Slave to the Law

[Reuben_J]

I would suggest that the blood of the atonement frees us from the bondage and futility of trying to be saved by the law, but not from our obligation to obey it.
The rich young ruler claimed to have obeyed all the commandments that Jesus quoted, and I am sure he was right. But Jesus had omitted the 10th, until the young man , his conscience pricking him, asked “what else is there?” Jesus then quoted the one commandment he had omitted earlier, the one that deals with covetousness. The young man immediately recognised his fault and sin, but loved his processions too much to repent, and went away turning his back on the only way to eternal security. Jesus would have then and there forgiven him his covetous nature, offered him a change of heart (which Jesus offers all of us) and the young man would have been saved through faith in Jesus , the grace imparted to him, and the righteousness that would have been given as a free gift that he may live the rest of his life a commandment keeping generous disciple of Christ. A sad tale.
I have written more fully on the subject of faith, grace and the law here.

Hi. Welcome to the Forum. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

You have given this understanding from a different angle not mentioned by the other two posters.

Perhaps you need to elaborate more about the blood of atonement freeing us from the bondage of the law. While I agree that it saves us by its redemptive power, because Christ died for our sin, how does it become a grace to help us against committing sin? What does it actually do?

As for the rich young man, it is interesting that you mention him being covetous thus guilty of the 10th Commandment. This is certainly not stated in that passage though I can understand why you want to go into this direction. I would see him more of not really believing in Jesus – he did not see the necessity to follow him.

I feel fhansen’s argument about following the law from our heart is more decisive in explaining the insufficiency of the young man. He followed the laws because he had to, because it is required of him and not because he understood the spirit of the law. In other word he did not have any real love for the law but merely wanting to comply with its requirement.

God bless.

 

[brakelite]

Hi. Welcome to the Forum. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

Thanks, and you’re welcome.

You have given this understanding from a different angle not mentioned by the other two posters.

Perhaps you need to elaborate more about the blood of atonement freeing us from the bondage of the law. While I agree that it saves us by its redemptive power, because Christ died for our sin, how does it become a grace to help us against committing sin? What does it actually do?

I have answered this from one perspective on another thread concerning Galatians 3, but will do so here also. Baptism as revealed to us in Romans, is an act whereby we demonstrate our faith in the atonement. As Jesus died and was buried, by partaking in baptism, we show our faith and we also die and are buried with Him. As Jesus was raised from the dead, so also are we brought up out of the water to walk “in newness of life”. This is all an act of faith and trust in God’s promises, and through that faith we receive that power to walk in obedience to the commandments. Basically, that is what the gospel is all about. Bottom line,we die in Christ, and are raised with Him to eternal life. Romans 6,7 and 8 are a rich read and source of huge encouragement and affirmation as to how we stand in relation to God.

As for the rich young man, it is interesting that you mention him being covetous thus guilty of the 10th Commandment. This is certainly not stated in that passage though I can understand why you want to go into this direction. I would see him more of not really believing in Jesus – he did not see the necessity to follow him.

In each of the gospel accounts, this incident took place immediately after Jesus had blessed the little children. This young man was a ruler (Luke 18:18), and likely there as part of the usual retinue of Pharisees and temple officials. After observing the way Jesus treated the children and loved them, this must have struck a chord in his heart, recognising how different Jesus was and how vastly better was His ways then what the young man had been brought up with and had observed in among his colleagues, after all, even the disciples at first were reluctant to allow the children near Him, (Mark 10:14) probably thinking that Jesus, like every other religious leader, didn’t have the time to spend talking with children. So this young ruler saw in Jesus a quality to be desired. Yet in himself , being a ruler and wealthy, likely had a high estimate of his own worth, yet knew something was lacking.
So Jesus tested his sincerity, to draw from the young man what he truly meant when he claimed the Lord to be ‘good’.
Jesus then went on saying, “thou knowest the commandments…” and quoted 5 of the 6 commandments that relate to our dealings with one another. These the young ruler said, he had kept. I wonder if he realised that Jesus had ommited the 10th? Love for others, which the young man would have recognised in Jesus, was essential if one desired to know God and attain to life, and the 10th commandment, the one that relates to covetousness, revealed the lack of love in his soul, and that ‘self’ and the desire for worldly greatness outweighed his desire for heavenly treasure. Who says that salvation is free? Freely given certainly, but it cost Jesus His life, and we must sacrifice self and this world also if we should see life.

