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Hiskid1973
Guest
OK you two…shake hands and lets get back to the topic. I find it best to just focus my comments in regards to the opening poster…Grace and peace to you, beloved by our Lord.
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someguy14
Guest
…and another thing, shaking hands. Is that sanitary
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guanophore
Guest
Wait…I got some waterless hand wash in the glove box……and another thing, shaking hands. Is that sanitary
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rom422
Guest
Dear Ginger2,
I am new in this forum, and may be late in this thread. But you are the OP (original poster), so I decided to address this message to you, though all are welcome to make their comment if they wish.
I think that the “slain in the spirit” experience is real - that means, it is really happening. What I am not sure of is who the Spirit is that is the author of the experience. Is it the Holy Spirit as is commonly supposed, or is it some unholy spirit?
There are many examples of “slain in the spirit” experiences that I have seen in Youtube.com. I can give links if you request. Some of these videos come with the title “drunk in the spirit”. And others come under the title “holy laughter”, where those who have been slain roll down on the floor and go to fits of uncontrolled laughter.
While there might be genuine instances of “being slain” caused by the Holy Spirit- as in the case of St. Teresa of Avila - I can’t say that with confidence about those that I have seen in Youtube. In one video I saw a naked man flying or swimming on his bed, and making annoying utterances. I seriously doubt this was the work of the Holy Spirit because all that rolling around and groaning on the bed simply had no relevance to God’s Kingdom, and served only to make Christianity look bad. In another video I saw young women lying on the floor and convulsing so uncontrollably that their underwears show. And then two of them even started to fight! So, is this really the work of the Holy Spirit?
This phenomenon has no parallel in Holy Scripture, either in the Old Testament or the New Testament. There was only one instance I found (in Acts 2:13), where the apostles, after receiving the Holy Spirit, were mocked by some spectators as “full of wine” (in other words, drunk). But that was because they were speaking the wonderful works of God in a foreign language that the spectators could not understand. Nowhere did the Bible say that the Apostles were found rolling on the floor, convulsing or laughing with uncontrolled laughter.
The Bible also speaks of other people being filled by the Holy Spirit, but none of these people fell on the ground (backward or forward does not matter). For example, Elizabeth, when she heard Mary’s voice, was filled by the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:41). But did she fall down and lose her mind? No. Instead she praised Mary and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!” Our Lord Jesus also, when He was baptized at the river Jordan, was filled by the Holy Spirit (Mark 1:9-13; Luke 4:1-2). But did He act weird or wild afterwards? No, He was actually quite sober. He prayed and fasted in the wilderness, and resisted the temptations of the Devil. So, it really makes me wonder where people get this idea that when the Holy Spirit comes to visit your soul, then you will collapse and He will manifest His presence by some bizarre behavior.
Just my contribution to this thread.
I am new in this forum, and may be late in this thread. But you are the OP (original poster), so I decided to address this message to you, though all are welcome to make their comment if they wish.
I think that the “slain in the spirit” experience is real - that means, it is really happening. What I am not sure of is who the Spirit is that is the author of the experience. Is it the Holy Spirit as is commonly supposed, or is it some unholy spirit?
There are many examples of “slain in the spirit” experiences that I have seen in Youtube.com. I can give links if you request. Some of these videos come with the title “drunk in the spirit”. And others come under the title “holy laughter”, where those who have been slain roll down on the floor and go to fits of uncontrolled laughter.
While there might be genuine instances of “being slain” caused by the Holy Spirit- as in the case of St. Teresa of Avila - I can’t say that with confidence about those that I have seen in Youtube. In one video I saw a naked man flying or swimming on his bed, and making annoying utterances. I seriously doubt this was the work of the Holy Spirit because all that rolling around and groaning on the bed simply had no relevance to God’s Kingdom, and served only to make Christianity look bad. In another video I saw young women lying on the floor and convulsing so uncontrollably that their underwears show. And then two of them even started to fight! So, is this really the work of the Holy Spirit?
This phenomenon has no parallel in Holy Scripture, either in the Old Testament or the New Testament. There was only one instance I found (in Acts 2:13), where the apostles, after receiving the Holy Spirit, were mocked by some spectators as “full of wine” (in other words, drunk). But that was because they were speaking the wonderful works of God in a foreign language that the spectators could not understand. Nowhere did the Bible say that the Apostles were found rolling on the floor, convulsing or laughing with uncontrolled laughter.
