe he wouldn’t have been on the Island of Patmos at that time.
These are some of the reasons why I believe Revelations was written prior to 70 AD.
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catholic2
Guest
psst! ask him for documentation…
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StCsDavid
Guest
Dr. Hahn wrote the forward to David Currie’s book, Rapture. I’m quite certain he wouldn’t do that if we didn’t agree with the material Mr. Currie writes. The cube is symbolic…not literal.
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TPJCatholic
Guest
StCsDavid,
Please do not make absolute statements about these matters. It is YOUR opinion that the cube is symbolic and not literal. Also, please do not put words in Dr. Han’s mouth, we do not know what he thinks about this issue…we can only guess.
I realize there are differing opinions regarding the date of authorship for Revelations, yet that was not so in the early Church.
Please do not make absolute statements about these matters. It is YOUR opinion that the cube is symbolic and not literal. Also, please do not put words in Dr. Han’s mouth, we do not know what he thinks about this issue…we can only guess.
I realize there are differing opinions regarding the date of authorship for Revelations, yet that was not so in the early Church.
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StCsDavid
Guest
Fair enough. My apologies if I offended.
What writings would you propose I reference to support the early Church’s position on the date of the authorship of Revelations?
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TPJCatholic
Guest
StCsDavid,
No problem at all…
I just think we should be careful…
Eusebius wrote that John was banished to Patmos during the reign of Domitian.
Irenaeus also places John on the island during the reign of Domitian.
St. Jerome also accepted that John was exiled during Domitian’s reign.
I know of no early Church witness that contradicts those witnesses, and one must recall that Irenaeus’ life was very closely associated with the actual apostolic age…his writings hold much weight.
Domitian reigned from 81-96 AD.
No problem at all…
I just think we should be careful…Eusebius wrote that John was banished to Patmos during the reign of Domitian.
Irenaeus also places John on the island during the reign of Domitian.
St. Jerome also accepted that John was exiled during Domitian’s reign.
I know of no early Church witness that contradicts those witnesses, and one must recall that Irenaeus’ life was very closely associated with the actual apostolic age…his writings hold much weight.
Domitian reigned from 81-96 AD.
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catholic2
Guest
You are correct when you say that John was exiled to Patmos during Emperor Domitian’s reign. Domitian’s reign was from 81 to 96AD. This of course puts this many years after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.
John describes the events in Revelation that he says was given to him on the Isle of Patmos (see Rev.1:9-10)
“I, John your brother, who share with you the distress, the kingdom, and the endurance we have in Jesujs, found myself on the island called Patmos because I proclaimed God’s word and gave testimony to Jesus. (10) I was caught up in spirit on the Lord’s day and heard behind me a voice as loud as a trumpet, which said …”
So there was no compilation from years prior to 70AD as the Preterist would like to believe. All they need to do is read the scriptures, it is so plain. Yet it appears they have scales on their eyes.
To continue, Domitian persecuted the Christians but later relented and allowed John leave from Patmos. After this exile at Patmos, John wrote his tremendous Gospel of John. Not many people realize that the last book of the bible written was the Gospel of John and not Revelation.
John describes the events in Revelation that he says was given to him on the Isle of Patmos (see Rev.1:9-10)
“I, John your brother, who share with you the distress, the kingdom, and the endurance we have in Jesujs, found myself on the island called Patmos because I proclaimed God’s word and gave testimony to Jesus. (10) I was caught up in spirit on the Lord’s day and heard behind me a voice as loud as a trumpet, which said …”
So there was no compilation from years prior to 70AD as the Preterist would like to believe. All they need to do is read the scriptures, it is so plain. Yet it appears they have scales on their eyes.
To continue, Domitian persecuted the Christians but later relented and allowed John leave from Patmos. After this exile at Patmos, John wrote his tremendous Gospel of John. Not many people realize that the last book of the bible written was the Gospel of John and not Revelation.
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catholic2
Guest
correction: John may have left Patmos after Domitians death, not because he was allowed by him. tnks
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StCsDavid
Guest
No so fast.
Epiphanius writes that John was imprisoned by Claudius who reigned from 41 to 54 AD. Irenaeus references ancient copies of The Apocalypse (Reveleations). It would seem odd to refer to a document as ancient if it had just been written.
What is more, the earliest translation of the Bible known as the Peshito, titles the Apocalyse with “The Revelation which was made by God to John the Evangelist in the island of Patmos, into which he was thrown by Nero Ceasar.” Our boy Nero died in 68AD. Check out Young’s Analytical Concordance.
Check this out…Origen called John’s exile on Patmos decided by the “king of the Romans,” a title only used for Julian emperors…Our buddy Nero was the last one of these.