I feel fhansen’s argument about following the law from our heart is more decisive in explaining the insufficiency of the young man. He followed the laws because he had to, because it is required of him and not because he understood the spirit of the law. In other word he did not have any real love for the law but merely wanting to comply with its requirement.

With this I think I can also agree. I do wonder however that sometimes we do get things as little mixed up at times when talking about the ‘spirit of the law’ and the ‘letter of the law’. Many advocate that NT Christians are not to keep the letter of the law any longer, because Jesus taught the spirit of the law . I must ask the question, how can one keep the spirit of the law, without keeping the letter also? Can we obey the 6th commandment by not getting unreasonably angry with our brother but kill him anyway? Can we commit adultery without lust?
God bless.
BL

 

[fhansen]

With this I think I can also agree. I do wonder however that sometimes we do get things as little mixed up at times when talking about the ‘spirit of the law’ and the ‘letter of the law’. Many advocate that NT Christians are not to keep the letter of the law any longer, because Jesus taught the spirit of the law . I must ask the question, how can one keep the spirit of the law, without keeping the letter also? Can we obey the 6th commandment by not getting unreasonably angry with our brother but kill him anyway? Can we commit adultery without lust?
God bless.
BL

We keep the spirit of the law by simply, genuinely, loving God and neighbor-not as simple as it sounds, though, as love could be said to be precisely what Adam & Eve lacked, or else they wouldn’t have sinned as they did. God’s love, acting through grace, seeks to perfect in us that same love, and this fulfills the Law and is the essence of our justification-that which makes us just.

Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Rom13:10

 

[Reuben_J]

Thanks, and you’re welcome.
I have answered this from one perspective on another thread concerning Galatians 3, but will do so here also. Baptism as revealed to us in Romans, is an act whereby we demonstrate our faith in the atonement. As Jesus died and was buried, by partaking in baptism, we show our faith and we also die and are buried with Him. As Jesus was raised from the dead, so also are we brought up out of the water to walk “in newness of life”. This is all an act of faith and trust in God’s promises, and through that faith we receive that power to walk in obedience to the commandments. Basically, that is what the gospel is all about. Bottom line,we die in Christ, and are raised with Him to eternal life. Romans 6,7 and 8 are a rich read and source of huge encouragement and affirmation as to how we stand in relation to God.

Hi brakelite. My thanks again for your reply.

I shall be in complete agreement with you here. Faith is vital and we would never under estimate its power to overcome and to help us in our walk to righteousness. Faith varies to a certain degree in each believer, from so little and to so much. In a sense faith is s gift because when it reaches a certain level and we are helpless as whether or not to plunge into the unknown of spiritual abyss; we can only depend on God to replenish our sometimes insufficient faith in order for us to reach greater height in our belief through our words and action.

I am still thinking however, about your usage of the blood of atonement as regards to this topic. I have my own thought on it but it would mainly in term of saving grace, spiritually and even physically.

In each of the gospel accounts, this incident took place immediately after Jesus had blessed the little children. This young man was a ruler (Luke 18:18), and likely there as part of the usual retinue of Pharisees and temple officials. After observing the way Jesus treated the children and loved them, this must have struck a chord in his heart, recognising how different Jesus was and how vastly better was His ways then what the young man had been brought up with and had observed in among his colleagues, after all, even the disciples at first were reluctant to allow the children near Him, (Mark 10:14) probably thinking that Jesus, like every other religious leader, didn’t have the time to spend talking with children. So this young ruler saw in Jesus a quality to be desired. Yet in himself , being a ruler and wealthy, likely had a high estimate of his own worth, yet knew something was lacking.
So Jesus tested his sincerity, to draw from the young man what he truly meant when he claimed the Lord to be ‘good’.
Jesus then went on saying, “thou knowest the commandments…” and quoted 5 of the 6 commandments that relate to our dealings with one another. These the young ruler said, he had kept. I wonder if he realised that Jesus had ommited the 10th? Love for others, which the young man would have recognised in Jesus, was essential if one desired to know God and attain to life, and the 10th commandment, the one that relates to covetousness, revealed the lack of love in his soul, and that ‘self’ and the desire for worldly greatness outweighed his desire for heavenly treasure. Who says that salvation is free? Freely given certainly, but it cost Jesus His life, and we must sacrifice self and this world also if we should see life.

