Slippery slope: Eastern Orthodoxy on contraception

[Vonsalza]

@Vonsalza made the point earlier in the thread that such teachings don’t work anymore because we’re 8 billion now, but I don’t believe fundamental objections can be overruled by pragmatic considerations or circumstances.

You’re absolutely right. So first step is that the “fundamental” label has to be first removed for a long enough duration that no one has living memory of that incremental change.

But maybe Catholicism will refuse to concede its stance on artificial contraception. As such, it’ll dwindle down as it’s currently dwindling in the paved and air-conditioned world.

But that won’t be the end of Christianity. Most Christian groups are fine with it. Some evangelicals are staunch proponents of regular “relations” as a key to a happy marriage - the notion that you won’t also be risking additional children through some form of BC is just assumed.

But to be frank - the monolithic “Catholic View” on artificial contraception is held as fundamental by relatively few people who label themselves “Catholic”, as you wisely pointed out.

I bet if the RCC rolled out the welcome mats for it, the number of returning “prodigals” would vastly out-measure the few hundred thousand you’d lose the the Sedes and similar groups.

But enough of that - this all just relates to the idea that religions incapable of change eventually get read about in history class rather than in “Current World Religions”. Orthodoxy shows more adaptability than the RCC in this regard. Pretty much every other Christian sect does.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

You know @Vonsalza, you speak about the Church not allowing contraceptives, and that’s what’s causing Churches to close. Well, to counteract that, I kindly point you to every single frikin Protestant denomination on the planets, which are closing in far greater number than Catholicism.

But… oh my, what’s this? They all allow contraceptives. Why, shouldn’t they be thriving?? LE GASP /sarcasm.

We are going through a purge at the moment. Churches are closing because people who don’t actually believe as The Church believes are leaving in droves. It is sad for them, I pity them and pray that they will not be lost. However, The Church isn’t going to pretend there’s no objectivity morality to these things in order to keep butts in the seats. We may wind up with only a handful of faithful Catholics left in the entire world, but that won’t make the Church wrong, and it won’t force her to change her positions.

 

[Carmel]

But enough of that - this all just relates to the idea that religions incapable of change eventually get read about in history class rather than in “Current World Religions”. Orthodoxy shows more adaptability than the RCC in this regard. Pretty much every other Christian sect does.

My understanding of the traditional Catholic teaching on the relationship between wife and husband is that their relationship mirrors the life of the Blessed Trinity which is life-giving
wheras contraceptives are intended toprevent life , so the Church has always taught that contraceptives are intrinsically evil. There is a story in the Bible about a man called Onan who avoided (name removed by moderator)regnating his wife, who was struck dead by God.

 

[Vonsalza]

You know @Vonsalza, you speak about the Church not allowing contraceptives, and that’s what’s causing Churches to close. Well, to counteract that, I kindly point you to every single frikin Protestant denomination on the planets, which are closing in far greater number than Catholicism.

Well, it depends on how you define “protestant”. Pentecostals and Charismatics (a lot of overlap there) are experiencing meteoric growth. And usually the most rigid interpretation commonly found among them is “Well, I don’t like it. But it’s a personal decision”.

We are going through a purge at the moment.

This “moment” has been multi-generational and continues to the present, but I won’t belabor.

However, The Church isn’t going to pretend there’s no objectivity morality to these things in order to keep butts in the seats.

I understand. Living religions have the difficult task of both rooting to the past, but also being relevant.

Time will tell how any religion does.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Perhaps your experience differs, but the only non-Catholic groups I’ve seen growing in my area are non-denominationals that place no restrictions on… well… anything. They’re just feel-good churches, not too far removed from your Health and Wealth types.

My Parish, a very orthodox, faithful parish, has also been experiencing growth. All the faithful parishes in my area have. I think a lot of it comes down to geography. In the coastal (and more liberal) areas, I agree, Churches are dying. However, in more conservative areas, they seem to be growing. And the more faithful, and rigid, they area; the more their priest preaches on the fundamental moral issues; the better they seem to do.

The Church in the West is getting smaller, I wouldn’t even think of denying that; but the West isn’t the whole world.

Time will certainly tell, but I have no doubt whatsoever that the Church will be here till the end of time.

 

[Vonsalza]

Perhaps your experience differs, but the only non-Catholic groups I’ve seen growing in my area…

I just refer to global figures. Sure, the local variances are endless. Some Catholic Churches are even growing in some places! I think there might even be an Episcopal Church in Chicago that’s in a big growth spurt.

Time will certainly tell, but I have no doubt whatsoever that the Church will be here till the end of time.

I agree. Christianity might be “too big to fail”. But I’m not sure that applies to any one branch of it.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I don’t know where you’re getting your global figures from then, because the ones I’ve seen show significant growth in the African and Asian continents.

They do show significant decline in Europe and North America, but South America seems to be remaining fairly steady.

I agree. Christianity might be “too big to fail”. But I’m not sure that applies to any one branch of it.

