Slavonic : Is It Important?

[Cluny]

Does anyone feel Slavonic is an obstacle to evangelization ?

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Ss Cyril and Methodius didn’t when they began their evangelization of the Slavs, but that’s why they translated things into Slavonic.

The advantage that Slavonic had/has is that it mutually comprehensible to speakers of various Slavic languages (or so I’ve been told), and like Latin, not limited to any one place.

Until vernacular Slavic languages were more developed and stabilized, it was also a literary language.

 

[Patchunky]

Does anyone feel Slavonic is an obstacle to evangelization ?

No more than Latin would be

 

[Patchunky]

You mention Hungarian and that kind of stirs my curiosity. A good number of years ago, a Ruthenian priest-friend of mind (who is Slavic and is excellent in Old Slavonic and speaks several Slavic languages fluently) was temporarily assigned to fill-in at a Magyar parish. Of course didn’t speak a word of Magyar and I recall him saying he had one heck of a time for the first couple of weeks. He ended up having to do the Liturgy in staroslavenski (which he loves anyway) until the cantor (I think it was) was able to teach him to read and pronounce Magyar. (And in the process he learned to speak a little of it too.)

Yeah, I know Anyway, the upshot of that boring little story is that, from what he said, the Old Slavonic was his idea because he couldn’t do it in Magyar and had no other choice. And I always thought that the Hungarians used Magyar for liturgical purposes, so his tale of woe didn’t come as a big surprise. It’s kind of a tangent to the topic, but does anyone know the traditional (as opposed to post-conciliar) Magyar custom?

I attended Paska Divine Liturgy at a Hungarian parish when visiting relatives one year. The did not use any OCS at all. It was all in Hungarian and it was beautiful as well…

 

[Patchunky]

Wow. No need to yell. For what it’s worth, my husband doesn’t even have a “bark-o-lounger”, and if you entered his private residence, he’d be within his rights to call the police anyway.

As for people going elsewhere, yes, they do. because they are confused by the Slavonic parts of the liturgy (the majority of the liturgy is in English), and they feel out of place as it is, when we have Roman-rite visitors who are interested in the Eastern Rite.

Is it any wonder our small Byzantine community has ten households, tops, in its rolls? The Divine Liturgy is foreign to most Roman rite Catholics; many are hungering for something deeper than the Ordinary Form of the mass, so they hesitantly come in, having heard of a different kind of liturgy. The Latin Mass bewilders them because most people do not speak Latin.

But hearing a foreign language inserted into a liturgy that one is trying to follow does not help. Perhaps if there were a note in the bulletin about “some parts of our liturgy are chanted in the old Slavonic”, so people knew what was going on. It doesn’t help that our “wonderful” parish council president is a blowhard who makes people feel as if they need to learn Slavonic to be Eastern Rite. Or dismisses anybody who isn’t Hungarian.

Traditions are wonderful things. But it’s better if those traditions reach out and help people feel included, not excluded.

So if he’s a “blowhard” (your words) what does that make you?

You’re coming into a church that is NOT yours and demanding that they change something because YOU don’t understand it.

Did you even TRY or ASK to learn?

Doesn’t sound like it…

Tradition is what you obvisously came looking for but when it wasn’t YOUR tradition you dismiss it… what a shame…

 

[Seamus_L]

Didn’t mean to sound like I was disparaging the use of Slavonic, Aramis. It’s just that on a few forums I’ve heard comments about the Ruthenian Rite dying out if it doesn’t evangelise and get new members very soon. I’m not implying that Slavonic stands in the way, I’m just repeating what I’ve heard.

 

[Aramis]

Didn’t mean to sound like I was disparaging the use of Slavonic, Aramis. It’s just that on a few forums I’ve heard comments about the Ruthenian Rite dying out if it doesn’t evangelise and get new members very soon. I’m not implying that Slavonic stands in the way, I’m just repeating what I’ve heard.