That’s a beautiful insight on this Bible passage. I love the word and use it extensively as a ‘lamp to my feet and a light for my path’ in my daily walk with the Lord and in my direction in life. I use it for meditation and prayers too. I have no problem listening to Protestants in Bible study though it does pose a problem when it involves determining doctrines. That’s what we do in the non-Catholic religion section of the Forum – asserting each interpretation accordingly.

I like your remark – that salvation comes with a cost. As Jesus pays with his life and so do we to believe. Too often we take that for granted and so becomes indifference and even backslide in our faith and practice. Just as an aside, you do not seem to be believer in OSAS, do you?

With this I think I can also agree. I do wonder however that sometimes we do get things as little mixed up at times when talking about the ‘spirit of the law’ and the ‘letter of the law’. Many advocate that NT Christians are not to keep the letter of the law any longer, because Jesus taught the spirit of the law . I must ask the question, how can one keep the spirit of the law, without keeping the letter also? Can we obey the 6th commandment by not getting unreasonably angry with our brother but kill him anyway? Can we commit adultery without lust?
God bless.
BL

You sound more like a Catholic than the liberal Protestants that I used to come across. The law is a necessity because it teaches us on what sin is. fhansen quoted St Paul as saying the law is a teacher. However without the spirit but only following it to the letter, it kills. And yes, we have to observe both.

God bless.

 

[brakelite]

Hi Reuben, very astute of you…no, I am most definitely not OSAS. I debate this particular point interminably on Protestant forums: I consider that seemingly exclusive protestant belief as being very dangerous.
There are two errors against which the people of God need to guard. The first is that of looking to their own works, trusting in anything they can do, to bring themselves into harmony with God. He who is trying to become holy by his own works in keeping the commandments, is attempting an impossibility. All that man can do without Christ is corrupted with selfishness and sin.“Without Me ye can do nothing”(John 15:5) It is the grace of God alone, through faith that can make us holy.
The opposite and no less dangerous error is the belief, more prevalent within Protestantism than the Catholic community, is that belief in Christ releases men from keeping the law of God; since by faith alone we become partakers of the grace of Christ, our works have nothing to do with our redemption. “If ye love Me, keep My commandments”. (John 14:15)
As FHansen said, our obedience however, it must be noted, is not one of mere outward compliance, but the service of love. The laws of God are expressions of His nature; they are an embodiment of the great principle of love, and it is that, His love and law, which is the foundation of God’s government in heaven and on earth.
If our hearts are renewed after the image and likeness of Jesus (Romans 8:29), if divine love is implanted in the heart, then the new covenant promise** “I will put My laws in their hearts and in their minds I will write them” (Hebrews 10:16)** is fulfilled, and the “righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:4)
As to the blood of the atonement. You said, :I have my own thought on it but it would mainly in term of saving grace, spiritually and even physically. and I would agree with you. However, there is a bigger picture to be considered.
The OT services in the sanctuary that were instituted by Moses in the wilderness of Sinai. In Hebrews we are told that Moses had the earthly sanctuary built after the ‘pattern’ shown him on the mount. (Hebrews 8:5) The earthly tabernacle was patterned after the heavenly, a scaled down model of the original throne room of the Almighty. And all the furniture of the sanctuary is also a representation of what adorns the heavenly sanctuary. The holiest place upon earth at that time was the tabernacle in the wilderness, and later the temple in Jerusalem. The holiest room upon earth was the Holy of Holies, the second compartment of the temple into which the High priest entered but once a year. The holiest item in that room was the ark of the covenant because

