Skepticism Hollywood Style

[djeter]

Here’s a scene from a movie that is a powerful argument for skepticism. I was wondering how an apologist might respond to this

Any opinions?

dj

 

[Miserys_Fence]

I’m not an apologist…I’m not Catholic…and I’m no expert on the subject matter. But using the example from the movie clip, I don’t see the issue as being the “infinite number of causes” as to how the sword ended up in the field. I see the issue at hand as being that Jeanne DID find it, when there are an “infinite number” of other places she could have been at the time.

In other words, to me, the fact that a given sign or spiritual experience may have other causes is irrelevant. What matters is that it appeared to me, when odds are just as great that it wouldn’t have.

There have been several examples in my own life (and here I must digress just a bit to “set the stage”). My (Catholic) fiance told me that robins had a special meaning to him and his mother, and whenever he was feeling sad or confused or missing her very much and he saw a robin, he knew it was her way of reminding him of her love. After he passed away, I knew he would do the same for me; but for us, herons have a special meaning.

Since I moved to this area, I had seen about 3 or 4 herons; since my fiance passed in August, I’ve seen probably over a dozen. And no, it’s not that I’m looking for them more than before; my mom is a heron fanatic and I’ve always been on the lookout for them when I’m near a body of water.

Rationally, there are untold thousands of herons out there in this general area and it shouldn’t be unusual to see one every now and again. But as I don’t actually live on a large body of water as my folks do (and I don’t think I’ve ever seen one there myself), every time I see a heron it is just as likely, if not more so, that I wouldn’t be seeing one. (I hope that makes sense…)

Miz

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

I’m not an apologist…I’m not Catholic…and I’m no expert on the subject matter. But using the example from the movie clip, I don’t see the issue as being the “infinite number of causes” as to how the sword ended up in the field. I see the issue at hand as being that Jeanne DID find it, when there are an “infinite number” of other places she could have been at the time.

In other words, to me, the fact that a given sign or spiritual experience may have other causes is irrelevant. What matters is that it appeared to me, when odds are just as great that it wouldn’t have.

There have been several examples in my own life (and here I must digress just a bit to “set the stage”). My (Catholic) fiance told me that robins had a special meaning to him and his mother, and whenever he was feeling sad or confused or missing her very much and he saw a robin, he knew it was her way of reminding him of her love. After he passed away, I knew he would do the same for me; but for us, herons have a special meaning.

Since I moved to this area, I had seen about 3 or 4 herons; since my fiance passed in August, I’ve seen probably over a dozen. And no, it’s not that I’m looking for them more than before; my mom is a heron fanatic and I’ve always been on the lookout for them when I’m near a body of water.

Rationally, there are untold thousands of herons out there in this general area and it shouldn’t be unusual to see one every now and again. But as I don’t actually live on a large body of water as my folks do (and I don’t think I’ve ever seen one there myself), every time I see a heron it is just as likely, if not more so, that I wouldn’t be seeing one. (I hope that makes sense…)

Miz

This is spot on.

Im my experience, God will use a common thing to reach you. What matters is that you DO find it, and what it means to YOU.

 

[Charlotte408]

That was pretty intense…I want to watch the movie now…Joan of Arc??? Anyone know the story? Does this guy break her or … ??

And I agree with above poster…God sends messages at just the right time and to anyone else they could be meaningless but to us it speaks volumes, He knows just what or how to get thru to you…and you feel it in your heart…like in the clip i guess she was walking thru a field and found a sword- i’m assuming she took it as a sign from God because at THAT moment she was, idk, in need, or had questions, on any other day if she had found it she might not have thought anything, but on THAT day, at THAT time, it carried a message to her…

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

That was pretty intense…I want to watch the movie now…Joan of Arc??? Anyone know the story? Does this guy break her or … ??

And I agree with above poster…God sends messages at just the right time and to anyone else they could be meaningless but to us it speaks volumes, He knows just what or how to get thru to you…and you feel it in your heart…like in the clip i guess she was walking thru a field and found a sword- i’m assuming she took it as a sign from God because at THAT moment she was, idk, in need, or had questions, on any other day if she had found it she might not have thought anything, but on THAT day, at THAT time, it carried a message to her…

Actually I think the movie is called 'The Messenger: Story of Joan of Arc"

The guy played by Dustin Hoffman is satan who is trying to get her to break and give in to the requests of the British before she is burned at the stake. (sorry, should have put a spoiler alert…but seeing as how the story is around 500 years old, I think the statute of limitations has run out on that…LOL)

 

[Bluegoat]

To go to another Hollywood movie, try Contact with Jodi Foster. It is about how we “know” and what kind of credit we give to these kinds of spiritual experiences. They don’t really give you an answer, but it is an interesting study about how one skeptic comes to deal with this kind of experience. It has a bit of a cop-out ending, and the male lead character is annoying, but I think it’s a worthwhile rental.