The Bible also speaks of other people being filled by the Holy Spirit, but none of these people fell on the ground (backward or forward does not matter). For example, Elizabeth, when she heard Mary’s voice, was filled by the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:41). But did she fall down and lose her mind? No. Instead she praised Mary and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!” Our Lord Jesus also, when He was baptized at the river Jordan, was filled by the Holy Spirit (Mark 1:9-13; Luke 4:1-2). But did He act weird or wild afterwards? No, He was actually quite sober. He prayed and fasted in the wilderness, and resisted the temptations of the Devil. So, it really makes me wonder where people get this idea that when the Holy Spirit comes to visit your soul, then you will collapse and He will manifest His presence by some bizarre behavior.
Just my contribution to this thread.
M
MorningSong51
Guest
Today 8:33 pm
guanophore
Re: Slain in the Spirit
Do you honestly dont’ know if you agree with the statements in the OP, or not?
I am not assuming anything about you, Morning. I am commenting on what I have observed. I see that very little of what you have posted is related to the topic thread.
Sola Scriptura is an illogical position, and therefore, makes for a stimulating dialogue.
That will make two people (you and I) who will continue to pray and to hope for the better.
er, um, gee…LOL…Sarcasm is at an all time high ladies and gentlemen. Funny that this is only found here and out of your mouths.
guanophore
Re: Slain in the Spirit
Is there someone that knows your opinion better than you?
Do you honestly dont’ know if you agree with the statements in the OP, or not?
I am not assuming anything about you, Morning. I am commenting on what I have observed. I see that very little of what you have posted is related to the topic thread.
If I could not relate to people that believed differently than I, I would not last long on CAF. I enjoy having dialogue with people with varying points of view.
Sola Scriptura is an illogical position, and therefore, makes for a stimulating dialogue.
That will make two people (you and I) who will continue to pray and to hope for the better.er, um, gee…LOL…Sarcasm is at an all time high ladies and gentlemen. Funny that this is only found here and out of your mouths.
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ltwin
Guest
Well, I suppose you would come to that conclusion by taking the most outrageous examples as your definition of what this phenomenon is. I for the life of me cannot understand what a naked man on a bed making strange sounds has to do with being slain in the Spirit. Also, I thought Youtube did not permit videos with nudity from being shown on their site.
However, as someone who has experienced what you describe as “convulsions” on the floor, I will attempt to answer your post to the best of my ability. There are only three possible origins of the phenomenon called slain or resting in the Spirit:
- The divine Spirit,
- A diabolical spirit,
3 The human spirit.
However, there are people who are spiritually troubled who are prayed for and when this happens, demonic spirits can manifest themselves. What many people don’t realize is that a person who is slain in the Spirit could fall because they have surrendered to God’s will and his rest. However, a person could also fall and manifest physical reactions that look like struggle because they are actually struggling with God.
I will give myself as an example. I was prayed for by a visiting pastor one time who prayed over me and spoke words of knowledge and wisdom over my life, but he also prayed for me and I fell out in the Spirit. I convulsed and it was an intense physical experience. During that time this pastor told my parents that I had a calling on my life but there was a spirit that was trying to destroy that calling and my relationship with Christ. What no one knew at the time was that I was battling severe besetting sin that was destroying my spiritual life and affecting other areas of my life as well.
The good news is that this pastor told me that though the enemy would try to destroy me, God would not fail me. He left me with 1 Timothy 5:22, “Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, nor take part in the sins of others; keep yourself pure.” He told me to obey it and meditate on it, stressing that I should keep myself pure.
I say that to show that being slain in the Spirit is not an end in and of itself. It is a work of the Holy Spirit. People may fall out and do some weird or strange things. It doesn’t mean (though it certainly can mean) they are under demonic influence. Precisely the opposite, they may be under the liberating power of the Holy Spirit.
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rom422
Guest
Thank you, Itwin.
The examples I mentioned may be extreme, but they are not the only ones. There are so many of them in Youtube, which is why you can’t blame people if that is the understanding they get about the phenomenon of being slain in the spirit. Anyway, I think that we must be careful in attributing such weird behavior to the Holy Spirit, because it can amount to blasphemy. The disorderly conduct really makes Christianity look bad. Just look at the comments made by the viewers in Youtube. Were most of the viewers edified by the phenomenon? No. They were mostly repelled, and some even cursed religion as the cause of such wild behavior.
Besides, I do not deny that there could be genuine cases of being slain by the Holy Spirit. Your case may be genuine, and you be the judge. But I highly doubt that such is the case in most cases, especially when it is happening to a bunch of people resulting in chaos. Why would the Holy Spirit cause chaos and disorderly behavior in the church, can you explain that?