1. It was the seat for the presence of God representing His throne in heaven, and
2. It was the receptacle for His holy law upon which the entire government of God is founded.
   Throughout Israel’s history, the sanctuary was the centre of their worship, their system of religious observance, their life. The services of the sanctuary represented to Israel everything they needed to know of the gospel. Sacrifice, atonement, justification, sanctification, judgment, even the second coming. Israel’s whole existence as a theocracy was directed from the sanctuary so long as God abode there.
   Today, Jesus as our High Priest has entered the heavenly sanctuary to serve as our Mediator.
   Heb. 8:1,2 ¶ Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
   The heavenly sanctuary today now serves as the centre of religious worship and God’s people are now directed from there through the Holy Spirit. And the scriptures direct us to the heavenly sanctuary for guidance, for intercession, for strength, for power, but most importantly, for salvation. For it is in heaven, right now, where Jesus is ministering His own blood before the throne of God, just as the High priest ministered the blood of the sacrificial animal in the Most Holy Place on the Day of Atonement. It is to heaven that we must direct our attention when praying, when worshiping, when praising.
   The service of the sanctuary presented a complete package deal. The blood of the sacrifice depicted the justification available to us as we reach out and place our faith in the blood of the Lamb. The priest then entered the first compartment of the tent or temple and ministered the blood before the veil and at the altar of incense. This represented Christ’s ascension to the heavenly sanctuary where He intercedes for us before His Father and ministers His blood (symbolically of course,obviously He isn’t still bleeding yet His shed blood even now stands as the basis for our salvation and is an integral component of His ministry toward us today), and it is from the heavenly sanctuary that the Holy Spirit is imparted to all those who seek help to overcome sin, strength to endure opposition and temptation, power to be effective witnesses in our communities, and understanding of God’s ways and His Word.
   It is to the heavenly sanctuary where Jesus is, that we are to direct our prayers and praise and worship.

 

[Reuben_J]

Hi Reuben, very astute of you…no, I am most definitely not OSAS. I debate this particular point interminably on Protestant forums: I consider that seemingly exclusive protestant belief as being very dangerous.
There are two errors against which the people of God need to guard. The first is that of looking to their own works, trusting in anything they can do, to bring themselves into harmony with God. He who is trying to become holy by his own works in keeping the commandments, is attempting an impossibility. All that man can do without Christ is corrupted with selfishness and sin.“Without Me ye can do nothing”(John 15:5) It is the grace of God alone, through faith that can make us holy.
The opposite and no less dangerous error is the belief, more prevalent within Protestantism than the Catholic community, is that belief in Christ releases men from keeping the law of God; since by faith alone we become partakers of the grace of Christ, our works have nothing to do with our redemption. “If ye love Me, keep My commandments”. (John 14:15)
As FHansen said, our obedience however, it must be noted, is not one of mere outward compliance, but the service of love. The laws of God are expressions of His nature; they are an embodiment of the great principle of love, and it is that, His love and law, which is the foundation of God’s government in heaven and on earth.
If our hearts are renewed after the image and likeness of Jesus (Romans 8:29), if divine love is implanted in the heart, then the new covenant promise** “I will put My laws in their hearts and in their minds I will write them” (Hebrews 10:16)** is fulfilled, and the “righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:4)
As to the blood of the atonement. You said, :I have my own thought on it but it would mainly in term of saving grace, spiritually and even physically. and I would agree with you. However, there is a bigger picture to be considered.
The OT services in the sanctuary that were instituted by Moses in the wilderness of Sinai. In Hebrews we are told that Moses had the earthly sanctuary built after the ‘pattern’ shown him on the mount. (Hebrews 8:5) The earthly tabernacle was patterned after the heavenly, a scaled down model of the original throne room of the Almighty. And all the furniture of the sanctuary is also a representation of what adorns the heavenly sanctuary. The holiest place upon earth at that time was the tabernacle in the wilderness, and later the temple in Jerusalem. The holiest room upon earth was the Holy of Holies, the second compartment of the temple into which the High priest entered but once a year. The holiest item in that room was the ark of the covenant because

1. It was the seat for the presence of God representing His throne in heaven, and
2. It was the receptacle for His holy law upon which the entire government of God is founded.
   Throughout Israel’s history, the sanctuary was the centre of their worship, their system of religious observance, their life. The services of the sanctuary represented to Israel everything they needed to know of the gospel. Sacrifice, atonement, justification, sanctification, judgment, even the second coming. Israel’s whole existence as a theocracy was directed from the sanctuary so long as God abode there.
   Today, Jesus as our High Priest has entered the heavenly sanctuary to serve as our Mediator.
   Heb. 8:1,2 ¶ Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
   The heavenly sanctuary today now serves as the centre of religious worship and God’s people are now directed from there through the Holy Spirit. And the scriptures direct us to the heavenly sanctuary for guidance, for intercession, for strength, for power, but most importantly, for salvation. For it is in heaven, right now, where Jesus is ministering His own blood before the throne of God, just as the High priest ministered the blood of the sacrificial animal in the Most Holy Place on the Day of Atonement. It is to heaven that we must direct our attention when praying, when worshiping, when praising.
   The service of the sanctuary presented a complete package deal. The blood of the sacrifice depicted the justification available to us as we reach out and place our faith in the blood of the Lamb. The priest then entered the first compartment of the tent or temple and ministered the blood before the veil and at the altar of incense. This represented Christ’s ascension to the heavenly sanctuary where He intercedes for us before His Father and ministers His blood (symbolically of course,obviously He isn’t still bleeding yet His shed blood even now stands as the basis for our salvation and is an integral component of His ministry toward us today), and it is from the heavenly sanctuary that the Holy Spirit is imparted to all those who seek help to overcome sin, strength to endure opposition and temptation, power to be effective witnesses in our communities, and understanding of God’s ways and His Word.
   It is to the heavenly sanctuary where Jesus is, that we are to direct our prayers and praise and worship.

