Size of the universe and the boundary problem

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Here we discuss the fact that the size of universe is infinite otherwise we face a problem. Lets define the volume of the universe to be V, its boundary to be B and its shape to be S. Whatever the V, B and S are we need to embed the universe inside another thing. Lets call this as anther universe with volume of V’, boundary of B’ and shape of S’. It is obvious that we have the same problem with the second universe as we had with the first one, namely we have to embed it in another universe. This process has to be continued until there is no need for embedding any longer which means that the size of final universe must be infinite. It is obvious that we get ride boundary problem by sending the boundary to infinity.
 
There are various models. Some assume an infinite universe and others a finite universe. To understand either would, I think, require a PhD in astrophysics or equivalent knowledge / study. I won’t pretend that I can contribute to such a discussion.
 
STT said:
Here we discuss the fact that the size of universe is infinite otherwise we face a problem. Lets define the volume of the universe to be V, its boundary to be B and its shape to be S. Whatever the V, B and S are we need to embed the universe inside another thing. Lets call this as anther universe with volume of V’, boundary of B’ and shape of S’. It is obvious that we have the same problem with the second universe as we had with the first one, namely we have to embed it in another universe. This process has to be continued until there is no need for embedding any longer which means that the size of final universe must be infinite. It is obvious that we get ride boundary problem by sending the boundary to infinity.
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SST
It doesn’t take much imagination to figure this out.

At one time after the big bang the universe was the size of a pumpkin; it was finite then, it is still finite because nothing can expand to infinity. Because the universe is finite, Totality (both known and unknown reality) is divided into two realms separated by a boundary: our universe and whatever came before and exists beyond the universe, the before/beyond. Since it is space that defines the dimensions of the universe, the boundary must be formed from the two kinds of space, discrete space defined by the rational numbers and continuous space defined by the real numbers. The “physical” space that defines the dimensions of the universe is discrete; the “abstract” space that defines the before/beyond is continuous.
Yppop
 
yppop said:
SST
It doesn’t take much imagination to figure this out.

At one time after the big bang the universe was the size of a pumpkin; it was finite then, it is still finite because nothing can expand to infinity. Because the universe is finite, Totality (both known and unknown reality) is divided into two realms separated by a boundary: our universe and whatever came before and exists beyond the universe, the before/beyond. Since it is space that defines the dimensions of the universe, the boundary must be formed from the two kinds of space, discrete space defined by the rational numbers and continuous space defined by the real numbers. The “physical” space that defines the dimensions of the universe is discrete; the “abstract” space that defines the before/beyond is continuous.
Yppop
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You are basically dividing the totality into two parts, universe and beyond. Our universe somehow is embedded inside beyond. The question which is left is what is the size of beyond?

Moreover we don’t know if the size of universe at Big Bang was very small. The size in fact could be infinite. You can read more about this in here.
 
There is no boundary. We are not expanding ‘into’ anything. Space itself is expanding. And something which doesn’t have a boundary is not necessarily infinite.
 
The universe itself might be a 3D surface that is the boundary of a 4D shape. That is, our universe could be finite, closed, and have no edge.

But that doesn’t mean it needs to exist within another universe with boundaries.
 
Bradski said:
There is no boundary. We are not expanding ‘into’ anything. Space itself is expanding. And something which doesn’t have a boundary is not necessarily infinite.
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Where do you get if you move straight forever?
 
STT said:
Where do you get if you move straight forever?
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Consider the surface of a sphere, like the earth. Where do you get if you move straight forever? You don’t ever hit an edge.
 
Wesrock said:
The universe itself might be a 3D surface that itself is the boundary of a 4D shape. That is, our universe could be finite, closed, and have no edge.
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Yes, but that means that you need to embed your 3D surface into 4D volume. Etc.
Wesrock said:
But that doesn’t mean it needs to exist within another universe with boundaries.
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That I understand that a 3D surface does not essentially have a border.
 
Wesrock said:
Consider the surface of a sphere, like the earth. Where do you get if you move straight forever? You don’t ever hit an edge.
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Yes, that I understand that if you go straight on a sphere surface then you return to the place that you have started. The problem is your sphere is embedded in a 3D volume. So the boundary problem persist to exist.
 
Bradski said:
If space is curved, back where you started.