 

[Spencerian]

Here’s a scene from a movie that is a powerful argument for skepticism. I was wondering how an apologist might respond to this

Any opinions?

dj

I’m a big patron of Jeanne d’Arc. I have a copy of The Messenger that I wanted to watch (where this clip came from).

I’ve never been able to watch this movie from its start (the dream sequence and the sword). It’s far too fictionalized.

The YouTube poster’s argument is invalid. He is showing a fictionalized version of the Joan of Arc legend. *The Messenger *movie does not correspond to the written historical accounts from Jeanne, the men and women who knew and worked with her, and the men who prosecuted her.

I have an excellent, sourced biography of the saint by Donald Spoto, called simply, Joan. Nowhere does Jeanne experience a vision of a sword as a child as shown in this movie based on the historical records. While she does have a crisis of faith while locked in the tower at Rouen, she ultimately holds firm to her love and trust in Christ and Mary as she is executed.

You can’t use fictionalized versions of historical people in a dramatization to argue for the claims of skepticism in this fashion. Fiction is not truth, and therefore any conclusions made from this movie are de facto invalid.

 

[lorathon]

While this is a joke, I have always thought the deeper meaning is the true reality. As it is said, “God works in mysterious ways, who are we to question Him.”

There was an old man sitting on his porch watching the rain fall. Pretty soon the water was coming over the porch and into the house.

The old man was still sitting there when a rescue boat came and the people on board said, “You can’t stay here you have to come with us.”

The old man replied, “No, God will save me.” So the boat left. A little while later the water was up to the second floor, and another rescue boat came, and again told the old man he had to come with them.

The old man again replied, “God will save me.” So the boat left him again.

An hour later the water was up to the roof and a third rescue boat approached the old man, and tried to get him to come with them.

Again the old man refused to leave stating that, “God will save him.” So the boat left him again.

Soon after, the man drowns and goes to heaven, and when he sees God he asks him, “Why didn’t you save me?”

God replied, “You dummy! I tried. I sent three boats after you!!”

 

[reggieM]

The life of St. Joan is an excellent argument against this Hollywood skepticism. It’s unfortunate that they felt the need to rewrite her story to give Satan a more commanding role.

 

[abucs]

I watched the movie again on DVD last weekend.

It seems a little silly to argue about what a movie actor is experiencing or not experiencing in a written movie scene.

Dustin Hoffman is actually part of her visions which the movie shows but which the short youtube clip doesn’t.

The movie seems a little confused and i thought that the Dustin Hoffman character actually played the role of God in the movie.

To address skepticism on a more realistic level, it depends what type of skepticism it is.

For example, some people take Georges LeMaitre’s Big Bang and Isaac Newtons ideas of the laws of nature and say everything has to be described from that and are skeptical of anything outside that narrow view.

The problem with that type of skepticism is that it doesn’t leave any room for conscience. Everything is simply Big Bang particles obeying necessary laws of nature with no room for anything else - including conscience or thinking or the individual and free will.

I’d question such skepticism by asking them exactly what do they mean by conscience ?
And how can conscience exist in only an existance of the big bang and laws of nature (which were both discovered by Christans by the way).

Perhaps it might help them to see that not only is their view a cut down narrow version of Christian thinking, but that it is also incomplete and leaves no room for conscience, rational thinking or intelligence to exist.

 

[StrawberryJam]

I watched the movie again on DVD last weekend.

It seems a little silly to argue about what a movie actor is experiencing or not experiencing in a written movie scene.

Dustin Hoffman is actually part of her visions which the movie shows but which the short youtube clip doesn’t.

The movie seems a little confused and i thought that the Dustin Hoffman character actually played the role of God in the movie.

To address skepticism on a more realistic level, it depends what type of skepticism it is.

For example, some people take Georges LeMaitre’s Big Bang and Isaac Newtons ideas of the laws of nature and say everything has to be described from that and are skeptical of anything outside that narrow view.
The problem with that type of skepticism is that it doesn’t leave any room for conscience. Everything is simply Big Bang particles obeying necessary laws of nature with no room for anything else - including conscience or thinking or the individual and free will.

I’d question such skepticism by asking them exactly what do they mean by conscience ?
And how can conscience exist in only an existance of the big bang and laws of nature (which were both discovered by Christans by the way).

Perhaps it might help them to see that not only is their view a cut down narrow version of Christian thinking, but that it is also incomplete and leaves no room for conscience, rational thinking or intelligence to exist.

Conscience? Rational thinking? Intelligence?

Ugg.

 

[Voice_of_Reason_1]

Wow, impressive clip. Seeing what we want to see certainly would explain why God or gods are subject to a near-unlimited amount of different interpretations of the divine. We would expect more consistency from a God if He were a true one. Omens, as a pagan tradition, have carried on their legacy in Christianity, however slight or obscure they may be.

 

[Michael_Francis]

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