Because of the wild behavior exhibited in this phenomenon, it is also sometimes referred to as being drunk in the spirit. But I suspect it is the unholy spirit rather than the Holy Spirit that makes people behave like drunk. Because the Holy Spirit will not contradict Himself. Drunkenness is condemned by the Bible, not because it results from taking too much wine, but because of the disorderly conduct that follows. Why then would the Holy Spirit cause and manifest Himself in such disorderly behavior when the same was condemned by Holy Scripture of which He is the author?
Sometimes, this phenomenon results in uncontrolled laughter. I know that joy of the Lord and laughter are endorsed by the Bible. But rolling on the floor and UNCONTROLLED LAUGHTER? - That is not in the Bible! Now, we know that Holy Spirit has always been in the Church, especially after the Ascension. If the practice of convulsing and uncontrolled laughter are so beneficial to the soul, and is the work of the Holy Spirit, why don’t we find many examples of this in Holy Scripture? Why was it not a common practice even by the early Christians? The one instance of wild behavior in the church that I know of was in the Church of Corinth, and it was condemned by St. Paul!
The examples I mentioned may be extreme, but they are not the only ones. There are so many of them in Youtube, which is why you can’t blame people if that is the understanding they get about the phenomenon of being slain in the spirit. Anyway, I think that we must be careful in attributing such weird behavior to the Holy Spirit, because it can amount to blasphemy. The disorderly conduct really makes Christianity look bad. Just look at the comments made by the viewers in Youtube. Were most of the viewers edified by the phenomenon? No. They were mostly repelled, and some even cursed religion as the cause of such wild behavior.
Besides, I do not deny that there could be genuine cases of being slain by the Holy Spirit. Your case may be genuine, and you be the judge. But I highly doubt that such is the case in most cases, especially when it is happening to a bunch of people resulting in chaos. Why would the Holy Spirit cause chaos and disorderly behavior in the church, can you explain that?
Because of the wild behavior exhibited in this phenomenon, it is also sometimes referred to as being drunk in the spirit. But I suspect it is the unholy spirit rather than the Holy Spirit that makes people behave like drunk. Because the Holy Spirit will not contradict Himself. Drunkenness is condemned by the Bible, not because it results from taking too much wine, but because of the disorderly conduct that follows. Why then would the Holy Spirit cause and manifest Himself in such disorderly behavior when the same was condemned by Holy Scripture of which He is the author?
Sometimes, this phenomenon results in uncontrolled laughter. I know that joy of the Lord and laughter are endorsed by the Bible. But rolling on the floor and UNCONTROLLED LAUGHTER? - That is not in the Bible! Now, we know that Holy Spirit has always been in the Church, especially after the Ascension. If the practice of convulsing and uncontrolled laughter are so beneficial to the soul, and is the work of the Holy Spirit, why don’t we find many examples of this in Holy Scripture? Why was it not a common practice even by the early Christians? The one instance of wild behavior in the church that I know of was in the Church of Corinth, and it was condemned by St. Paul!
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guanophore
Guest
Yes, they are extreme counterfiets, and yes, it is no wonder that people are skeptical about the phenomenon.
Yes, this is quite true. The HS does not engender any of these abuses. He always does things decently and in order. That being said, the human body and soul are a battleground, and when that which is evil encounters what is good, ugly results can be seen. Some people who come for healing really do convulse, shout, writhe, and all those other manifestations seen in the scriptures. These are not caused by the HS, but occur when evil comes into the presence of the Holy.
And we know the source of this, do we not? Who delights over the accusations against the brethren, and who is it who attacks the offspring who follow the Son? Of course the evil one wants to cause counterfiets and drama, so as to turn people away from the Truth.
Yes. Disorder is a clear sign of abuse, or demonic activity.
No well catechized charismatic christian would ever make any such claim.
This statement also borders on blasphemy against the HS, because this is what was said of the Apostles on Pentecost, yet we know for a fact that they were not under the influence of any unholy spirit.
Do you think the Apostles were acting in a disorderly manner?
It is important to distinguish here the sources of the activity. Scripture is clear that the gifts given to the Corinthian church were valid and holy. HOwever, they were misusing th egifts, which resulted in disorder, chaos, and a bad witness.
There are also counterfeits that can also produce disorder, and unholy sources of this activity. Discernment is needed to determine what is of God, what is of the human frailty, and what is demonic.
What comes from God is always under the control of the person receiving it. Sometimes a spiritual encounter causes an emotional catharsis. Catharsis is natural release of pent up emotions. Sometimes it can be part of God’s healing, but the HS does not cause any uncontrollability.
Yes, wild and uncontrolled behavior is always condemned. And it is the propensity of encounters with the HS that can flood a person with emotion that has given rise to the avoidance of these opportunities.
