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itsjustdave1988
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According to the Protestant Christianity Today article I linked to above…
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stanley123
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You can consult other reference which say the same thing. For example, the book: “The Slave Trade”, by Hugh Thomas. The book you refer to does not give an honest descrip;tion of what happened in the case of the Roman Catholic bishop of Chiapas, Bartolomé de Las Casas. Father Panzer writes about the the work of the Catholic priest, Bartolomeo de las Casas, in ending the enslavement of the indigenous peoples by the Spanish colonists. But on the other hand, Fr. Panzer is completely silent about De las Casas’ suggestion that Africans be used as slaves instead.
In 1517, this idea of the bishop was accepted and a Spanish nobleman was granted a license to import a specified number of African slaves. Soon, thousands of slaves were imported into Hisp;anolia and into other islands of the Caribbean, and with the development of the sugar plantation, it assumed colossal proportions. So although Father Panzer says that the bishop began a policy of mercy for the American Indian, he fails to note that the policy of the Bishop became the origin of one of the cruelest institutions of all time, the enslavement of blacks on the sugar plantations. So the book yuo recommend is not an honest book, as it does not honestly describe what happened and how one of the most cruel institutions of all time came into being.
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stanley123
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We can quote His Holiness Pope Nicholas V:
In 1452, Pope Nicholas V issued the bull Dum diversa which grantedKing Alfonso of Portugal “general and indefinite powers to searchout and conquer all pagans” and to enslave them and appropriate their lands and goods.
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Emly
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“Pius II declared slavery to be “a great crime” (magnum scelus); that, in 1537, Paul III forbade the enslavement of the Indians; that Urban VIII forbade it in 1639, and Benedict XIV in 1741; that Pius VII demanded of the Congress of Vienna, in 1815, the suppression of the slave trade and Gregory XVI condemned it in 1839; that, in the Bull of Canonization of the Jesuit Peter Claver, one of the most illustrious adversaries of slavery, Pius IX branded the “supreme villainy” (summum nefas) of the slave traders. Everyone knows of the beautiful letter which Leo XIII, in 1888, addressed to the Brazilian bishops, exhorting them to banish from their country the remnants of slavery – a letter to which the bishops responded with their most energetic efforts, and some generous slave-owners by freeing their slaves in a body, as in the first ages of the Church.”
So they did say somthing about the nafearious altrositys of the Imperealistic age, and the slave trade…
For more information on the Church, and slavery check out
newadvent.org/cathen/14036a.htm
So they did say somthing about the nafearious altrositys of the Imperealistic age, and the slave trade…
For more information on the Church, and slavery check out
newadvent.org/cathen/14036a.htm
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stanley123
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EmlySo they did say somthing about the nafearious altrositys of the Imperealistic age:
Personally, I do not think it is a good idea to praise an individual whose suggestion led to the establishment of one of the most cruel institutions of slavery in the New World.
I am opposed to the enslavement of thousands of black Africans to be used on the sugar plantations in the Caribbean islands. How did this enslavement of backs start in the first place? In 1517 the the Roman Catholic bishop of Chiapas, Bartolomé de Las Casas, suggested that black Africans be used as slaves instead of American Indians. Now according to a poster here: “If you want a scholarly source on the topic, I recommend Fr. Joel Panzer’s book The Popes and Slavery (Alba House, 1996). That way you receive more than just the propoganda that wikipedia and Stanley123 have to offer.” In other words, what happened to the African blacks in one of the most cruel institutions that ever existed, the enslavement of thousands of black people on the Caribbean sugar plantations, is said to be propaganda. Instead we are supposed to rely on the “scholarly source” book by Father Panzer which praises the the Roman Catholic bishop of Chiapas, Bartolomé de Las Casas.
Personally, I do not think it is a good idea to praise an individual whose suggestion led to the establishment of one of the most cruel institutions of slavery in the New World.
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stanley123
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Emly said:
I am opposed to the enslavement of thousands of black Africans to be used on the sugar plantations in the Caribbean islands. How did this enslavement of backs start in the first place? In 1517 the the Roman Catholic bishop of Chiapas, Bartolomé de Las Casas, suggested that black Africans be used as slaves instead of American Indians. Now according to a poster here: “If you want a scholarly source on the topic, I recommend Fr. Joel Panzer’s book The Popes and Slavery (Alba House, 1996). That way you receive more than just the propoganda that wikipedia and Stanley123 have to offer.” In other words, what happened to the African blacks in one of the most cruel institutions that ever existed, the enslavement of thousands of black people on the Caribbean sugar plantations, is said to be propaganda. Instead we are supposed to rely on the “scholarly source” book by Father Panzer which praises the the Roman Catholic bishop of Chiapas, Bartolomé de Las Casas.
Personally, I do not think it is a good idea to praise an individual whose suggestion led to the establishment of one of the most cruel institutions of slavery in the New World.
