Slavery Rampant in Africa, Middle East; The West Wrongly Accuses Itself

  • Thread starter Thread starter Victoria33
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Last edited:
You know the problem I see with certain aspects of the argument for systemic racism is one of a disconnect between leftist argumentation and what could be termed right wing argumentation.

I’ve cited Hayek before and you’ve dismissed him. I think studying him should be compulsory for the left as he can aid in formulating some of your arguments. Specifically his idea of spontaneous order.

Obviously one must demarcate between governmental racism as evident in apartheid South Africa and Jim Crow era US, and what today is referred to as systemic racism.

This is where spontaneous order comes in. The idea of spontaneous order is that out of the choices of individuals, many individuals, comes a larger order which no one intended and which, consequently, it is very hard for a central power to control to any effective measure. Such is the market, for instance.

In the sense of spontaneous order I could accept that the many racist actions of individuals goes to form an order larger than itself. However that requires accepting Hayek’s formulation of the concept, which in turn means accepting his argument for a market order.

So the problem as I see it for the left is admitting the very concept they have fought so hard against to explain one of their biggest talking points these days.

I highly recommend Hayek.

 
StudentMI said:
I’ve cited Hayek before and you’ve dismissed him.
Click to expand...
I didn’t dismiss him. I know nothing about him and you refused to present his arguments.
I think studying him should be compulsory for the left as he can aid in formulating some of your arguments.
Click to expand...
I think my arguments are just fine. They do not need any aid. But thank you for the offer.
Obviously one must demarcate between governmental racism as evident in apartheid South Africa and Jim Crow era US, and what today is referred to as systemic racism.
Click to expand...
Seems like a continuum to me. Where is the magic point at which systemic racism disappeared? Please cite the exact date.
This is where spontaneous order comes in. The idea of spontaneous order is that out of the choices of individuals, many individuals, comes a larger order which no one intended and which, consequently, it is very hard for a central power to control to any effective measure. Such is the market, for instance.

In the sense of spontaneous order I could accept that the many racist actions of individuals goes to form an order larger than itself. However that requires accepting Hayek’s formulation of the concept, which in turn means accepting his argument for a market order.
Click to expand...
Is racism arising from spontaneous order any less reprehensible than a governmental law? I don’t think so. For example, if only one hotel in Georgia refused service to blacks, that would not be a problem. Blacks would just go to some other, equally fine, hotel. But if most of the hotels in Georgia refused service to blacks (due to spontaneous order), then blacks have greatly diminished opportunities. That is why we now have anti-discrimination laws that prevent that sort of spontaneous order from becoming established.
 
Last edited:
You’re missing my point. I just presented an argument whereby I could accept systemic racism as a thing. But
LeafByNiggle said:
I think my arguments are just fine. They do not need any aid. But thank you for the offer.
Click to expand...
This is what I meant about a discussion. Why not refine your arguments? It can only help, especially in disseminating your ideas.

At least you read the post. Most people on the left see Hayek’s name and dismiss it out of hand.

Please read the Hayek essay I posted. It’s one of his best.
 
Last edited:
And yes Hayek is hard to read. He was from Austria so his English is very stilted.
 
OK, I read the Hayek article you cited. I find myself in general agreement with him on the economic benefits of a free-market economy over centralized planning. This is nothing new for me. I always believed that. However nowhere in that article did the subject of systemic racism even come up.
 
I know. The article wasn’t about that. It was about dispersed knowledge and what he came to refer to as spontaneous order.

I could accept systemic racism as a thing based on the premises I laid out.
 
Hmmm, the spontaneous order theory of systemic racism. I smell a thread in the making!
 
Genetic Fallacy. That’s enough for me to know the ultimate fate of this thread.
 
Last edited:
Malka said:
Genetic Fallacy. That’s enough for me to know the ultimate fate of this thread.
Click to expand...
Genetic reasoning is not always a fallacy.

In this case Ben Shapiro is not simply delivering information. He is added his own interpretation to that information. The reliability of someone’s opinion can certainly be evaluated based partly on that person’s reputation.
 
Shapiro’s reputation seems to vary according to the ideological stance a person holds. I think you need to offer more to counteract his argument than just “I wouldn’t trust him to explain anything.”
 
Last edited:
The paper does not establish causation, just a correlation, and not even the correlation that would say that a Republican mayor would produce fewer murders.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
Republican mayor would produce fewer murders
Click to expand...
The Republican mayors are far less likely than Democrats to tell their police to stand down during riots and destruction. Please see Minneapolis, Seattle, and Portland.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top