Thanks brakelite. The sanctuary you mentioned reminds me of the sanctuary in our church where the mass was celebrated.

I really appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut on this thread. Your explanation of Mt 10 regarding the rich young ruler is noted with much gratitude. I’ll be speaking to my group tomorrow and perhaps I’ll use your (name removed by moderator)ut there especially as I thought I will be speaking on the topic of discipleship.

God bless you.

 

[fhansen]

The opposite and no less dangerous error is the belief, more prevalent within Protestantism than the Catholic community, is that belief in Christ releases men from keeping the law of God; since by faith alone we become partakers of the grace of Christ, our works have nothing to do with our redemption. “If ye love Me, keep My commandments”. (John 14:15)

I think it would be correct to say that, for much of Protestant theology, our faith alone justifies us, while in Catholic teaching it could be said that our love justifies us, because within love are included other dispositions such as faith and hope along with contrition for sin as well as various works born from that love. Which is another way of saying that, by our love, the commandments are fulfilled- and we are truly just, which is exactly where God has always wanted man from the beginning, after all.

 

[zarthan]

I think it would be correct to say that, for much of Protestant theology, our faith alone justifies us, while in Catholic teaching it could be said that our love justifies us, because within love are included other dispositions such as faith and hope along with contrition for sin as well as various works born from that love. Which is another way of saying that, by our love, the commandments are fulfilled- and we are truly just, which is exactly where God has always wanted man from the beginning, after all.

Fhansen: I appreciate many of the posts to this thread, but your posts truly shine with the teachings of Jesus Christ, his apostles and the saints. Although I do not think you meant to say that ‘our love’ justifies us, but rather the holy love of God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ dwelling within us that moves us and enables us to become holy and perfect before God and man.

 

[fhansen]

Fhansen: I appreciate many of the posts to this thread, but your posts truly shine with the teachings of Jesus Christ, his apostles and the saints. Although I do not think you meant to say that ‘our love’ justifies us, but rather the holy love of God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ dwelling within us that moves us and enables us to become holy and perfect before God and man.

What I’m getting at is that opposed to the notion that God uses our faith alone to save us, we’re asked to “achieve” more than that. He wants us truly, completely just, meaning to fulfill the Law by coming to love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor as ourselves.Of course, this is accomplished by His grace, firstly, which is virtually the same as saying its accomplished by His love, IMO and as you mentioned- but not without our consent. Love saving us unto love, so to speak. Thank you very much for the compliments-I’m learning everyday, as we all are.

 

[brakelite]

God is love. It is the essential intrinsic depth of His nature that we, even in heaven, will never in all eternity fully comprehend. And yes, it is God’s love for us, as expressed through the self denial self sacrificing death of His Son and the shedding of His precious blood upon the cross of Calvary, that justifies us. But it cannot be, nor ever was, love alone. Jesus had to die and shed His blood. Without that,without the blood of Christ, we would have no hope, we would die in our sins and be lost, forever.

***Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

---

It is faith, that takes a hold of that unique and priceless provision and makes it a reality in our lives. It is faith that seizes upon the promises of God , that trusts in Him Who made them to fulfil them, and trusts in nothing and no-one else, faith only and unerringly focused upon the atoning sacrifice of Christ, and He Who made it. By assuming human nature, Christ elevated humanity. Fallen men are placed were, through connection with Christ, they may become “sons and daughters of God.”
Such love is without parallel. Children of the heavenly King!!! Precious promise!! A theme for the most profound meditation. The matchless love of God for a world that did not love Him. The thought has a subduing effect and power upon the soul, and brings the mind into captivity to the will of God.
The more we study the divine character in light of the cross, the more we see the mercy, the tenderness, the grace and forgiveness blended with equity and justice, and the more clearly we see and understand the infinite depths of the a love that surpasses even that of a mother’s yearning for a lost child.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

And further, it is faith, complete trust in the unconditional love of God, that enables us to fully surrender to Him in all things, that He may restore us to His likeness . This is a gift through faith, it is Christ’s own righteousness imparted to us by grace through faith. And as some have intimated, it is through God implanting His own love in our hearts that we may love Him supremely in return and our neighbours as ourselves, love being the fulfilling of the law.