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tjmiller
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Once again: why do we here treat of slavery as if it were something absolutely wrong?
As Aristotle recognized, there are some people who are fit for nothing better…
As Aristotle recognized, there are some people who are fit for nothing better…
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itsjustdave1988
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I note that your quote ends before the words “to enslave…” begins. Is that your editorial note or did you simply pilfer this from the article by Richard Schultz without giving him credit?
If your gonna quote the pope, then quote him. What exactly did he say in context? Don’t plagarize from Schultz, as it just shows us that you lack integrity.
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itsjustdave1988
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What happened to the African blacks in one of the most cruel institutions that ever existed, the enslavement of thousands of black people on the Caribbean sugar plantations… was contrary to every papal bull I’ve cited on this thread.
Of the two of us, I’m the only one that has cited actual papal bulls to support my position. Your rebuttal: some bishop so-and-so did something. My reply…prove it with evidence, not wikipedia opinion.
Merely repeating your assertions over again does not constitute support for your claim.
Even the Protesant author I cited shows by citing papal documents how the popes have consistenly opposed this type of unjust slavery, your propaganda to the contrary notwithstanding.
Of the two of us, I’m the only one that has cited actual papal bulls to support my position. Your rebuttal: some bishop so-and-so did something. My reply…prove it with evidence, not wikipedia opinion.
Merely repeating your assertions over again does not constitute support for your claim.
Even the Protesant author I cited shows by citing papal documents how the popes have consistenly opposed this type of unjust slavery, your propaganda to the contrary notwithstanding.
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itsjustdave1988
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By the way, how is this chattel slavery? Without context, its hard to tell, but it seems to me the pope has granted the King the authority to crusade against enemies of Christendom. Yep, that definitely happened with papal approval.
Placing the conquered enemies of under the servitude of the conquering king was kinda standard warfare during the crusades for both sides (and in the Bible). Even today we can make prisoners of war perform “forced labor” in accord with current international law.
Don’t see how this relates to chattel slavery though, as this had nothing to do with the race of those conquered, but more to do with them being considered enemies of the state, like the Saracens.
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itsjustdave1988
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I don’t think we are. Several have shown that there are certain kinds of just slavery. This, of course, makes Stanley123’s polemics seem dubious, as he would rather the case be that the Catholic Church reversed her doctrinal position on slavery. Yet, that’s simply not the case.
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stanley123
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You didn’t really answer the objection to Dum diversa, which is found in many sources. Here is a quote from the papal bull Romanus Pontifex by the vicar of Christ:
“We [therefore] weighing all and singular the premises with due meditation, and noting that since we had formerly by other letters of ours granted among other things free and ample faculty to the aforesaid King Alfonso – to invade, search out, capture, vanquish, and subdue all Saracens and pagans whatsoever, and other enemies of Christ wheresoever placed, and the kingdoms, dukedoms, principalities, dominions, possessions, and all movable and immovable goods whatsoever held and possessed by them and to reduce their persons to perpetual slavery, and to apply and appropriate to himself and his successors the kingdoms, dukedoms, counties, principalities, dominions, possessions, and goods, and to convert them to his and their use and profit – by having secured the said faculty, the said King Alfonso, or, by his authority, the aforesaid infante, justly and lawfully has acquired and possessed, and doth possess, these islands, lands, harbors, and seas, and they do of right belong and pertain to the said King Alfonso and his successors, nor without special license from King Alfonso and his successors themselves has any other even of the faithful of Christ been entitled hitherto, nor is he by any means now entitled lawfully to meddle therewith – in order that King Alfonso himself and his successors and the infante.may be able the more zealously to pursue and may pursue this most pious and noble work, and most worthy of perpetual remembrance (which, since the salvation of souls, increase of the faith, and overthrow of its enemies may be procured thereby, we regard as a work wherein the glory of God, and faith in Him, and His commonwealth, the Universal Church, are concerned) in proportion as they, having been relieved of all the greater obstacles, shall find themselves supported by us and by the Apostolic See with favors and graces – we, being very fully informed of all and singular the premises, do, motu proprio, not at the instance of King Alfonso or the infante, or on the petition of any other offered to us on their behalf in respect to this matter, and after mature deliberation, by apostolic authority, and from certain knowledge, in the fullness of apostolic power, by the tenor of these presents decree and declare that the aforesaid letters of faculty (the tenor whereof we wish to be considered as inserted word for word in these presents, with all and singular the clauses therein contained) are extended to Ceuta and to the aforesaid and all other acquisitions whatsoever, even those acquired before the date of the said letters of faculty, and to all those provinces, islands, harbors, and seas whatsoever, which hereafter, in the name of the said King Alfonso and of his successors and of the infante, in those parts and the adjoining, and in the more distant and remote parts, can be acquired from the hands of infidels or pagans, and that they are comprehended under the said letters of faculty.”