We’ll wait here. Let us know when you get back.
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Think of space as a the surface 4D sphere. That is true that you get back to the place you have started. But your sphere is embedded into a 4D volume.
 
yppop said:
SST
It doesn’t take much imagination to figure this out.

At one time after the big bang the universe was the size of a pumpkin; it was finite then, it is still finite because nothing can expand to infinity. Because the universe is finite, Totality (both known and unknown reality) is divided into two realms separated by a boundary: our universe and whatever came before and exists beyond the universe, the before/beyond. Since it is space that defines the dimensions of the universe, the boundary must be formed from the two kinds of space, discrete space defined by the rational numbers and continuous space defined by the real numbers. The “physical” space that defines the dimensions of the universe is discrete; the “abstract” space that defines the before/beyond is continuous.
Yppop
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Can you explain the last part of that paragraph further?
 
STT said:
Think of space as a the surface 4D sphere. That is true that you get back to the place you have started. But your sphere is embedded into a 4D volume.
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I’m not sure how many mistakes you have made in that post, but it’s probably quite a few.

I say ‘probably’, because I would be astonished if anyone on this forum (myself included) had even 1% of the knowledge to be able to explain this aspect of reality. But suffice it to say that if you try to imagine it in your mind’s eye or try to suggest an analogy which would simplify the concept, you are definitely getting it wrong.

We are not built to understand this as a concept. It can only be explained accurately using mathematics. Good luck with that.
 
Bradski said:
I’m not sure how many mistakes you have made in that post, but it’s probably quite a few.

I say ‘probably’, because I would be astonished if anyone on this forum (myself included) had even 1% of the knowledge to be able to explain this aspect of reality. But suffice it to say that if you try to imagine it in your mind’s eye or try to suggest an analogy which would simplify the concept, you are definitely getting it wrong.

We are not built to understand this as a concept. It can only be explained accurately using mathematics. Good luck with that.
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Sorry for mistypes. This is what I wanted to say: “Think of space as the surface of 4D sphere. That is true that you get back to the place you have started but your 4D sphere is embedded into a 4D volume.”
 
A) The size of the universe is unknown. Even the last Hubble deep space image showed faint galaxies in the background.

B) Nothing cannot exist. The absence of all the things we recognize in the universe cannot exist and as far as anyone knows, cannot be known.

C) Our galaxy could be in the middle of the universe or near an edge, but what lies beyond that edge is unknown.

D) Infinity means infinity. Infinity times infinity does not yield a greater number or distance.

E) Assuming a boundary, it may be reflective. Take the air inside a balloon and replace it with galaxies and energy. Like atoms of air, the galaxies reach the boundary and rebound back into the universe. Not because the boundary is made of a flexible material like a balloon but because the galaxies are deflected by the edge since it contains enough energy to cause the deflection. Perhaps like a charge difference or polarity difference. The alternative would be the boundary has accumulated so much energy that complete disintegration occurs, perhaps leaving behind some energy.

Ed
 
thinkandmull said:
Can you explain the last part of that paragraph further?
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TaM
Thank you for the unusual (for this forum) request for more information instead of the usual disputatious response, but could you be more specific?
Yppop
 
I’m often reminded of the story of the trinity ,
Where the boy runs back and forth to the sea,
Wanting to empty the sea into the hole he had dug ,
Saint Augustine walked by asking the boy what he was doing,
When told, he said it’s impossible to empty the sea into the hole,
The hole isn’t big enough,
And the boy turned into an Angel and explained, and so it is with the human mind,
The human mind can never understand great knowledge ,it’s just not big enough.
Code: 
Words to that effect,,,
We will understand great things, because we have great computers to work things out
But even they can’t know everything , take a look at models of the universe ,
They seem similar to the structure of the human mind,
The structure of the Universe is so huge , it is difficult for us to Comprehend ,
Question to ask is ,Why is it so huge ? Would our opinion of the Universe be any different
If there’re were only One Galaxy and Nothing else ?
Our Galaxy is nothing special compared to other Galaxies ,
Ours is just one rather small galaxy which will in some future time get run over by the Andromeda Galaxy , and in time will become one ,🙂
 
Fascinating subject. I have been reading this, New Proofs for the Existence of God, which goes into the various theories in depth.
There are various theories about the size of the universe, the Big Bang, or the possibility of a bouncing universe.
Way over my pay grade.

.
 
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