I do agree that John probably wrote his Gospel last. I would favor he wrote Revelations first, then his letters, then his Gospel.
How are we to ignore these facts? I’ve enjoyed this discussion and do this in the spirit that regardless of our opinion, we all share a deep and abiding love for our Lord Jesus Christ.
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Chipper
Guest
It seems to me. that you may be misinterpreting the size of the new Jerusalem.
The bible says he measured the “City”, not the “side” or the “width”, again it says he measured the “CITY”. That length is stated as 12,000 stadia (remember written in greek). Also 12 is a hint.
At any rate, 12,000 stadia works out to about 1500 miles (total size).
This means that the city is actually 375 miles per side, but also 375 miles in height. Still not small, but considerably smaller than what you are suggesting.
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catholic2
Guest
Chipper: Thank you for your response. I never thought of it that way. Now you got me wondering…
What do others think? HELP!
What do others think? HELP!
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catholic2
Guest
Rev.21:16
*“The city was square, its length the same as its width. He measured the city with the rod and found it fifteen hundred miles in length and width and height.”
*How do you interpret this?
a. A cube of 1,500 miles.(1,500 miles each side)
b. A cube of 375 miles.(1,500 miles is the peremiter of the city.)
c. A cube of 500 miles (length + width + height)
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catholic2
Guest
I just started a poll on this question.
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catholic2
Guest
The poll is getting very few responses. Aren’t we interested in how our future home will look like?
John 14:2-3 *In my Father’s house there are many dwelling places. If there were not, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back again and take you to myself, so that where I am you also may be."
*The word of the Lord.
John 14:2-3 *In my Father’s house there are many dwelling places. If there were not, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back again and take you to myself, so that where I am you also may be."
*The word of the Lord.
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Chipper
Guest
Hi Catholic2.
First let me back up what you say. I would be interested in some technical interpretations about what Revelations is saying in reference to the size of the City.
But a little more background may be in order here. The Greek Scriptures would have used the term “Stadia” as the unit of length. Unfortunately nobody really knows how long a Stadia was. It seems to me I remember a Stadia being a reference to the length of a Stadium. But Stadiums were’nt always the same length either. Most modern interpretations seem to suggest a Stadia being somehwere beetween 607 and 660 feet. The KJV and earlier Catholic versions used the length of a “Furlong” as a measurement. A Furlong = 660 feet or an 1/8 of a mile. But, and but, there were no Furlongs in Ancient Greece.( By the way my last name is Furlong). At any rate the actual translation from a “Stadia” to modern Miles, is haphazard at best. This is also why they can’t locate Atlantis. Because Plato said it was 2,000 stadia ( I think) beyond the Pillar of Hercules. Not knowing the actual length, makes it difficult to p(name removed by moderator)oint.
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Rebecca_New
Guest
My Bible states in a footnote that this “twinkling of an eye” was stated before people knew that light does not go forth from an eye, but collects light from outside in. I think (personal enlightment) that it is just as it says, light coming out of the eyes of Our Beloved. Just a reply-no responses necessary -
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catholic2
Guest
Rebecca New:
1Cor. 50-52
*“This I declare, brothers; flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold I tell you a mystery. We shall not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed, in an instant, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
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Ahh Rebecca, thank you for your post, but I don’t think this is another metaphor. It simply means that an actual transformation will occur almost instantly. Some footnotes are terrible, and in this case even if it is true (the light source which I’ve heard of before), it can be misleading and give the reader a wrong conclusion.
1Cor. 50-52
*“This I declare, brothers; flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold I tell you a mystery. We shall not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed, in an instant, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
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catholic2
Guest
Here is a literal translation from Greek to english. It may sound awkward…(A complete text of the Greek New Testament from United Bible Societies’ Third Corrected Edition. Editor Paul R. McReynolds, Tyndale House Publishers, Inc., Wheaton, Illinois)
Rev.21:15-16
*“And the one speaking with me had measure reed gold, that he might measure the city and the gates of it and the wall of it. And the city four-cornered is set and the length of it as much as also the width. And he measured the city in the reed on stadia twelve thousands, the length and the width and the height of it equal is.”
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STADIA is mentioned also in Mt. 14:24; Lk 24:13; Jn 6:19, 11:18; 1C 9:24; Rev 14:20 as well as Rev. 21:16.
Stadia:
An ancient Greek measure of distance, based on the length of the race course on which foot races were held, equal to about 185 meters (607 feet)
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Sherlock
Guest
The RCC does not hold to the Preterist view and I would consider that view quite heretical.
This is not true whatsoever. Catholics are, in fact, free to subscribe to the preterist view if they so choose. They are also free to reject it. There are a number of highly-respected Catholic apologists that subscribe to the preterist view.
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