Slavery

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According to the Bible children can be born into slavery. According to the Bible people can be purchased and remain in slavery forever. The difference is that we put prisoners to work as a punishment for their deeds. Many of the different people God allows to become slaves have commited no crime whatsoever.
And we could talk about each of those laws individually. Not a one is immoral. You must understand the purpose of each law, as well as its real meaning within the particular context, including the salvific narrative… Canaan had to be conquered, etc.

I will again recommend the book I alluded to. This is not a simple topic.
 
Fair enough.

Please help us understand; in what context is it not immoral, to instruct the owner of human beings that beatings are OK, so long as they do not result in the death of a slave or the loss of his or her eye?

Because if I’m not mistaken, there is no context in which I could tell a police officer, district attorney or judge, that I beat my wife, child or next door neighbor so that he or she almost died and lost an eye but that I’m not guilty of any crime, since they are still alive and not blind. And that’s in a wicked secular society like the United States.

Can you imagine a context in which this scenario would not be considered immoral?
 
Fair enough.

Please help us understand; in what context is it not immoral, to instruct the owner of human beings that beatings are OK, so long as they do not result in the death of a slave or the loss of his or her eye?

Because if I’m not mistaken, there is no context in which I could tell a police officer, district attorney or judge, that I beat my wife, child or next door neighbor so that he or she almost died and lost an eye but that I’m not guilty of any crime, since they are still alive and not blind. And that’s in a wicked secular society like the United States.

Can you imagine a context in which this scenario would not be considered immoral?
Please provide a particular verse for analysis. (I am willing to do this one time… Again, not a simple topic, and there are resources out there.) Being specific and grounded in the text is extremely important to understanding the reality of OT slavery.

Remember the basic principle though… God does not legislate immorality.
 
Mike from NJ:
According to the Bible children can be born into slavery. According to the Bible people can be purchased and remain in slavery forever. The difference is that we put prisoners to work as a punishment for their deeds. Many of the different people God allows to become slaves have commited no crime whatsoever.
And we could talk about each of those laws individually. Not a one is immoral. You must understand the purpose of each law, as well as its real meaning within the particular context, including the salvific narrative… Canaan had to be conquered, etc.

I will again recommend the book I alluded to. This is not a simple topic.
I’m sorry. “Not a one is immoral”? Children being born into slavery isn’t immoral? Being purchased as a person of a neighboring nation isn’t immoral? I’d be interested if you can go into detail, because they sound pretty horrifying. And remember we need to know why these things are moral, not slightly less immoral.

As far as the book I’ll stop in my Barnes and Noble tomorrow to see if they have it. Still we are talking about God and not popes. Sure there’s plenty to be said about popes endorsing slavery and waiting over a millennia to denounce it (even using language associated with infallibility to defend it), but popes are fallible and God is not supposed to be.
 
I’m sorry. “Not a one is immoral”? Children being born into slavery isn’t immoral? Being purchased as a person of a neighboring nation isn’t immoral? I’d be interested if you can go into detail, because they sound pretty horrifying. And remember we need to know why these things are moral, not slightly less immoral.

As far as the book I’ll stop in my Barnes and Noble tomorrow to see if they have it. Still we are talking about God and not popes. Sure there’s plenty to be said about popes endorsing slavery and waiting over a millennia to denounce it (even using language associated with infallibility to defend it), but popes are fallible and God is not supposed to be.
If you begin with unbelief, I am not sure what you even mean by the word “moral.” (And I don’t want to get into that - too many bad experiences here with that, just think through the ultimate consequences and see what the bottom line really is, etc.) What you might take away from this discussion is an idea of the complexity of the issue. The one word “slavery” has many meanings, and there are many complicated things going on in the Torah.
 
If you begin with unbelief, I am not sure what you even mean by the word “moral.” (And I don’t want to get into that - too many bad experiences here with that, just think through the ultimate consequences and see what the bottom line really is, etc.)
Since I’m not the one bending over backwards to defend slavery, I’ll be more than happy to take the lead on what is and what is not moral 😉
What you might take away from this discussion is an idea of the complexity of the issue. The one word “slavery” has many meanings, and there are many complicated things going on in the Torah.
Assuming that is true, the meaning of slavery that God uses in the Bible includes all those terrible things that I’ve mentioned and the OP mentioned, which are not good. So we can dispose of any claims that there is a bright line that separates slavery then and recent slavery.
 