 

[fhansen]

God is love. It is the essential intrinsic depth of His nature that we, even in heaven, will never in all eternity fully comprehend. And yes, it is God’s love for us, as expressed through the self denial self sacrificing death of His Son and the shedding of His precious blood upon the cross of Calvary, that justifies us. But it cannot be, nor ever was, love alone. Jesus had to die and shed His blood. Without that,without the blood of Christ, we would have no hope, we would die in our sins and be lost, forever.

***Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

---

It is faith, that takes a hold of that unique and priceless provision and makes it a reality in our lives. It is faith that seizes upon the promises of God , that trusts in Him Who made them to fulfil them, and trusts in nothing and no-one else, faith only and unerringly focused upon the atoning sacrifice of Christ, and He Who made it. By assuming human nature, Christ elevated humanity. Fallen men are placed were, through connection with Christ, they may become “sons and daughters of God.”
Such love is without parallel. Children of the heavenly King!!! Precious promise!! A theme for the most profound meditation. The matchless love of God for a world that did not love Him. The thought has a subduing effect and power upon the soul, and brings the mind into captivity to the will of God.
The more we study the divine character in light of the cross, the more we see the mercy, the tenderness, the grace and forgiveness blended with equity and justice, and the more clearly we see and understand the infinite depths of the a love that surpasses even that of a mother’s yearning for a lost child.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

And further, it is faith, complete trust in the unconditional love of God, that enables us to fully surrender to Him in all things, that He may restore us to His likeness . This is a gift through faith, it is Christ’s own righteousness imparted to us by grace through faith. And as some have intimated, it is through God implanting His own love in our hearts that we may love Him supremely in return and our neighbours as ourselves, love being the fulfilling of the law.

Faith, for an adult, is just the beginning-not the end-all or sole requirement on our part -of our justification. Love is the goal. This is why St John of the Cross could say:

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love

 

[zarthan]

What I’m getting at is that opposed to the notion that God uses our faith alone to save us, we’re asked to “achieve” more than that. He wants us truly, completely just, meaning to fulfill the Law by coming to love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor as ourselves.Of course, this is accomplished by His grace, firstly, which is virtually the same as saying its accomplished by His love, IMO and as you mentioned- but not without our consent. Love saving us unto love, so to speak. Thank you very much for the compliments-I’m learning everyday, as we all are.

Yes, not without our consent. “Whoever would be my disciple, must take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake, and for the sake of the gospel will save it.”

 

[Robbinson]

Sorry for the delay Rueben - I missed this unanswered question earlier in the thread:

Hi Brian.

Do you have any reference for this (the bolded part)? Sorry, I just have to be sure.

"Sure - Can you identify anyone other than Jesus (and other than Mary who according to Church teaching was without sin) who was capable of, and lived an entire life, without committing sin (without violating any of the 10 commandments)? I don’t think it was possible and, as the NT teaches, one who violates any part of the law is guilty of violating “all of it”."

See James 2:10:
**" For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it."(**Jas 2:10–11: RSV-CE)

Blessings,

Brian

 

[fhansen]

Sorry for the delay Rueben - I missed this unanswered question earlier in the thread:

See James 2:10:
**" For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it."(**Jas 2:10–11: RSV-CE)

Blessings,

Brian

But we do have to recognize that James was exhorting believers to follow-that they must follow- the whole law.

 

[Robbinson]

But we do have to recognize that James was exhorting believers to follow-that they must follow- the whole law.

Yes agreed - the message being that if one is trying to follow the law, they must follow all of it and if break any of it, they are guilty of breaking all of it. This is why the Rich young man, under the old covenant, was not perfect - he said he kept the commandments (but Jesus knew he could not/did not keep them perfectly - and thus, without Jesus, sacrifice, was guilty of violating the “entire law”).

