Skeptic Michael Shermer: Skepticism shaken to its core

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Pallas_Athene said:
All the time? Can you bring up an actual example of this? A REAL example… please. . . I already told you that the scripture is not an argument for non-Christians. Why should I “think about it”? A nonsensical utterance will stay nonsensical . . . ?
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I am with you regarding the nonsense part.
I have difficulty arguing the point that God can transform an evil into a good. You don’t believe in God, and you don’t accept scripture as evidence.
I don’t know what you mean by good and evil. If they are not objective, one can easily transform one into another by reframing one’s view of moral reality, which would be subjective. None of this is material, so does it actually exist?
And, what is reality? While the answer is obvious, I do not believe we could ever come to an agreement.
So, why do I bother? Meh, it’s a long train ride back to the city.

The question I will answer has to do with where we see good come from evil within our daily lives:
  • in situations where self-control is required, we exhibit temperance, industry, thrift and curiosity
  • where we must overcome adversity, we exhibit courage, patience and perseverence
  • with regards to others, we are truthful, tolerant, respectful, fair, humble and kind
    We try to be virtuous in difficult situations and where it might cause harm to another to act in our self-interest.
Through such actions in evil circumstances we become more fully human. We differ in these capacities because these are ultimately gifts from God, which we grow through the putting of faith into action.
 
It takes a very deliberately blind person to not see how good can come from evil.
It happens all the time.

In the death of a loved one, those who loved the loved one are called to patience, trust, endurance, reliance on others, keeping alive the memory of ______, establishing foundations and memorials for _______,
ETC…Virtues can be enhanced through life experience of all kinds. Life experience, including evil, binds people together and calls us to a renewed vision of, and pursuit of, the good.

It takes a deliberately blind person to not appreciate how good can come out of every situation, because everyone without exception suffers. Essentially we have a blindness to reality here, or simply a dearth of experience in what it means to be fully human. Is there anyone here who does not suffer? Show of hands please.

Despite suffering we go on and live good lives, hopefully. The vicissitudes of life are simply part of life. And life is good. Or maybe I am mistaken about that?..maybe life is bad because bad things happen?

I personally join with other Christians in rejecting a world in which human beings are objects of, and slaves to, evil. I reject a world in which human beings are condemned and unredeemable from judgement. I reject a world in which human beings are defined by and enslaved by their mistakes for the rest of their lives. I reject a world in which human beings can’t see the value in self-sacrifice for the sake of others.
 
PRmerger said:
Sigh.

If you’re going to focus on the quantity, then I happily will remove the quantification: God can and does turn evil into good.

How about that?
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How short is your attention span? The next sentence was: “Can you bring up an actual example of this? A REAL example… please.” Concentrate on that, if you would. As for the name of “good Friday”, be aware that this expression is not universal at all. I know several languages where it is not called “good”.

The problem is that the catholic teaching explicitly asserts that “one cannot do evil, so that good may come out of it”. Even if the intent is good, the result will NOT be good, if evil means are used. That is the catholic teaching… not mine.

You also said that torturing a child for fun is intrinsically evil, and not even God can bring out anything good from it. Yet God could transform the “greatest evil = deicide” into good (allegedly). So “deicide” is not intrinsically evil?
 
Pallas_Athene said:
…
A REAL example… please.
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" Concentrate on that, if you would.
…

Again, it takes an obstinately and deliberately blind person to avoid seeing that good comes from evil all the time
(ok…
frequently…
for some people…
99% of the time…
for those obsessed with humanity as numbers).

I find it interesting that people who exalt evidence and observation can be so patently and intentionally blind to the world around them so as to deny that good comes from evil situations -all the time-. No reasonable person should deny what is obviously revealed. The opposite is insanity. The opposite of accepting what is revealed is tyranny of self. It’s like demanding someone prove the sun exists and provides warmth and light. Well look, there it is. Your denial of it does not change the reality, it just leads to un-reason.

But to indulge your demand to jump through legal hoops once again…
Every time a family forgives a murderer, good is brought out of evil. When a parent is sick or injured and an estranged family comes together to help, good comes out of evil. When someone is deprived of food and others come to help, good is brought out of evil.

So then, if you are blind, this is not really about reason and evidence, is it? It’s about radical individualism. It’s about you, enforcing your point of view at the cost of reason. Common sense and reason are the casualties here. As you bluntly pointed out in one of your prior posts, everyone else is wrong, simply because they disagree with you, not because of their point of view is meritless. Since when is a point of view meritless simply because it disagrees with you? And what does that say about the content of your own point of view?
All you have left is quibbling over words like “all” to the point of absurdity. It’s an easy shelter for the inability to dialogue in good faith.
 
Pallas_Athene said:
. . . “good Friday”. . . expression is not universal at all. I know several languages where it is not called “good”. . . catholic teaching explicitly asserts that “one cannot do evil, so that good may come out of it”. Even if the intent is good, the result will NOT be good, if evil means are used. That is the catholic teaching… not mine. . . torturing a child for fun is intrinsically evil, and not even God can bring out anything good from it. Yet God could transform the “greatest evil = deicide” into good (allegedly). So “deicide” is not intrinsically evil?
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It is “Good” Friday because it is sacred, not because it is a good thing that we killed jesus or that we sin.
I believe that the reference is as such in most languages.
What is very, very good news is Easter, when Jesus was resurrected.

It is a universal tendency in mankind to find the good in any situation.
This does not change anything about the evil act itself, but our response mitigates its impact on reality.

As to the scenario you describe, since we are eternal beings, the child will find himself face-to-face with God in paradise.
The suffering of parents, relatives and friends is shared with God, in whose love we find true consolation and peace.
We have need of a criminal justice system to regulate society, but true justice is best left up to God.
 
Bradski said:
I’m not playing tit for tat. Answer the question or not, as you choose.
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As you wish. 🤷

I stand by my original assertion:

Both sides, as presented, “make zero sense. Absolutely zero sense whatsoever.”

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

#caricaturesareotioseinthiscontext
 
PRmerger said:
Such as?

And this is by a Christian church?
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The point is not to come to specific understanding, it’s to find open ended debate about words like “good”, and “all”.
You know, words that are full of varied and possibly ambiguous meanings. :rolleyes:

I can remember a famous politician once saying, when his position had no substance left,
"It depends on what you mean by the word “is” ".
 
clem456 said:
The point is not to come to specific understanding, it’s to find open ended debate about words like “good”, and “all”.
You know, words that are full of varied and possibly ambiguous meanings. :rolleyes:

I can remember a famous politician once saying, when his position had no substance left,
"It depends on what you mean by the word “is” ".
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We all see the diversionary attempts.

Suddenly the objection is to the use of the word “all”.

 
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