In our day, the need for healing of the emotions is more acutely conscious and people are aware of, and seeking wholeness in their emotional being. Not knowing how to attain this, sometimes they fall into abuses of these kind.
F
fhansen
Guest
One thing that seems odd to me about these experiences is that in so many churches where people have them they’re *pursuing *a specific kind of “gift”-and receiving it-assembly line style. While we must pursue God, and be open to wherever and however He leads, the HS just doesn’t operate this way, in my experience, so predictably, so made-to-order, at some pastors’ beck and call. He works just the opposite of that, in fact.
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guanophore
Guest
Can you say some more about this? What kind of “gift” do you think is being sought?
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fhansen
Guest
Well, a gift of the HS, thought in this case to be “slaying in the Spirit”.
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guanophore
Guest
Ok, that is what I thought you might be saying. This is inaccurate. People are seeking healing, and to be touched personally by God. They may or may not experience a falling phenomenon. You can see in this video that not everyone does fall, but all who come forward are prayed for.
The priest does not touch them, or only very lightly. There is no pushing. The persons assisting do not touch them either. If they happen to fall, they do, but no one is seeking to fall, just to be healed.
In the days of the Aposltes, people lined the streets and filled the buildings, seeking healing. God’s power is still as present today to heal as it was then. His healing power will be present in the world until He comes again.
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rom422
Guest
Dear guanophore,
You said: “Yes, they are extreme counterfeits, …” By counterfeits you mean “not from the Holy Spirit”? So, you admit that some of these - actually many of these - purported slain in the spirit phenomena, are not really from the Holy Spirit?
You said: “The HS does not engender any of these abuses. He always does things decently and in order.” Agreed.
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guanophore
Guest
I have not conducted a statistical analysis, but what was stated up the thread is certainly true. There are three sources for such phenomena. One is a divine intervention, another is a human one (willfuly fakery) and the last is the devil. Even the second one can be used by the Evil One to get a foothold.
We know them by their fruits.
Gal 5:21-24
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Any time a person loses control of themselves, we know it is not coming from God.
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rom422
Guest
Dear guanophore,
I wasn’t quite finished yet, but I messed up my computer. Sorry. But here I go again.
You asked, “Do you think the Apostles were acting in a disorderly manner?” Honestly, no. The Bible said that the Apostles were being mocked as drunk. This does not mean that the Apostles were behaving like drunk. It is the nature of mockery to exaggerate things. I think the Apostles were behaving orderly and speaking decently, but in a different language, which was why they were mocked. If you read the Scriptures carefully, you will notice that the Scriptures said that the apostles were speaking “the wonderful works of God” (Acts 2:11). If they were acting like drunks, speaking indecently or exhibiting disorderly behavior, then how can they be talking about the wonderful things of God?
If I say that the disorderly conduct of many of those who are purported to be slain in the spirit, make me suspect the demonic origin of the behavior, then how can that be a blasphemy? God is the souce of order, not disorder, isn’t it? There was no evidence from Scriptures that the Apostles collapsed on the floor and manifested disorderly behavior, right? Many people who were healed by our Lord did not exhibit disorderly behavior either, right? They were happy and glorified the Lord, yes, but that does not mean they rolled on the floor laughing. The same is true of the woman who was to be stoned for adultery. Our Lord forgave her and healed her spiritually. But she did not convulse in the process, did she?
In the Bible those who showed strange behavior were mostly those who were already possessed by the devil. Apparently, the devil/devils panicked in the presence of Divine Power - so they made their subjects to act weird. But we are not here talking of diabolically possessed people being exorcised. We are talking of normal sinners who were purported to be slain in the spirit as they are spiritually healed. Yes, there can be an internal struggle in the soul of a sinner who is being touched by grace. Possibly, and in some cases, there can be unusual physical behavior manifested. But I think this is rare. I don’t think that it is the normal procedure of the Holy Spirit to heal a person with uncontrolled physical manifestations or violence such as you commonly see in the Youtube videos.
The bottom line is, I think that we both agree that the Holy Spirit does not cause disorder. So, if there is chaos and disorder in a certain event, let us be careful and not assume that it is from the Holy Spirit based solely on the supernatural character of the event. Yes, we do need discernment - a lot of it.
God bless!
I wasn’t quite finished yet, but I messed up my computer. Sorry. But here I go again.