Let’s see… average attendance at St. Nick: 50 on sunday.
Number of those under age 18: about 20.

And, since V II, the impediments to “going east” without leaving the Catholic Union having been lifted, the growth area is likely to be folks like myself. Latin in upbringing, but not benefiting spiritually from Latin praxis.

Slavonic is not going to be of benefit in that. Those wanting the “Magic words in the magic language” go TLMing.

 

[dvdjs]

So if he’s a “blowhard” (your words) what does that make you?

You’re coming into a church that is NOT yours and demanding that they change something because YOU don’t understand it.

Did you even TRY or ASK to learn?

Doesn’t sound like it…

Tradition is what you obvisously came looking for but when it wasn’t YOUR tradition you dismiss it… what a shame…

Patchunky,
Why don’t you try reading what samcarter14 actually said? There were no demands. And if that the singing nearly stops when Slavonic is used, then it’s pretty clear that that parish has not maintained a tradition of singing in Slavonic.

Is that a shame? Perhaps. (But, did SS Cyrill Methodius think it is a shame to lose the Greek language tradition among Slavs?) Should the parish work to revive Slavonic singing? Perhaps, but that is for the priest and parishioners at that parish to figure out.

It may be that with only ten families that parish feels the need to remove potential barriers to recruiting new people. The suggestions of a note in the bulletin, and text inserts were good ones that did not mean elimination of Slavonic singing. But a failure to adopt an posture that emphasizes recruitment could mean the end of such a small parish and thus the end of all singing. Again, the people of that parish will have to figure out what is best in their own circumstances. And as one of the families, who is contributing to life at that parish, samcarter14 and family do and should have a voice in this matter.

Finally: is the parish council president a “blowhard”? Hmmm… being dismissive of non-hungarian (of all things) ethnicity in our churches. Yep, I think that’s a fair assessment.

djs

 

[Formosus]

I have a deep appreciation for the Liturgy in any language. I think that primarily vernacular language is the best way to go, BUT using bits of Slavonic as well, or whatever the traditional language of the ritual church is ( such as greek/arabic for melkites, syriac for syrians, coptic for copts, etc etc). I especially find that chant settings flow much smoother in their original language then they do in a translation, not saying that all the songs have to be in the original language though : p . To further clarify, chants that are chants multiple times would be a good choice for using some slavonic (such as the the Thrice Holy Hymn or the Cherubic Hymn), or perhaps as a communion song? Common prayers that everyone knows or can recognize upon hearing (like the Glory to …).

 

[samcarter14]

So if he’s a “blowhard” (your words) what does that make you?

You’re coming into a church that is NOT yours and demanding that they change something because YOU don’t understand it.

Did you even TRY or ASK to learn?

Doesn’t sound like it…

Tradition is what you obvisously came looking for but when it wasn’t YOUR tradition you dismiss it… what a shame…

We’re not demanding anything. When my husband mentions the Slavonic is distracting, it’s at home, to me, not to the priest or anybody at the church. We are well aware that we are newcomers (attending for a year now), and while we know the general form of the Divine Liturgy we’re still learning how to follow along in the liturgical book—which, by the way, while approved by and published by our Eparchy, does not include the Slavonic at all. Only English. Those who sing the Slavonic do it entirely from memory. The individual who is most interested in us using Slavonic has yet to bring in Slavonic texts to help us learn it!

We have no interest in changing anything in the church. The OP asked if Slavonic was important. To myself, a non-Slavonic speaking individual in a parish with no Slavonic texts to help learn the language, no, it’s not. Is it important to the heritage of the faith? Probably. I’m just a dumb English-speaking American, after all.

We have learned how to say “Slava vo’ viki”, for what it is worth.

 

[samcarter14]

Does anyone feel Slavonic is an obstacle to evangelization ?