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stanley123
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Not true. I think I showed where Dum diversa allowed slavery, and I quoted from Romanus Pontifex:
We [therefore] weighing all and singular the premises with due meditation, and noting that since we had formerly by other letters of ours granted among other things free and ample faculty to the aforesaid King Alfonso – to invade, search out, capture, vanquish, and subdue all Saracens and pagans whatsoever, and other enemies of Christ wheresoever placed, and the kingdoms, dukedoms, principalities, dominions, possessions, and all movable and immovable goods whatsoever held and possessed by them and to reduce their persons to perpetual slavery, and to apply and appropriate to himself and his successors the kingdoms, dukedoms, counties, principalities, dominions, possessions, and goods, and to convert them to his and their use and profit – by having secured the said faculty, the said King Alfonso, or, by his authority, the aforesaid infante, justly and lawfully has acquired and possessed, and doth possess, these islands, lands, harbors, and seas, and they do of right belong and pertain to the said King Alfonso and his successors, nor without special license from King Alfonso and his successors themselves has any other even of the faithful of Christ been entitled hitherto, nor is he by any means now entitled lawfully to meddle therewith – in order that King Alfonso himself and his successors and the infante.may be able the more zealously to pursue and may pursue this most pious and noble work, and most worthy of perpetual remembrance (which, since the salvation of souls, increase of the faith, and overthrow of its enemies may be procured thereby, we regard as a work wherein the glory of God, and faith in Him, and His commonwealth, the Universal Church, are concerned) in proportion as they, having been relieved of all the greater obstacles, shall find themselves supported by us and by the Apostolic See with favors and graces – we, being very fully informed of all and singular the premises, do, motu proprio, not at the instance of King Alfonso or the infante, or on the petition of any other offered to us on their behalf in respect to this matter, and after mature deliberation, by apostolic authority, and from certain knowledge, in the fullness of apostolic power, by the tenor of these presents decree and declare that the aforesaid letters of faculty (the tenor whereof we wish to be considered as inserted word for word in these presents, with all and singular the clauses therein contained) are extended to Ceuta and to the aforesaid and all other acquisitions whatsoever, even those acquired before the date of the said letters of faculty, and to all those provinces, islands, harbors, and seas whatsoever, which hereafter, in the name of the said King Alfonso and of his successors and of the infante, in those parts and the adjoining, and in the more distant and remote parts, can be acquired from the hands of infidels or pagans, and that they are comprehended under the said letters of faculty.
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stanley123
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However, was it not started by the suggestion of the Roman Catholic bishop of Chiapas, Bartolomé de Las Casas. who was praised in the book that you were recommending as a scholarly source?
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Al_Masetti
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Could you describe slavery (including white slaves) as carried on by African Muslims.
And also derive the word “slave”.
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stanley123
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According to the following site:
religioustolerance.org/chr_slav1.htm#supp
“Pope Nicholas V wrote Dum Diversas which granted to the kings of Spain and Portugal the right to reduce any “Saracens [Muslims] and pagans and any other unbelievers” to perpetual slavery.”
religioustolerance.org/chr_slav1.htm#supp
“Pope Nicholas V wrote Dum Diversas which granted to the kings of Spain and Portugal the right to reduce any “Saracens [Muslims] and pagans and any other unbelievers” to perpetual slavery.”
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stanley123
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According to the site referred to in the previous post:
**595 CE: **Pope Gregory dispatched a priest to Britain to purchase Pagan boys to work as slaves on church estates.
**595 CE: **Pope Gregory dispatched a priest to Britain to purchase Pagan boys to work as slaves on church estates.
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stanley123
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See:pedia.nodeworks.com/P/PA/PAP/Papal_bull
Dum diversas, 1452 - Pope Nicholas V (authorizing Alfonso V of Portugal enslave infidels in West Africa)
Dum diversas, 1452 - Pope Nicholas V (authorizing Alfonso V of Portugal enslave infidels in West Africa)
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stanley123
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Check out the 33 page article from Yale University on slavery, by professor Sweet:
“The first transnational, institutional endorsement of African slavery occurred in 1452 when Pope Nicholas V issued the bull Dum Diversas, which granted King Afonso V or Portugal the right to reduce to “perpetual slavery” all Saracens and pagans and other infidels and enemies of Christ” in West Africa."
yale.edu/glc/events/race/Sweet.pdf
You are trying to avoid the issue here which is that the Pope, Pope Nicholas V, has given his endorsement to the perpetual enslavement of a group of people in West Africa.
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michaelmac
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Hi All,i thought slavery was banned in the west for at least one 100 years , a Question how do you stamp out slavery when the Vatican or any one in i refuses to get rid off those priests ,brothers and nuns , who were involved in child slavery ,up to 1996 yours michaelmac
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