No, I’m pretty sure that at teh end, the only recognizably-Christian group left will be the Catholic Church. I’m no psychic, but Christ promised the Church to be with Her till the end of time, so She’s not going anywhere.

 

[twf]

Yes, the Latin Church did (and still does in certain special cases) ordain married men to the priesthood… I would say the “economy” aspect would factor into married priests having relations with their wives. Wasn’t the ancient ideal to remain continent after ordination?

 

[twf]

Well, to counteract that, I kindly point you to every single frikin Protestant denomination on the planets, which are closing in far greater number than Catholicism.

Many Pentecostal and Evangelical groups are growing like wildfire…especially in traditionally Catholic regions such as Latin America… and they typically do allow contraception.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Well, even if they are, it doesn’t make them right. I’d much rather be in a small religion that’s correct than a large religion that’s wrong.

 

[ATraveller]

There are some religions that haven’t adapted to the world that still exist. The Amish still exist, more specifically, their Mennonite/Anabaptist tradition and they continue to grow.

 

[twf]

I didn’t say that they were. I just meant that you can’t factually say that all Protestant groups are shrinking at a faster rate than Catholicism. I assume you had the “mainline” denominations in mind.

 

[commenter]

ProdglArchitect:

Well, to counteract that, I kindly point you to every single frikin Protestant denomination on the planets, which are closing in far greater number than Catholicism.

Many Pentecostal and Evangelical groups are growing like wildfire…especially in traditionally Catholic regions such as Latin America… and they typically do allow contraception.

They were growing like wildfire a few decades ago. Not so much now.

In the last 20 years or so, all the new growth seems to be non denominationals, that have hardly real Evangelical or Pentecostal doctrine at all, even if they identify Charismatic. They are community centers.

Some churches that had accepted contraception have now gone on to accept abortion and gay marriage, and whatever else the secular culture serves up.

Still others who had accepted contraception are reconsidering that position.

 

[QwertyGirl]

Many contraceptives are also abortafacient ( they cause the uterus to reject ( hence abort ) the fertilised egg. Hence there is an early stage abortion .

There are plenty of other methods that don’t do this, if it is of concern.

 

[laylow]

Oh that’s certainly not the reason, because countless Catholics use contraceptives in spite of the Church’s injunction, don’t confess it and still go to Communion. Whether that’s good or bad is a different discussion, but it makes it quite clear that it’s not the Church’s stance on contraceptives that’s “driving people away”.

It may be one of a number of reasons, but I agree from my experience it is not an overriding factor. It don’t know if I’ve known a single modern “catholic” who hasn’t used birth control at all. And for the ones that only have a few kids, I mean does “Natural Family Planning” really work that well?

 

[Augustinian]

And for the ones that only have a few kids, I mean does “Natural Family Planning” really work that well?

Couples are getting married at older ages nowadays, how many children would you expect from a couple who gets married at 38 or 40 or older? There is a biological clock you know, a woman married at 19 has a lot more child bearing years ahead of them.

 

[Vonsalza]

No it doesn’t. Results that make it comparable to birth control are extremely cherry-picked.

Young girls, clock-work cycles, so on.

 

[Yeoman]

It’s why they’ll ordain married priests.

It looks like you’re saying that the Orthodox started ordaining married priests out of a sense of “economy” at some point, thus abandoning celibacy as a requirement. I don’t think that’s what happened. I think it went the other way aorund: it used to be okay for both RC & EO priests to be married. The RC church changed her mind about that, the EO simply didn’t.

As a minor historical note, that’s not why the Orthodox will ordain married men to the Priesthood (economy). Nor is it why the Eastern Rite of the Catholic church does. Ordination of married men was common in the East and the West at one time. The Latin Rite prevented it when there was beginning to become an inherited Priesthood. Preventing the ordination of married men nipped that in the bud when it was a problem.

FWIW, in my view, as a fairly conservative Catholic, that’s also why I think that the time has come to restore the ability to ordain married men in the Latin Rite. The original problem that rule sought to address, has long been addressed, and the newer, post WWII problem is the disordered inclinations in the Priesthood (or at least it was, a person can argue it’s been addressed etc.). While I know that people will say “married men also. . .” fill in terrible sin here, allowing married men to be ordained does at least partially address the problem of dis-orded inclinations.

 

[JSRG]

I’m less sure about that. While all the attention about the abuse scandal is on the Catholic Church (which to some extent makes sense, it is the largest Christian denomination and its centralized authority makes it easier to keep track of frequency), I’m not sure Protestant churches are necessarily better (see Report: Protestant Church Insurers Handle 260 Sex Abuse Cases a Year for possible evidence on this), and public schools certainly have a lot of sexual abuse problems. But Protestant churches and public schools have no celibacy requirement.

That said, there is a problem that allowing married priests would solve, and that’s the shortage of priests many areas are experiencing.

 

[MichaelP3]

There are plenty of other methods that don’t do this, if it is of concern.

Yea I am confused why that point keeps popping up in these discussions.

It is more of a “well we are not sounding realistic at the moment” so “let’s try another angle”.