If you begin with unbelief, I am not sure what you even mean by the word “moral.”

Are you sure? That’s funny, implying that belief in god is the only source of morality. Yet we see every day (and this discussion has affirmed) that most Christians have a sense of right and wrong that is totally separate from what the bible says.

Have you stoned a disobedient child to death recently? Or is that immoral?
Have you killed a homosexual today? Or is that wrong?
Have you burned a witch lately?

Probably not, because I assume you are a decent person with decent 21st century morality, which has evolved over time, aside from any particular religious teaching.

A Christian can say “slavery is wrong,” even though his holy book condones it.

But if someone “beginning with unbelief” says “slavery is wrong,” you say “how do you know?”

I give up. ** Playing tennis without a net.**
 
If you begin with unbelief, I am not sure what you even mean by the word “moral.”

Are you sure? That’s funny, implying that belief in god is the only source of morality. Yet we see every day (and this discussion has affirmed) that most Christians have a sense of right and wrong that is totally separate from what the bible says.

Have you stoned a disobedient child to death recently? Or is that immoral?
Have you killed a homosexual today? Or is that wrong?
Have you burned a witch lately?

Probably not, because I assume you are a decent person with decent 21st century morality, which has evolved over time, aside from any particular religious teaching.

A Christian can say “slavery is wrong,” even though his holy book condones it.

But if someone “beginning with unbelief” says “slavery is wrong,” you say “how do you know?”

I give up. ** Playing tennis without a net.**
You are in dangerous territory… If God condones something through legislation, it can not be immoral. Otherwise, God leads people to sin through commanding sin.

Seeing as you have not provided a verse, but rather some generalities (none of which even deal with slavery), it is difficult to believe you are sincerely looking for answers. If you are, go ahead and pick a verse to look at.

Feel free also to read the millions of threads on “secular morality” on this site. (Or take a short cut and read a book. Maybe try After Virtue.) I refuse to make the attempt anymore here… Too many layers to push through. And the discussion inevitably runs away from the basic foundations of human motivation for action (happiness) and ends with angry stalemates as a result.
 
Yes He told them in no uncertain terms. Yet they kept disobeying Him.
Ye gods, even my local council doesn’t take that attitude: ‘Look, we don’t want you to extend your property but we know you’re going to do it anyway, so…look, if you could just keep it down to three stories, then that would be just fine and dandy for now’.

So you have God (you know, the omnipotent creator of the whole universe) saying: ‘Look, I guess it doesn’t matter what I say, you are still going to have slaves, so look…when you have them, can you please only beat them with a stick this big? Can you do that for me? Please?’

What’s next? A maximum size of rock for when you stone someone to death?
The only thing that saved him was Moses’ wife quickly circumcising their son with a rock…
Now that’s something I can’t unread. Thanks, Mike…
 
Yet one of the cruelest things was left off of the list.



As I stated above, making a man choose between freedom and his family is blackmail and not a personal preference. It’s Hobson Choice.
It’s really awesome that you don’t know anyone who would gladly trade their dignity if it meant someone would supply them with food/clothes/shelter and some other basic necessities, rather than tossing them out into the street to make their way as best they can.

Poverty is what makes slavery. Poverty is what makes slavery acceptable. I suspect most people think of slavery in terms of the 16th-19th c. African slave trade, and completely ignore the millennia worth of other cultural/historical examples.

I had a nice 3/1.5 house, which I purchased and worked hard (and spent much) to renovate. I rented it out. My tenant was having trouble when his hours got cut, and I was “working with him” while I waited for his hours to go back to normal. What I didn’t realize was that he also wasn’t paying the electric bill, and his power had been shut off. He moved out in the middle of the night by candlelight. He got exactly one load of stuff out before a candle fell over, and burned the whole place down. We stood in the parking lot across the street and watched it burn together. “Everything I own was in there,” he told me. He didn’t say one word of apology about my loss.

What is he supposed to do to “make it right”? Even if he gave me every penny of his paycheck, he owed me more than he could earn in four or five years for that house. If we were in some ancient civilization, he would have belonged to me— whether for the rest of his natural life, or for a set period of time, while he worked off his debt to me. I would have fed him and clothed him, but I would have owned him.