You asked, “Do you think the Apostles were acting in a disorderly manner?” Honestly, no. The Bible said that the Apostles were being mocked as drunk. This does not mean that the Apostles were behaving like drunk. It is the nature of mockery to exaggerate things. I think the Apostles were behaving orderly and speaking decently, but in a different language, which was why they were mocked. If you read the Scriptures carefully, you will notice that the Scriptures said that the apostles were speaking “the wonderful works of God” (Acts 2:11). If they were acting like drunks, speaking indecently or exhibiting disorderly behavior, then how can they be talking about the wonderful things of God?
If I say that the disorderly conduct of many of those who are purported to be slain in the spirit, make me suspect the demonic origin of the behavior, then how can that be a blasphemy? God is the souce of order, not disorder, isn’t it? There was no evidence from Scriptures that the Apostles collapsed on the floor and manifested disorderly behavior, right? Many people who were healed by our Lord did not exhibit disorderly behavior either, right? They were happy and glorified the Lord, yes, but that does not mean they rolled on the floor laughing. The same is true of the woman who was to be stoned for adultery. Our Lord forgave her and healed her spiritually. But she did not convulse in the process, did she?
In the Bible those who showed strange behavior were mostly those who were already possessed by the devil. Apparently, the devil/devils panicked in the presence of Divine Power - so they made their subjects to act weird. But we are not here talking of diabolically possessed people being exorcised. We are talking of normal sinners who were purported to be slain in the spirit as they are spiritually healed. Yes, there can be an internal struggle in the soul of a sinner who is being touched by grace. Possibly, and in some cases, there can be unusual physical behavior manifested. But I think this is rare. I don’t think that it is the normal procedure of the Holy Spirit to heal a person with uncontrolled physical manifestations or violence such as you commonly see in the Youtube videos.
The bottom line is, I think that we both agree that the Holy Spirit does not cause disorder. So, if there is chaos and disorder in a certain event, let us be careful and not assume that it is from the Holy Spirit based solely on the supernatural character of the event. Yes, we do need discernment - a lot of it.
God bless!
F
fhansen
Guest
Yes, I was speaking of my experiences in Pentecostal Churches-I’ve been to Catholic Charismatic meetings where no such “slaying” occurred at all.
F
fhansen
Guest
Alright, I watched the video-same exact stuff that happens at Pentecostal churches-people falling predictably backwards-don’t know what in the world would happen to them if not for the catchers. Other than the falling, they don’t seem to be particularly impressed by the whole thing-considering that God, the HS, had supposedly just touched them in what can only be presumed to be a direct and incredibly awesome way.
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ltwin
Guest
Fhansen brings up a common misperception of this phenomenon, and it has been addressed earlier on this thread and once again by guanophore. It is important to know that this is not a gift (as in an endowment or enablement of the Holy Spirit) so much as it is a blessing or ministry from God.
No Pentecostal or charismatic will, if you ask them, tell you that the reason they seek prayer is so they can fall out. Falling out is a byproduct of the prayer, never an end to itself. Not everyone is expected to fall out either, and if you are in a church which expects everyone to fall out every time when they are prayed for and hands are laid on them, then I, as a lifelong Pentecostal, would encourage you to find another church.
One thing I was taught growing up is that the Holy Spirit is not to be mocked or faked. I was also taught that the Holy Spirit did not need my help to do what he wanted to do. There would never be a reason that I had to help God out by pretending to fall under his influence or spend an entire church service laughing.
It might not be apparent to people watching TBN or youtube videos, but there is a rough protocol among Pentecostals and a general consensus about Scriptural parameters. Abuses do occur and when they do they are just as unsettling among many Pentecostals as they are to other Christians.
Pentecostal preachers will condemn “spiritual drunkeness” as quick as any other type of preacher, for example this article from Lee Grady, a Pentecostal and editor for Charisma Magazine in which he says, “Let’s put the childish things behind us. It’s time for us to grow up and sober up.” Another example is David Wilkerson, a well respected Pentecostal preacher, who, preached a sermon condemning Word of Faith and prosperity gospel teachers and misrepresentations of the Holy Spirit’s manifestations. He said, “I weep when I see these videos that are sent to me from all over the country. Whole groups of bodies jerking out of control, falling on the floor, laughing hysterically, staggering around like drunkards . . . Anything that cannot be found in Scripture has to be rejected outright—totally rejected.”
J
Julia_Mae
Guest
It did in my Parish. It did to me and a lot of other regular parishioners. But not to everyone.
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fhansen
Guest
I understand that it’s not technically a gift of the Spirit but we have to understand that, if this is from God, then it’s still a gift-something done to us- an amazing, way out of the ordinary, life-changing experience where one must know-intuitively-that the power and presence of God has just swept them off their feet. I’m not sure how they could even get right back up the way they did.
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