Slippery slope: Eastern Orthodoxy on contraception

[QwertyGirl]

Yes, I have noticed this too. It really has nothing to do with the issue. There are plenty of artificial birth control methods, including sterilization, that don’t involve the concern as stated. I decided I will point that out from now on when I see this as explanation for why artificial birth control is such an evil.

 

[dochawk]

Ordination of married men was common in the East and the West at one time.

Mandatory, in fact, for some.

I don’t know if it’s still the case, but the Russian church used to only ordain married men for the parish (while their monks were obviously unmarried). One of their saints is known for marrying a young man while all but on her deathbed, so that he could be ordained . . .

hawk

 

[MichaelP3]

their Mennonite/Anabaptist tradition and they continue to grow.

And the Mennonites I know who run an English school in Poland even use contraception. One can say they still sit in the dark but they managed to find the light in other places.

(With the dark they really just cover their hair and don’t show much skin and also will not dance or drink alcohol (actually not forbidden, they just don’t want to do it). Other than that they are pretty much the same)

 

[MichaelP3]

There is a story in the Bible about a man called Onan who avoided (name removed by moderator)regnating his wife, who was struck dead by God.

The story of Onan is not about contraception. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible about contraception being evil.

 

[Carmel]

Pope Benedict had told us to prepare for a lower membership Church. There are stories in the Bible to illustrate the fact that numbers are not the issue, since we know that " the battle belongs to the Lord " Its always better to be " on the side of the angels "

 

[MichaelP3]

It’s either that or a group of men who are not supposed to have any realistic experience in this department just making the decisions for them.

I fail to see that as a better option.

 

[MichaelP3]

Makes sense but you do realise probably every other denomination thinks the same thing?

 

[Carmel]

The story of Onan is not about contraception. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible about contraception being evil.

Juda and Shela weren’t punished like Onan was, even though God, who knew their hearts, knew their actions produced the same end results. Onan had relations with Thamar and deliberately avoided conception taking place .

 

[Vonsalza]

Yes, you’re the second behind Roguish to correct me on the point on married priests. I stand corrected.

But I’ll not retract the actual point being made that the eastern Church, in so much as I’ve read about and personally dealt with her, is more gracious in their economy.

 

[Vonsalza]

As I’ve wondered elsewhere in these forums, it would have been great had Moses been a bit more specific about Onans sin.

Was it casting his seed on the ground?
Failing to uphold his cultural obligation to give his brother’s estate an heir?
Failing to deposit his seed in the correct orifice?
(Related but still different from the first)

What, precisely, was his disobedience?

@meltzerboy2 what do your people say it was? You guys wrote it, after all…

 

[Carmel]

Thamar was a predecessor of Christ. Onan was intended to produce progeny through her.
Instead he spilled his seed on the ground. Since the seed carries the life within it, Onan showed contempt for what was intended to be holy.

 

[alice24]

Today we have also unmarried parish priests, but very few. I know a parish where a monk priest is the parish priest, but maybe this in in Germany a number of 10 percent at all…
It mainly occurs here in parishes where mostly german converts form the community and the position of the priest’s wife is for this reason less known than in Russia.

 

[commenter]

Some things are really independent, and we can change or drop it without affecting other aspects of doctrine or morality. Contraception is different.

It is embedded in the Natural Law. The removal of this part of the Natural Law impacts on abortion, gay marriage, and many other things.

The house of cards doesn’t collapse at once. A woman accepts the right to contraception, but not abortion. Her daughter accepts the right to abortion under certain conditions. The next generation goes farther down that, and other dark roads.

 

[Yeoman]

I’m less sure about that. While all the attention about the abuse scandal is on the Catholic Church (which to some extent makes sense, it is the largest Christian denomination and its centralized authority makes it easier to keep track of frequency), I’m not sure Protestant churches are necessarily better (see Report: Protestant Church Insurers Handle 260 Sex Abuse Cases a Year for possible evidence on this), and public schools certainly have a lot of sexual abuse problems. But Protestant churches and public schools have no celibacy requirement.

That said, there is a problem that allowing married priests would solve, and that’s the shortage of priests many areas are experiencing.

Your points are absolutely correct. Other faiths receive little attention on this issue, which is an interesting argument for how respective Faiths are regarded from the outside. When we Catholics fail, we’re held to account, as we should be, but that’s because we really matter and we’re held to be the holders of the real standard from the outside, an interesting concession of our opponents to some degree.

And school teachers have the highest abuse rate in this area, and recently some of the examples have been simply brazen.

But as we are held, rightfully, to the highest standard, and as we should strive to uphold it, we have to concede, like it or not, that a certain homosexual culture had inserted itself in the Priesthood at some level and beyond that a rather effeminate one otherwise exists. The most manly, if you will, of our recent Priests in our area have tended to be foreign born from the third world.