In the old covenant, this failure to abide by the “entire law” was addressed through animal sacrifice which covered our sins (albeit temporarily). In the new covenant, we live by faith in Christ which redeems us from our sins through the once and perfect sacrifice of Jesus. However (and its a big however), our faith leads to an obedience (the obedience of faith as Paul calls it) growing out of faith - a “desire” to follow the law of Christ (this is the moral law, the 10 commandments written into our hearts).

We will still, inevitably, fail to follow the 10 commandments perfectly (because we remain tainted by original sin), but as new creatures in Christ with the law written in our hearts, we will desire to follow it and repent when we don’t, and through our faith and Christ’s sacrifice, our sins are forgiven.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[fhansen]

Yes agreed - the message being that if one is trying to follow the law, they must follow all of it and if break any of it, they are guilty of breaking all of it. This is why the Rich young man, under the old covenant, was not perfect - he said he kept the commandments (but Jesus knew he could not/did not keep them perfectly - and thus, without Jesus, sacrifice, was guilty of violating the “entire law”).

In the old covenant, this failure to abide by the “entire law” was addressed through animal sacrifice which covered our sins (albeit temporarily). In the new covenant, we live by faith in Christ which redeems us from our sins through the once and perfect sacrifice of Jesus. However (and its a big however), our faith leads to an obedience (the obedience of faith as Paul calls it) growing out of faith - a “desire” to follow the law of Christ (this is the moral law, the 10 commandments written into our hearts).

We will still, inevitably, fail to follow the 10 commandments perfectly (because we remain tainted by original sin), but as new creatures in Christ with the law written in our hearts, we will desire to follow it and repent when we don’t, and through our faith and Christ’s sacrifice, our sins are forgiven.

Blessings,

Brian

Yes, the difference between Catholic theology and that of many non-Catholics being that, in order to enter heaven, we must follow the law completely, i.e. our justification is complete when we come to follow the whole Law, by abiding in love, not by mere faith alone.

 

[brakelite]

I agree that we must keep the law. Adam and Eve were thrown out of paradise because of disobedience, should we expect to re-enter while still disobeying?
Just one point however. Which version of the law is it that you think you ought to keep? The church’s or God’s?

 

[Robbinson]

I agree that we must keep the law. Adam and Eve were thrown out of paradise because of disobedience, should we expect to re-enter while still disobeying?
Just one point however. Which version of the law is it that you think you ought to keep? The church’s or God’s?

A fair question friend. God’s law - but as you may recall, Jesus gave Peter and the apostles express authority to bind and lose (on earth and in heaven) and so a measure of apostolic authority I believe to administer sacraments and define disciplines.

**I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Mt 16:19). **

**Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven
(Mt 18:18). **

Blessings,

Brian

 

[CEM5]

St Paul speaks about the law being the slave to serve us. Also he says we are no longer under a slave looking after us. What actually does he say?What does that mean to us today?

Hi Reuben,

You don’t mention which book of the Bible you are referring to for there are different points Paul was making depending on which audience he was speaking to,

For example:

Romans 6:16 NRSA
Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Romans 6:17 NRSA
But thanks be to God that you, having once been slaves of sin, have become obedient from the heart to the form of teaching to which you were entrusted,

Romans 6:18 NRSA
and that you, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.

Romans 6:19 NRSA
I am speaking in human terms because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness for sanctification.

Here Paul is talking about us being slaves to sin, and when we turn away from sinfulness, we are to become slaves to obedience (in God). We are not to let sin become the master of our lives, but rather we are to serve God, and become “slaves” to righteousness. He uses this analogy because in this society there were masters and slaves, and the slaves were always to serve their master (or else face the consequences if they did not). Therefore, our “master” is either sin, or righteousness.

2 Peter 2:19 NRSA
They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption; for people are slaves to whatever masters them.

Romans 7:
14 For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am of the flesh, sold into slavery under sin. 15 I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. 17 But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me…24 Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh I am a slave to the law of sin.

The “Law” was never meant to be discarded, but showed us that by breaking any of them, we sinned. But through Christ, we can overcome sin. Recall, Jesus said He did not come to discard the law, but to uphold it.

Also, Paul was talking about the “law” of circumcision and that we as Christians are not meant to follow this anymore.

We are still to uphold the 10 commandments.

 

[fhansen]

I agree that we must keep the law. Adam and Eve were thrown out of paradise because of disobedience, should we expect to re-enter while still disobeying?
Just one point however. Which version of the law is it that you think you ought to keep? The church’s or God’s?

God’s law, of course, which the Church helps us to achieve.