Skull and Cross-bones on Crucifix?

[patrick457]

Patrick, come on now. YOU are the one who posted this quote from Origen. So, I am just trying to find the source. I have been searching through the Church Fathers websites and have not been able to find these words. I really need this for another thread. Now I am starting to think you just made this up.
Thanks,
Gene

Well, I wish I did!! That would have made for a really wild April Fool’s joke.

Now, to be more serious. What website are you searching this on? Based on experience, there’s still a lot of Patristic works that aren’t on the internet or even translated into English - I tried checking the work on Newadvent and the CCEL, but to no avail.

Because I’m apparently making this up, I’ve also invented (meaning no. 3) the Greek and Latin version, and sure enough, it’s in Patrologia Graeca volume 13, column 1777:

Locus autem Calvariae dicitur non qualemcunque dispensationem habere, ut illic qui pro hominibus moriturus fuerat, moreretur. Venit enim ad me traditio quaedam talis (89), quod corpus Adae primi hominis ibi sepultum est ubi crucifixus est Christus, ut sicut in Adam omnes moriuntur, sic in Christo omnes vivificentur: ut in loco illo qui dicitur Calvariae locus, id est locus capitis, caput humani generis resurrectionem Domini Salvatoris, qui ibi passus est, et resurrexit. Inconveniens enim erat ut cum multi ex eo nati remissionem acciperent peccatorum, et beneficium resurrectionis consequerentur, non magis ipse Pater omnium hominum hujusmodi gratiam consequeretur.

(89) Venit ad me traditio quaedam talis, etc. In Caten. ms. Graeca verba haec exstant: Περί τοῦ Κρανίου τόπου ἦλθεν εἰς ἡμᾶς ὅτι Ἑβραῖοι παραδιδόασιν, ὅτι τὸ σῶμα τοῦ Ἀδὰμ ἐκεῖ τετάφθαι ἵν’ ἐπεὶ ἐν τῷ Ἀδὰμ πάντες ἀποθνῄσκουσι, πάλιν ἐν τῷ Χριστῷ πάντες ζῳοποιηθῶσι. De Calvariae loco pervenit ad nos traditio Hebraeorum, corpus Adam esse ibi sepultum, ut sicut in Adam omnes moriuntur, rursus in Christo omnes vivificentur.

Still don’t believe me?

http://books.google.com/books?id=Cs...RFDGdkaWReUBVoSfW2bQ&ci=70,797,838,704&edge=0

Another version ["]here]("http://www.dcoi.org/1004/1001/0185-...orum_series_in_evangelium_Matthaei,_MGR.html#[00218), the Commentariorum series in evangelium Matthaei (00218):

[265] περὶ τοῦ κρανίου τόπου ἦλθεν εἰς ἐμέ, ὅτι Ἑβραῖοι παραδιδόασι τὸ σῶμα τοῦ Ἀδὰμ ἐκεῖ τετάφθαι, ἵν’ ἐπεὶ ἐν τῷ Ἀδὰμ πάντες ἀποθνῄσκομεν, ἀναστῇ μὲν ὁ Ἀδάμ, ἐν Χριστῷ δὲ πάντες ζῳοποιηθῶμεν.

 

[climer97007]

Well, I wish I did!! That would have made for a really wild April Fool’s joke.

Now, to be more serious. What website are you searching this on? Based on experience, there’s still a lot of Patristic works that aren’t on the internet or even translated into English - I tried checking the work on Newadvent and the CCEL, but to no avail. Still don’t believe me?

http://books.google.com/books?id=Cs...RFDGdkaWReUBVoSfW2bQ&ci=70,797,838,704&edge=0

Well, that is all Greek to me… Literally…
I tried both New Advent and CCEL. I know it is not there.
The question remains, where did YOU find it when you posted it to this same thread?
Here is a link to your post.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6121734&postcount=13
You posted the Origen quote on Post #13 of this thread.
Hello, Patrick? :slapfight: Anybody home? :banghead: Help!
Thanks,
Gene :tiphat:

 

[patrick457]

Well, that is all Greek to me… Literally…
I tried both New Advent and CCEL. I know it is not there.
The question remains, where did YOU find it when you posted it to this same thread?
Here is a link to your post.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6121734&postcount=13
You posted the Origen quote on Post #13 of this thread.
Hello, Patrick? :slapfight: Anybody home? :banghead: Help!
Thanks,
Gene :tiphat:

Hey! I’m here. Don’t resort to slapfights just yet.
Okay, so you’re looking for the English quote. Sorry about that.

