Skirts and Heels

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Does this “skirts and heels” thing run both ways? I mean, where’s the thread talking about men in suits and ties?
Start one!
No-one realistically expects men to wear suits and ties as they go about their daily business, whether it be work or casual.
Actually, suits are often more comfortable than casual clothes. Besides, skirt alone isn’t on the same level with a suit and tie. Suit and tie is more like, say, dressy skirt and dressy blouse, or a dress for going out. There are also casual dresses, actually. Fashion shops still have those on the shelves. They don’t register as formal, really. Any dress just by being a dress probably qualifies as smart casual these days (counterpart of nice trousers and button-down shirt on a man), but that’s not formal attire yet.

Besides, I believe the OP’s point wasn’t about clothes being not formal enough but rather about women having abandoned the more feminine kinds of attire, as well as caring less about the outfit looking pretty than their mothers or grandmothers did, which can’t be denied. As I’ve said, however, I’ve noticed improvement these last years.
Yet for some reason there’s an expectation for women to wear skirts and heels?
Again, wrong premise putting skirt and suit & tie on the same level. Suit & tie is one or two registers higher, depending on the exact colour, cut and fabric etc.
The sexist double-standard is mind-boggling,
What’s mind-boggling is the logical leaps some female posters take. 😉
and that quote someone posted earlier, about the young man who only held doors open for the woman wearing a skirt… wow, what a horrible, nasty and superficial guy he was.
I disagree with his response, but I very much understand his feelings. By the way, there’s nothing more rewarding than holding the door or pulling the chair for a liberated feminist. 😛

For a bit of a vision, just imagine what a young schoolboy goes through - from girls as well - when he treats girls like ladies instead of like “chicks”. Granted, he should be able to take it without flinching, but let those who aren’t fighters not talk about the battle.
 
Actually, suits are often more comfortable than casual clothes… [etc]
I think my premise is pretty clear, without discussing the subtle echelons of fashion.
What’s mind-boggling is the logical leaps some female posters take.
Whilst I appreciate your pointing out what the OP was saying, you do realise that there are many posts between mine and the OP that I could possibly be making reference to.
Certainly, conveying an appropriate message via clothing style… does lend credence to a woman’s pretence of being a lady and wanting to be treated as such.
Women that wear jeans 24/7, even in church, are a huge turn off for me.
I don’t understand the significance of pointing out I’m a “female”? The implication is condescending, despite the 🙂 .
By the way, there’s nothing more rewarding than holding the door or pulling the chair for a liberated feminist.
You do realise, right, that putting a happy icon next to your insults doesn’t make them any less insulting.

P.S. As an aside, if suits are “often more comfortable than casual clothes”, and high heels are generally quite painful to wear for extended periods, that really undermines the male point.
 
I think my premise is pretty clear, without discussing the subtle echelons of fashion.
If it’s pertinent, you can’t skip it just because it’s slightly different.
I don’t understand the significance of pointing out I’m a “female”? The implication is condescending, despite the 🙂 .
I’ve lost you on the first sentence. As for the general message, please notice the “24/7”. He precisely said “24/7” was a turn-off for him, which means it’s 24/7 and not just some or most of the time, and he said a “turn-off”, which clearly marks it as part of the process of attraction, not as a moral judgement, and he added “for me”, which shows he was discussing his feelings instead of casting blame around. This should be visible before dissecting his statements.
You do realise, right, that putting a happy icon next to your insults doesn’t make them any less insulting.
Of course it doesn’t, but I don’t see any insults there. Some women here will be offended if a man even throws the word “skirt” or “long hair” in the air.
P.S. As an aside, if suits are “often more comfortable than casual clothes”, and high heels are generally quite painful to wear for extended periods, that really undermines the male point.
That was a remark on the side and I’m pretty sure it very well refers to much of what women wear on business or formal occasions, such as err… suits, or suits with a skirt, or even probably a dress. Plus, your whole point is invalid because just any skirt does not automatically make it formal, or equivalent to suit and tie.
I like how you said ‘some’ 'here…not just all or …is the logical leaps female posters take. Yay, progress is being made!! 😃 :rotfl:
Progress what from? I don’t recall things being different before.
 
If I understand magickman and chevalier, they aren’t saying that you’re disgusting as a female if you’re not wearing skirts and heels, they’re saying that if you dress well - and generally a decent skirt and some low heels make us look well dressed - you will be more attractive. That’s true, and completely unoffensive. If you go out in sweats, you look sloppy, and sloppy is not well dressed.