I know that somebody will point out that “hetrosexual men. . .” have no more higher abuse rate than this or that, but irrespective of that argument and how valid or invalid it may be, part of the problem we’ve had is a culture of inside homosexual conduct that’s been self excused by those committing acts and hidden by confederates. I know that there will be those who absolutely deny that, but it’s the simple truth. Having married men as priests with more natural inclinations may not wipe out all abuse, but it does go along ways towards not having a secret subset of those with disordered inclinations who are reinforcing each other in denial of the problems associated with that.

 

[Yeoman]

Mandatory, in fact, for some.

I don’t know if it’s still the case, but the Russian church used to only ordain married men for the parish (while their monks were obviously unmarried). One of their saints is known for marrying a young man while all but on her deathbed, so that he could be ordained . . .

hawk

I knew that Orthodox priest at the parish level are almost always married, but I wasn’t aware that it had ever been a requirement in any branch of Orthodoxy for parish priests. Very interesting.

 

[Yeoman]

But I’ll not retract the actual point being made that the eastern Church, in so much as I’ve read about and personally dealt with her, is more gracious in their economy.

Well, that’s an subjective opinion that others could argue and counter and indeed, I’m sure others seeking to debate that could.

It’d probably aid the debate, however, to define what you man by “economy” as in English it doesn’t quite appear to have the meaning you are giving it, so the statement is confusing. Economics usually deal with finances at all levels, personal up to national and even international, so I think it’s likely that we’re missing your meaning.

 

[Yeoman]

Today we have also unmarried parish priests, but very few. I know a parish where a monk priest is the parish priest, but maybe this in in Germany a number of 10 percent at all…
It mainly occurs here in parishes where mostly german converts form the community and the position of the priest’s wife is for this reason less known than in Russia.

I think in the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church this is now the case as well, even though it wasn’t at one time. There was for a long time a mistaken policy in North America discouraging that, but that’s no longer the case.

I heard a Byzantine Catholic Priest mention this as he’s not married and he notes that his parishoners are a bit baffled by that.

 

[Yeoman]

Some things are really independent, and we can change or drop it without affecting other aspects of doctrine or morality. Contraception is different.

It is embedded in the Natural Law. The removal of this part of the Natural Law impacts on abortion, gay marriage, and many other things.

The house of cards doesn’t collapse at once. A woman accepts the right to contraception, but not abortion. Her daughter accepts the right to abortion under certain conditions. The next generation goes farther down that, and other dark roads.

Indeed, we live in a really weird era where, in the West, we demand that everything should be “all natural”, except for ourselves.

In an era in which people worry about everything being “all natural”, we ourselves are working on being as unnatural as possible.

 

[Vonsalza]

It’d probably aid the debate, however, to define what you man by “economy” as in English it doesn’t quite appear to have the meaning you are giving it, so the statement is confusing. Economics usually deal with finances at all levels, personal up to national and even international, so I think it’s likely that we’re missing your meaning.

Charitably, it’s just something you’ve not covered in your religious education.

A quick primer - Economy (religion) - Wikipedia

It was new to me once, too. I was 19 when I first ran into the idea at a Baptist Seminary, and I was a devoted Christian my entire life at that point. Not commonly covered in typical church life, I suppose.

 

[Yeoman]

It was new to me once, too. I was 19 when I first ran into the idea at a Baptist Seminary, and I was a devoted Christian my entire life at that point. Not commonly covered in typical church life, I suppose.

Ah, having now looked it up, I’m surprised that you ran into it in a Baptist seminary as it seems to be something that’s particularly emphasized by the Orthodox.

It seems that its confusing enough that a joint Orthodox and Catholic commission issued a statement on it in 1976, noting the confusion of the term, and then seemingly preferring to use the Greek term, “oikonomia” which they jointly stated “means management, arrangement, or determination in the strictly literal sense”:

http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-te...nterreligious/ecumenical/orthodox/economy.cfm

In this context this is, to people who study it, a point of difference between liberal and conservative Catholics as well as the Orthodox and Catholics. It’s an area in which Catholics will point out that the Orthodox have “developments”, pointing out the Orthodox criticism of Catholic developments fail to acknowledge that the Orthodox have their own. Here, basically, these are accommodations to human nature (which I’m putting very poorly and which do not really fully explain it, etc., and which I don’t mean to sound condescending on but rather I’m just summarizing). Those are well known to the few of us who debate these things, but the reference you provided the joint commission’s paper on it do explain it better. These are in the list of things that would need to be worked out before an end to the schism occurs in some fashion. They will be and that day will come.