What happened in reality was that he ran off to another state, and I let him go, because I never wanted to see him again.

But for thousands of years, that’s what slavery was. It wasn’t necessarily a condition you were born to, or that you stayed in for your whole life. Freemen would descend into slavery through misfortune-- war, or debt, or whatever. Or a slave could rise back into the ranks of the free-- either by completing a set term of servitude, as with the Hebrews, or by manumission, or by other methods. There wasn’t necessarily a stigma against freed slaves, either— consider the number of ex-slaves who rose to great power during the Julio-Claudian period.

But basically, you trade your freedom for economic stability. And for many, many, many people in the world today… they wouldn’t mind trading a little dignity and independence for economic stability. It doesn’t take much imagination to find modern parallels.

From Belloc—
The attempt to escape by a personal effort, whether of thrift, of adventure, or of flattery to a master, from the Servile condition had never even so much of driving power behind it as the attempt many show today to escape from the rank of wage-earners to those of employers. Servitude did not seem a hell into which a man would rather die than sink, or out of which at any sacrifice whatsoever a man would raise himself. It was a condition accepted by those who suffered it as much as by those who enjoyed it, and a perfectly necessary part of all that men did and thought.
You find no barbarian from some free place astonished at the institution of Slavery; you find no Slave pointing to a society in which Slavery was unknown as towards a happier land. To our ancestors not only as those few centuries during which we have record of their actions, but apparently during an illimitable past, the division of society into those who must work under compulsion and those who would benefit by their labour was the very plan of the State-- apart from which they could hardly think of society as existing at all.
Let this all be clearly grasped. It is fundamental to an understanding of the problem before us. Slavery is no novel experience in the history of Europe; nor is one suffering an odd dream when one talks of Slavery as acceptable to European men. Slavery was of the very stuff of Europe for thousands upon thousands of years, until Europe engaged upon that considerable moral experiment called The Faith, which many believe to be now accomplished and discarded, and in the failure of which it would seem that the old and primary institution of Slavery must return…
Basically, Belloc is making the point-- over 100 years ago-- that slavery is the default economic system whereby the means of production, labor, and capital are all owned by a relatively small number of people, and that regardless of whether you try pure capitalism or pure socialism, the road always ends in Slavery, where the wealth and power are concentrated and centralized amongst the few. (Has anyone been talking about the 1%'ers recently? Does anyone remember Occupy Wall Street?) It won’t necessarily look like the Antebellum South, but if you move among certain socioeconomic circles, the parallels are certainly there in plain sight.
 
(snipped) When defending Biblical slavery, pro-slavery Christians revel in the impotence of God and not his goodness.
I am not ‘defending slavery’. I am attempting to defend God, whom you blame for the existence of slavery.

And* I will thank you *not to tell me I’m pro-slavery.

With that I’m out of here.
 
It’s really awesome that you don’t know anyone who would gladly trade their dignity if it meant someone would supply them with food/clothes/shelter and some other basic necessities, rather than tossing them out into the street to make their way as best they can.
First of all, the item of mine you quoted was about the blackmail that was described by God in Exodus where he said a released male Hebrew slave was to be freed after 6 years without his family. This has nothing to do with working menial labor to support a family. This isn’t about a man having to work two jobs (like my dad did) to support his family. This is about a man being separated from his family in a blackmail scheme that God created. There is simply no comparison.
Poverty is what makes slavery. Poverty is what makes slavery acceptable.
What makes it “acceptable” is good people justifying such acts for their benefit, whether it’s a financial benefit, being told that slaves are but property (as God does twice), or by people who will try to defend the indefensible to protect the honor of their deity.
I suspect most people think of slavery in terms of the 16th-19th c. African slave trade, and completely ignore the millennia worth of other cultural/historical examples.
I’ve already shown many similarities between the African slave trade and the method of slavery approved by God in the Bible. Slavery is wrong. Full stop.
…He got exactly one load of stuff out before a candle fell over, and burned the whole place down. We stood in the parking lot across the street and watched it burn together. “Everything I own was in there,” he told me. He didn’t say one word of apology about my loss…
What you describe is indentured servitude, a real thing that occurred. While it was fraught with its own problems, But there are significant differences.

Let’s take your story. You said that if he were to give every penny it would take him 4 or 5 years to pay off your house. Let’s say instead of him flaking out you and he came to some arrangement where he would do just that. You find him a job and he gets back on his feet paying you as much as he can.