I think it can be. I have seen people come to our church for Divine Liturgy, but if the cantor uses a lot of Slavonic (no, she does not repeat the prayer after the English translation, either, she uses it in place of the English), they do not return. Some of these people are, I’m sure, devout Catholics of the Roman Rite who are looking for a deeper, more traditional liturgy than they are finding in the OF Mass, but the Latin Mass is hard for them to understand.

Now, if our books had the Slavonic alongside the English, or even if our liturgical books had explanations of why we use Slavonic, I think that the language would not be a barrier. However, such is not the case. Our Eparchy has approved liturgical books without the Slavonic, and we are to be obedient to the Eparchy.

 

[malphono]

There seems to be a leitmotif in this thread saying that it is commendable for us to abandon our own traditional liturgical languages in order to accommodate those people fleeing the OF as it is commonly done. I’m sorry, but I just don’t buy that. As I see it, the use of Old Slavonic or any other venerable liturgical language should, IMHO, never be considered an “obstacle” to anything.

Yes, I know there are Latin Rite “OF people” who are searching for “more” and have a mortal fear of the EF for a variety of reasons, including that it is done in Latin, which causes some look East. We all know, as well, that there are also those disgruntled Latin Rite “EF people” who “fled to the East” for the opposite reason, but now that the EF is more freely available, many have gone back “home” so-to-speak. Either way, it seems to me that “looking East through Latin Rite eyes” (whether EF eyes or OF eyes) is not the best motivation.

In the US there is a general fear of “foreign tongues” and I have never been able to understand why. I find it very interesting, though, that while that fear has been around the US for ages, it never manifested itself in the Church until the post-conciliar liturgical free-for-all began.

Prior to that time, just as the Latin Rite used Latin, the various Eastern and Oriental Churches used their own proper liturgical language, in some cases exclusively while in others it was often traditional to mix it with one or more other languages. Either way, there was no “obstacle” or problem. Frankly I do not see any reason for that to change.

 

[Patchunky]

Our Eparchy has approved liturgical books without the Slavonic, and we are to be obedient to the Eparchy.

But, your Eparchy DID NOT BAN the use of Old Church Slavonic so get used to it…

It’s time we took back our traditions and stop letting others tell us what to do because they don’t like what we’re doing!

Oh, BTW, Old Church Slavonic is not the “vernacular” as you stated earlier. It was written EXPRESSLY for the Divine Liturgy and is one of the 4 official languages of the Church.

 

[samcarter14]

But, your Eparchy DID NOT BAN the use of Old Church Slavonic so get used to it…

It’s time we took back our traditions and stop letting others tell us what to do because they don’t like what we’re doing!

Oh, BTW, Old Church Slavonic is not the “vernacular” as you stated earlier. It was written EXPRESSLY for the Divine Liturgy and is one of the 4 official languages of the Church.

Where on earth in any of my posts have I stated I’m telling my church what to do? If they start using Old Church Slavonic throughout the entire Liturgy, I still wouldn’t be telling them to stop. I have never once gone to my church, or priest, and said, “You need to stop using Slavonic in the liturgy.” I haven’t said ONE WORD to the cantor, or the guy who thinks Hungarians rule and anybody who isn’t is a substandard Ruthenian.

The OP asked if it’s important. To me, personally, it’s not. But if our church used it, we wouldn’t raise a stink. We love our church, and can’t imagine worshipping anywhere else. If Slavonic were used 100 percent of the time, I would work on learning it. Right now it’s used probably 20 percent of the time, and over time I’m sure I’ll pick up on how to sing “Holy God, Holy and Mighty…” in Slavonic.

You are reading way more into my posts than I am stating. I understand the place Old Slavonic has in the church tradition, and I respect it. I also wanted to point out that unless there is context offered (or classes!) for those who are not native speakers of Slavonic, it can indeed be an obstacle to evangelization. If you want it as part of your tradition, then present it properly, don’t just drop it into the liturgy and expect those who don’t know what it is or understand it to just roll with it without some education.

Again, tell me where I said, in any of my posts, that my church should change anything in regards to their use of Slavonic.