I remember a girl who went to the post office in her usual clothing - army pant and a big tee-shirt, with a buzzed head and combat boots. She looked bulky and scary. But when an old man saw her and shook his head in disgust, she was hurt and offended. She told me he was judging her for not looking like the women he remembers from the forties and fifties. I think he was judging her for looking sloppy. For not caring enough to make herself attractive, but wanting to be seen as attractive anyway.

If a woman doesn’t care about looking good, fine, but she can’t expect anyone to think she looks good, because face it, she generally doesn’t. The same goes for men.
I don’t understand the significance of pointing out I’m a “female”? The implication is condescending,
I don’t understand, why is it condescending to be recognized as a female? We should never be ashamed to be women.
 
*Nevermind chev…it was meant to be funny. Think I’m done with this thread…things are being taken things waaaay too seriously sometimes. *
 
If I understand magickman and chevalier, they aren’t saying that you’re disgusting as a female if you’re not wearing skirts and heels, they’re saying that if you dress well - and generally a decent skirt and some low heels make us look well dressed - you will be more attractive. That’s true, and completely unoffensive. If you go out in sweats, you look sloppy, and sloppy is not well dressed.

I remember a girl who went to the post office in her usual clothing - army pant and a big tee-shirt, with a buzzed head and combat boots. She looked bulky and scary. But when an old man saw her and shook his head in disgust, she was hurt and offended. She told me he was judging her for not looking like the women he remembers from the forties and fifties. I think he was judging her for looking sloppy. For not caring enough to make herself attractive, but wanting to be seen as attractive anyway.

If a woman doesn’t care about looking good, fine, but she can’t expect anyone to think she looks good, because face it, she generally doesn’t. The same goes for men.

I don’t understand, why is it condescending to be recognized as a female? We should never be ashamed to be women.
:clapping: Second that!

I kind of feel sorry for the folks who go around looking for insults in everything. Must get exhausting, having your hackles up all the time.
 
See, I went to college where the dean was an impecably dressed woman. EVERYTHING matched. She wore high heels (she was barley 5" with really tall heels) and was just the most incredibly dressed person I’ve ever met.

I wouldn’t be caught dead in half the fashions she tried but they worked on her. Her purse, earings…her planner for that day, her reading glasses, her cell cover…EVERYTHING matched in an incredible way that I don’t think any fashion designer could imagine. Not just a generic “black goes with everything” sort of idea.

One time she came from the gym in sweats. Even in sneakers and sweats she still maintained that air of perfection in dress. The sweats fit her well and she still looked rather classy. We all snickered “____ was in sweats!!!” but inside we were in complete awe of how she looked so perfect coming out of the gym.

One of my best guy friends said that his favourite thing was to see girls in well-fitting clothes more than anything…nice jeans, and a cute hoodie (without that hidous slit in the neck to make it bigger), and clean, usable sneakers. He hated frumpy dresses and said he found them positively repulsive. He also stated that he thought that the thinner the and taller the heel the less practical and more wordly the woman was.

I like my jeans and I have cute sweaters.

But I agree with the sentiment of posters about what guys wear. Guys shouldn’t be wearing jeans either, if they don’t want women to. Nice kackis and button down shirt on a guy is the equivalent to, say, a peasant skirt and nice sweater/shirt.

Guess what, guys…you’re just as much to blame for this trend. What women wants to be in high fasion with skirts and other “bling” when the guy has a chewed up texas longhorn sweat shirt and well-worn jeans?

And Masha…I’m sorry but there are different cultures as far as fashion going around in the US. The girl may have been quite attractive to young men of this day in age. I was in the far southwest and there were many women with shaved heads as a fashion who were being chased with guys with hair past their hind end. It was a disturbing, but rather accepted, trend. Combat fatigues are also a rather accepted clothing item, especially among 18-25yo’s around military installations. Some are just posers but others wear the clothes in support of a love one overseas.
 
Am the only woman who doesn’t think a man in a suit is all that masculine or attractive? 🤷 I truly don’t.
 