What are some of the things you can’t do in this situation? Well for starters you can’t physically injure him. You most certainly can’t kill the way God says you can in Exodus 21:21. If while getting on his feet he gets a wife a kid, you can’t keep them from him when he’s done paying you back just so you can blackmail him into being your eternal house servant – as well as having his wife and child as eternal slaves as well.

You see we’ve become enlightened enough to not demand physical punishments for financial losses. And God, all knowing and all seeing, would have had a chance to see that enlightenment for himself. There is no excuse for God (if he were to exist) to not lay out a society that the Church sees as good now.
But for thousands of years, that’s what slavery was. It wasn’t necessarily a condition you were born to, or that you stayed in for your whole life.
Not necessarily a condition you were born into, but certainly one God approved of. By his rules there were some that were born into slavery. Some were blackmailed into it. The only ones that weren’t were male Hebrew slaves who had served for 6 years and had not submitted to blackmail,
Freemen would descend into slavery through misfortune-- war, or debt, or whatever. Or a slave could rise back into the ranks of the free-- either by completing a set term of servitude, as with the Hebrews, or by manumission, or by other methods. There wasn’t necessarily a stigma against freed slaves, either— consider the number of ex-slaves who rose to great power during the Julio-Claudian period.
But basically, you trade your freedom for economic stability. And for many, many, many people in the world today… they wouldn’t mind trading a little dignity and independence for economic stability. It doesn’t take much imagination to find modern parallels.
It’s not about dignity. It’s about not being beaten. It’s about not being raped. It’s about not being killed. It’s about the tiniest shred of freedom.

My boss can’t beat me if I can’t cover some overtime. My brother’s boss doesn’t own my brother’s kids in perpetuity forcing them to work. Companies aren’t allowed to purchase foreigners and force them to work them to the bone against their will. Modern day employment is not slavery.
Basically, Belloc is making the point-- over 100 years ago-- that slavery is the default economic system whereby the means of production, labor, and capital are all owned by a relatively small number of people, and that regardless of whether you try pure capitalism or pure socialism, the road always ends in Slavery, where the wealth and power are concentrated and centralized amongst the few. (Has anyone been talking about the 1%'ers recently? Does anyone remember Occupy Wall Street?) It won’t necessarily look like the Antebellum South, but if you move among certain socioeconomic circles, the parallels are certainly there in plain sight.
As a member of the 99% I’d mock the average person who tried to compare their situation to slavery.

And even if the default economic system were slavery (which it’s not) as I’ve pointed out God is supposed to be all knowing and infinite in intelligence. Not only did he not come up with anything better, but he’s praised for such utter lack of foresight.
 
I am not ‘defending slavery’. I am attempting to defend God, whom you blame for the existence of slavery.

And* I will thank you *not to tell me I’m pro-slavery.

With that I’m out of here.
I don’t blame God for the existence of slavery. (I don’t think he exists.) The character of God told his people how to continue and expand the act of enslavement. People at that time and millennia later pointed to those words defending such monstrous acts. Defending that character approving of such acts that everyone knows is wrong is defending slavery. To defend slavery is to be pro-slavery.
 
Manslaughter is accidental,
In part, you’re correct. It’s the accidental killing of another without malice (meaning without the intention to harm or kill). I guess whether God allows the manslaughter or murder of slaves depends on whether you think beating them severely enough that they die a day later counts as malice.
them property doesnt mean you also deny they are perosns
Calling someone property quite literally means they are not considered a person.
also arranged marriages are different to forced marriages.
It’s still rape.
 
Big name Catholic apologist claim, “You don’t have to check your brain at the door to be a good Catholic.”

Yes, I read books. I was preparing to enter seminary; I read all the popular apologists and the ENTIRE bible, not just the loving verses in Ephesians and the Gospel of John. I read the nasty bits too, about burning your daughter to death to please god, slaughtering men, women and children in battle, and trading the foreskins of dead enemies for the chick whom you want to marry… nothing shocking here to the average pew-sitter, right?

It’s been said over and over on this forum, “It cannot be x or y because god did/said it.”
It’s impossible to get a straight, honest answer.

That is checking one’s brain at the door.

As recently as 1978, there were Muslim clerics condemning talk of modern cosmology with a death sentence, because it contradicts the Quran.