Well, I found that particular translation of the quote cited in Christians and the holy places: the myth of Jewish-Christian origins by Joan Taylor; which incidentally, was the main source for that post. I’ve also seen it quoted partially in the Old International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (1915) article on Golgotha:

(3) That the name is due to an ancient pre-Christian tradition that the skull of Adam was found there. The first mention of this is by Origen (185-253 AD), who himself lived in Jerusalem 20 years. He writes: “I have received a tradition to the effect that the body of Adam, the first man, was buried upon the spot where Christ was crucified,” etc. This tradition was afterward referred to by Athanasius, Epiphanius, Basil of Caesarea, Chrysostom and other later writers. The tomb and skull of Adam, still pointed out in an excavated chamber below the traditional Calvary, marks the survival of this tradition on the spot. This is by far the most ancient explanation of the name Golgotha and, in spite of the absurdity of the original tradition about Adam, is probably the true one.

If you’re looking for an English version of Origen’s Commentary on Matthew which contains the quote - then I’m sorry to inform that your search did prove correct in this matter: there is as of now, no full translation of such available on the 'net yet.

 

[climer97007]

Thanks Patrick!
Gene

 

[sseason]

The way I heard this is different.

Biblically, when David slays Goliath, he decapitates the body and carries the head back to Jerusalem and buries it someplace. The idea is, that THAT is to be a reminder to the enemies of Israel of the power of God.

So…by invoking scripture rather than tradition, you can be assured to that extent that there is some old skull buried around there someplace.

Now, put Jesus on that same spot and you have a deep theological meaning that Jesus is the new reminder to the enemies of God’s people of the power of God. Jesus, has, as it were, defeated Satan.

Take the word Goliath which has the root “Gol” and take the hill of crucifixion which has the name Golgotha and the root “Gol” and you may see the connection of events in the Bible.

This is my “level” of understanding of the matter. There may be a better and stronger “level” to stand on. I’m all ears, but this explanation (which I picked up in some Protestant author’s article) seems pretty interesting.

There is simply no Biblical hint about the bones of Adam, that I am aware of. Speaking of tradition, some might say that this hill is where or near where the garden of Eden was. That’s interesting, but I don’t see the support for it in scripture.

As it says in Scripture, not everything is recorded in Scripture.

 

[sseason]

For anyone interested…I HIGHLY recommend reading the writings of the visions of Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich. She speaks of this subject of Adams bones. I can’t even put into words how much reading her writings have increased the depth of my spiritual life. My reflections on the scenes that are painted in my mind sit with me for days.
And she is Blessed and all her writings have the Nihil Obstat and the Imprimatur

PEACE to all!!!

 

[bradleyh]

This is in response to jspencer and to anyone that wants to know about this:

I have the very same or similar crucifix that have the skull and crossbones. It was given to me by my great-aunt along with a Rosary, that belonged to her dad, as a Christmas present in 1994. It’s the crucifix with the skull and crossbones that I would like to talk about. There’s the halo just at the intersecting points of the cross. That represents the Divinity of Christ. The skull and crossbones represents death to the worldly attractions. It also represents victory over death. It can also be interpreted as Fallen Man being restored to Grace by the Sacred Blood of Christ. On the backside of the crucifix is a pierced Heart surrounded by the Crown of Thorns. From what I had read on the website of the Sisters of Carmel in Colorado it means the giving of oneself to others in showing charity. It’s a very beautiful crucifix. How my great-aunt got it or who gave it to her I’ll never know because she died nearly 2 years after she gave it to me. My only regret is that I didn’t ask her about the history of it. I did see the website of the Sisters of Carmel and purchased a similiar crucifix with the same emblems on it. It’s 2 1/2 inches long and small enough for a rosary. I do hope that this information helps you. I’m glad that I’m able to help you to understand the meaning of this type of crucifix.

Bradley Hennigh

 

[dicummings]

Greetings from Di Cummings of Melbourne Australia.

Understanding that I am not a Catholic, but I have a great curiosity regarding this topic

perhaps you might be interested to see what I have and what I have learnt.

tinyurl.com/ABCM-ReligiousItems

Please feel free to contact me, especially if you can add some digital images to my collection, and gently explain if some of my information is incorrect.

Sincerely, Di Cummings