If I understand magickman and chevalier, they aren’t saying that you’re disgusting as a female if you’re not wearing skirts and heels, they’re saying that if you dress well - and generally a decent skirt and some low heels make us look well dressed - you will be more attractive.
Yes, not always, but as a rule yes. I don’t know about Magickman, but I’m not getting stuck on heels and skirt - you may well replace it with something equivalent or a general idea of classy smart casual.
That’s true, and completely unoffensive. If you go out in sweats, you look sloppy, and sloppy is not well dressed.
Yes. Obviously, if you’re at the lakeside, operating a fishing knife while chasing away a halfwild cat, you aren’t going to look impeccable. I don’t really have a huge problem with people being somewhat dishevelled - my chief gripe is just stuff that doesn’t match or stuff that’s plain ugly. I think many people will point out that this is very subjective, but I believe that when I say “ugly”, it rings a bell, because people want at the same time to follow the fashion which tells them to look ugly, and to be seen as pretty, which is something they took from home in more properly ordered times. So a girl could wear army boots with black leggings and a short white skirt with pink polka dots and a dressy shirt with a non-dressy denim camisole over it, oversized earrings and adopt a facial impression you would expect from a carricatural jail warden. To that I say no. Obviously, my example is overdrawn and normally people don’t go that far. However, they go too far already and it’s bad, it’s not good.
I remember a girl who went to the post office in her usual clothing - army pant and a big tee-shirt, with a buzzed head and combat boots. She looked bulky and scary. But when an old man saw her and shook his head in disgust, she was hurt and offended. She told me he was judging her for not looking like the women he remembers from the forties and fifties. I think he was judging her for looking sloppy. For not caring enough to make herself attractive, but wanting to be seen as attractive anyway.
Yes. A Christian needs to control disgust directed towards a human person, his neighbour, but this doesn’t invalidate the cake mechanics, i.e. wanting to have a cake and eat it.

One can always expect basic human respect and hope for a bit more, regardless of the way one bears himself, but choosing a style is subject to the same laws of choice and consequence.

Obviously, as said above, situation does matter.
If a woman doesn’t care about looking good, fine, but she can’t expect anyone to think she looks good, because face it, she generally doesn’t. The same goes for men.
Yes. These days, some people seem as if they were trying to pick the ugliest mismatch while showing off, which makes it a form of dressing up. This must be a social thing, some kind of wide-spread subculture.
I don’t understand, why is it condescending to be recognized as a female? We should never be ashamed to be women.
Definitely. You’re kinda the cherry on the cake in the species.
One time she came from the gym in sweats. Even in sneakers and sweats she still maintained that air of perfection in dress. The sweats fit her well and she still looked rather classy. We all snickered “____ was in sweats!!!” but inside we were in complete awe of how she looked so perfect coming out of the gym.
Yes, I was trying to turn attention to that too. Appropriateness for the occasion is a good thing, obviously, without getting stuck on etiquette. Being classy, as opposed to trying to look ugly, offensive or whatever else is hip these days, that’s key.
I like my jeans and I have cute sweaters.
Great for you. Girls look cute in those on casual occasions.
But I agree with the sentiment of posters about what guys wear. Guys shouldn’t be wearing jeans either, if they don’t want women to. Nice kackis and button down shirt on a guy is the equivalent to, say, a peasant skirt and nice sweater/shirt.
I commend your sense of proportion. Incidentally, what you mentioned is the way I dressed throughout pretty much all of my late teens and early twenties. By the way, there are jeans and jeans, and jeans are appropriate on some occasions. Anyway, I don’t have any particular problem with people who wear jeans and t-shirts on most occasions. My problem is with the general dressing down, abandonment of dressing up, putting ugliness in the vogue and no longer trying to look pretty or handsome. “Ugly” is a word I’m getting more and more comfortable using.
 
And Masha…I’m sorry but there are different cultures as far as fashion going around in the US. The girl may have been quite attractive to young men of this day in age. I was in the far southwest and there were many women with shaved heads as a fashion who were being chased with guys with hair past their hind end. It was a disturbing, but rather accepted, trend. Combat fatigues are also a rather accepted clothing item, especially among 18-25yo’s around military installations. Some are just posers but others wear the clothes in support of a love one overseas.
I guess I should clarify. I’ve seen shaved hair on women look fantastic - my sister, actually, had her head buzzed for her wedding and looked great. Combat fatigues too, can work. But in this case, they didn’t. They were too bulking, and some faces don’t do well without hair. In this case, the clothes, coupled with the girl herself and her attitude in wearing them that worked together to form the over-all impression. 🙂
 
It seems to me that the biggest generality is most people are attracted to someone who is generally clean, and has applied some time and thought to their appearance. (Perhaps not too much time and thought, though some might disagree with that.)

Generally, people who do not care for their appearance at all, not washing etc, are having some kind of mental health issues.

But it seems to me that other than that, different people find all kinds of styles and ways of dressing attractive. I don’t see punks, goths, hippies, bikers, conservative Christians, ladies who lunch, etc. failing to find people of the opposite sex who appreciate their sense of style.

But most people do find it disturbing when they are judged only on their style. To some extent that can be silly - if you are wearing clothes that suggest your values are anarchist, you can hardly blame for people thinking you are an anarchist. OTOH, none of us is one-dimensional, and so making clear expressions of disgust or more than very tentative judgments based only on clothing choice seems wrong to me, and I think most people would find it hurtful.
 