Think about that. My eyes see it, my brain understands it but it simply cannot BE, because the book says otherwise. How is that different?

Peace.
 
Hi.

Today I read in the Catechism where it clearly declares that slavery, the owning of one human person by another, is gravely wrong and an insult to human dignity. I personally agree.

But how does this reconcile with scripture, wherein slavery is accepted and even carefully regulated?

For example:

*“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed."

“When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money."

“When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free because of his eye. If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male or female, he shall let the slave go free because of his tooth."* Exodus 21

And the New Testament is no different:

*“Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.” Ephesians 6

“Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.”* 1 Peter

I don’t understand. God never said “slavery is wrong,” when he was giving commandments. Some say, “well that was the culture at the time so God allowed it.”

But why didn’t Jesus or the apostles say “Stop owning people,” or words to that effect, if God did not approve of it? They mentioned many less important things, such as eating meats, giving to the collection plate, women speaking in church, speaking in tongues, gossip, etc…

The southern states quoted the bible when defending slavery in the pre civil war United States. Which is correct, the bible or the catechism?

Thanks.
Looking at the posts here reminds me of the rabbit hole we find ourselves in when we rely on sola scriptura. There is a reason why Scripture itself says that the pillar and foundation of the truth is the Church and not Scripture.

We cannot rely on scripture alone to see what God thinks of slavery. After all both the slave owners and the abolitionists quote the same Scripture to justify their views.

We must rely on what the Church says about slavery and if the Catechism thinks it is wrong, it is wrong.

We could say the same about other topics like polygamy and the submission of wives to husbands. Other topics which could lead to rabbit holes of confusion.
 
We could say the same about other topics like polygamy and the submission of wives to husbands

Exactly. Another example of “god says one thing and evolved human morality says another.”

Every day we hear some Christian talk about marriage being “one man and one woman” but in scripture I see supposedly godly men with many wives and concubines! Which is it? How can masturbation be sinful while having a dozen women to have sex with but not marry is fine for David, Solomon, etc.?

My point is that people claim they get morality from god, or scripture, but they clearly (and thankfully!) do not.
 
We could say the same about other topics like polygamy and the submission of wives to husbands

Exactly. Another example of “god says one thing and evolved human morality says another.”

Every day we hear some Christian talk about marriage being “one man and one woman” but in scripture I see supposedly godly men with many wives and concubines! Which is it? How can masturbation be sinful while having a dozen women to have sex with but not marry is fine for David, Solomon, etc.?

My point is that people claim they get morality from god, or scripture, but they clearly (and thankfully!) do not.
I mentioned this earlier up thread, but it’s my understanding that not all of Leviticus and Deuteronomy were the direct commands of God through Moses (as the Ten Commandments were), and were added later to the Law as Hebrew society developed. In part, this is why some of it was later disregarded, as the laws of man, not the law of God.
 
First of all, the item of mine you quoted was about the blackmail that was described by God in Exodus where he said a released male Hebrew slave was to be freed after 6 years without his family. This has nothing to do with working menial labor to support a family. This isn’t about a man having to work two jobs (like my dad did) to support his family. This is about a man being separated from his family in a blackmail scheme that God created. There is simply no comparison.
Who says he’s serving his six years without his wife and children? Don’t you remember that nice parable:
23 That is why the kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who decided to settle accounts with his servants.
24 **When he began the accounting, a debtor was brought before him who owed him a huge amount.
25 Since he had no way of paying it back, his master ordered him to be sold, along with his wife, his children, and all his property, in payment of the debt.
26 [c]At that, the servant fell down, did him homage, and said, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back in full.’
27 Moved with compassion the master of that servant let him go and forgave him the loan.
28 When that servant had left, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a much smaller amount.[d] He seized him and started to choke him, demanding, ‘Pay back what you owe.’
29 Falling to his knees, his fellow servant begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.’
30 But he refused. Instead, he had him put in prison until he paid back the debt.
31 Now when his fellow servants saw what had happened, they were deeply disturbed, and went to their master and reported the whole affair.
32 His master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you your entire debt because you begged me to.
33 Should you not have had pity on your fellow servant, as I had pity on you?’
34 Then in anger his master handed him over to the torturers until he should pay back the whole debt.[e]
35 [f]So will my heavenly Father do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart.”
**
 
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