 

[Seamus_L]

Was there much opposition to the elimination of Slavonic in Eastern Parishes ? My apologies if I’m in error, but my understanding was that the Ukrainian churches replaced it with Ukrainian in the 60’s, while the Ruthenian Rite gradually switched to English in a number of churches.

 

[Diak]

It has never been completely removed in Ukrainian parishes. We sing several things in Slavonic, especially during Lent, Holy Week, Pascha, etc. Some parishes take quite a bit for daily Divine Liturgies. I will say while in the UGCC I have never been warned not to use Slavonic as I was while cantoring on occasion for a BCCA parish. That was a shame since the parish had people who still knew the Slavonic melodies and would sing them quite robustly when given the chance.

 

[malphono]

It has never been completely removed in Ukrainian parishes. We sing several things in Slavonic, especially during Lent, Holy Week, Pascha, etc. Some parishes take quite a bit for daily Divine Liturgies. I will say while in the UGCC I have never been warned not to use Slavonic as I was while cantoring on occasion for a BCCA parish. That was a shame since the parish had people who still knew the Slavonic melodies and would sing them quite robustly when given the chance.

That’s interesting. I had been under the impression that the UGCC abandoned Old Slavonic totally. Maybe this is a silly question, but do UGCC clergy ever use Old Slavonic? Or is its residual use only in the congregation?

 

[rememberme]

I attend a Ukrainain Catholic Parish and love going to the Old Salvonic Liturgy. It still gives me the chills to hear the older gentlemen chant the Creed, same as when I was younger and you can actually follow along with the Liturgy and teach yourself a bit of the responses if you listen and practice enough. I’m a clod with languages and I managed it

 

[Aramis]

Was there much opposition to the elimination of Slavonic in Eastern Parishes ? My apologies if I’m in error, but my understanding was that the Ukrainian churches replaced it with Ukrainian in the 60’s, while the Ruthenian Rite gradually switched to English in a number of churches.

It varied widely from parish to parish.

St. Nick’s, only a few lament it…
… and even they do so only mildly.

But we had a pastor who did speak it, and noted that we couldn’t pronounce it correctly (tho’ he noted privately than a few of us were “close enough”), and since we had no native speakers, few slavic speakers, and almost everyone speaks english, in accord with the ancient canons, the liturgy should be done in the language of the parish… English.

After his tenure, use of Slavonic pretty much died. 4 of us sang the slavonic verse used a couple months ago.

 

[kitkatty]

You mention Hungarian and that kind of stirs my curiosity. A good number of years ago, a Ruthenian priest-friend of mind (who is Slavic and is excellent in Old Slavonic and speaks several Slavic languages fluently) was temporarily assigned to fill-in at a Magyar parish. Of course didn’t speak a word of Magyar and I recall him saying he had one heck of a time for the first couple of weeks. He ended up having to do the Liturgy in staroslavenski (which he loves anyway) until the cantor (I think it was) was able to teach him to read and pronounce Magyar. (And in the process he learned to speak a little of it too.)

Yeah, I know Anyway, the upshot of that boring little story is that, from what he said, the Old Slavonic was his idea because he couldn’t do it in Magyar and had no other choice. And I always thought that the Hungarians used Magyar for liturgical purposes, so his tale of woe didn’t come as a big surprise. It’s kind of a tangent to the topic, but does anyone know the traditional (as opposed to post-conciliar) Magyar custom?

Hi Malphono, I grew up in a Hungarian parish and we had two liturgies one English and one Hungarian . Sam Carters`s post had me a little confused too mentioning the Slavonic in a Hungarian parish.

 

[Cluny]

Several people here have mentioned Ukrainian as a language.

I attended a Ukrainian Catholic parish which used Ukrainian, and found it just enough like Slavonic to keep tripping me up, especially with longer texts such as the Lord’s Prayer.

Aside from its importance as a primary source for services in honor of Slavic saints, Slavonic is also useful for resolving certain ambiguities in Greek texts.