I had a job interview for a state job last week. And I had a nice looking suit jacket, matching skirt, and nice top underneath. When I sat down to wait, I started talking to the person next to me. She was interviewing for the same position, and was wearing jeans and a t-shirt. :eek: She was said “if they don’t hire me, then they don’t want the real me”. She didn’t get the job obviously, while I got to the next round. Dressing up showed I cared about the job. And if you don’t care in the beginning, how much will you care later on?
 
No, the point is that we’re holding women up to a certain fashion standard, and I don’t see men being held up to the same fashion standard. E.g. there is no comparative thread regarding men’s attire. You yourself inadvertedly admitted the lack of parity by suggesting I start such a thread.

Whether or not you can’t see your insults, they’re there. You probably didn’t mean it, which I understand. There is nothing WRONG with being female (never said there was!!) but you mentioned it as if it was a derogatory thing, as well as throwing out that flippant “liberated feminist” comment, which is precisely why I asked about it.
 
Actually, suits are often more comfortable than casual clothes.
In some climates, some seasons and some parallel universes. Besides which, if they were more comfortable we’d probably all wear them even round the house, no?
 
In some climates, some seasons and some parallel universes. Besides which, if they were more comfortable we’d probably all wear them even round the house, no?
No. There’s the question of how formal things are. When people dress up or down, that’s what matters. You don’t remove or readd comfort basing on how much you respect someone or not - you do it via picking clothes which are more formal or less. By the way, not long ago people would actually wear a suit around the house and if not, then say, then trousers from a suit and a sweater or blazer instead of the jacket.
I challenge you to find me a single dress shirt that is more comfortable than a cotton T shirt.
A relatively well-cut suit with a cotton button-down shirt should be more or less the same as, say, jeans and tee and a hoodie, once you’ve got used to it. It’s the feeling of formality, together with increased fear of getting your outfit stained, which may create an awkward feeling. If you get the right collar size (the belief that if it doesn’t suffocate you it isn’t elegant enough is mistaken :p), a tie isn’t really so constricting, either.

Something I noticed a couple of years ago when my university insisted on renovating the rear staircase on the campus hill and not providing an alternative way, it’s easier to climb in a suit than in jeans and the rest. 😛
 
No, the point is that we’re holding women up to a certain fashion standard, and I don’t see men being held up to the same fashion standard. E.g. there is no comparative thread regarding men’s attire. You yourself inadvertedly admitted the lack of parity by suggesting I start such a thread.

Whether or not you can’t see your insults, they’re there. You probably didn’t mean it, which I understand. There is nothing WRONG with being female (never said there was!!) but you mentioned it as if it was a derogatory thing, as well as throwing out that flippant “liberated feminist” comment, which is precisely why I asked about it.
Your notion of equality goes too far and it verges on being mechanical. If we were the government, we would need to start threads covering all interested groups. However, we are just a bunch of falks that talk about stuff as it comes up, so it’s quite strange to expect mirror matching in threads about this or that, between the sexes.

There was no insult anywhere in anything I said, intended or not. You’re reading into my posts to find insults and I suggest that you relax a bit, take a cup of tea, watch your favourite show, read a book, grab a cat or whatever gives you the very important everyday joy of living and stop looking around for dangers or attacks or insults.

Oh, and you can be sure I hold men to the same standard - it’s just that I’m not of the right sex to be interested in them. By the way, the dress code in business communities actually seems to be less restrictive for women than it is for men, allowing more informal clothes more easily. It’s much easier for women to get away with denim or such, or lack of a jacket, let alone anything of the tie sort. Think of it when it’s 100 degrees. 😉

For the record, I never mentioned “female” as a derogatory thing and in fact, if you really read my posts for what actually was there, you would find what I actually said, which was the opposite. As for my flippant comment, I’m rather proud of it and I definitely don’t take it back (it’s kinda like, “I hate you!” “I love you too, ma’am”). Reminds me of what happened when a conservative lawyer I know bought a flower for his feminist boss’s birthday…
 
I had a job interview for a state job last week. And I had a nice looking suit jacket, matching skirt, and nice top underneath. When I sat down to wait, I started talking to the person next to me. She was interviewing for the same position, and was wearing jeans and a t-shirt. :eek: She was said “if they don’t hire me, then they don’t want the real me”. She didn’t get the job obviously, while I got to the next round. Dressing up showed I cared about the job. And if you don’t care in the beginning, how much will you care later on?
Although if you were looking for a job as a welder, she might have had an edge on you!
 
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