Slippery slope: Eastern Orthodoxy on contraception

[Yeoman]

Thanks, by the way, for the reference. That does help clear up the meaning.

I suspect that few in any religion are aware of the background concepts to it. For example, I’m pretty sure a lot of Catholics are unaware of basic Catholic social teaching. One of the nice things about a place like this is that people get to learn of them.

 

[chessnerd321]

Carholicism’s refusal to grant even basic economy to contraception (like allowing married folks with families) is probably the greatest single factor shutting Church doors or turning them into cold, historic landmarks in the 1st world.

That’s not true. If it is, why are protestant churches also declining. The main reason Christians of all stripes are falling away is simple. Apathy and secularism.

You’re just projecting problems onto things you don’t like.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

It was new to me once, too. I was 19 when I first ran into the idea at a Baptist Seminary, and I was a devoted Christian my entire life at that point. Not commonly covered in typical church life, I suppose.

Ah, having now looked it up, I’m surprised that you ran into it in a Baptist seminary as it seems to be something that’s particularly emphasized by the Orthodox.

The wiki might have given you the impression, but the economy of grace is something you’ll get at any seminary, I’d imagine. Baptists included.

In short, your sentiment that it’s something more befitting of the Orthodox is not correct. The CCC even includes it, but I’ll not find the link for you. Just type “CCC economy” in your browser and buckle your seat belt.

 

[Yeoman]

Just type “CCC economy” in your browser and buckle your seat belt.

Okay, I’ve now done so.

Is there supposed to be something here that’s surprising or shocking to Catholics? If so, I’m failing to see what it is. It might not be something that we frequently speak about as Catholics, but the concept that there’s something wildly strange to us here may not really be warranted.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

Just type “CCC economy” in your browser and buckle your seat belt.

Okay, I’ve now done so.

Is there supposed to be something here that’s surprising or shocking to Catholics?

Nope. Just more evidence that it’s a broad Christian concept - further indicting the view that economy is limited to one particular expression of the faith - like say Orthodoxy.

 

[Yeoman]

further indicting the view that economy is limited to one particular expression of the faith - like say Orthodoxy.

Did you mean for this to read this way? I.e., “is limited to one particular expression”, or should that read “is not limited”?

 

[MichaelP3]

The question can be asked? How did Humanae Vitae argue Onan’s sin? It should be an easy Biblical case to put in the document then, right?

No, even Humanae Vitae didn’t see that and rather opted for a different “angle” known as “Natural Law”.

 

[Start]

Carmel just used an example that didn’t involve Natural Law.

 

[MichaelP3]

I am not sure you understood what I posted. Let me try and rephrase for you.

HV is THE controversial document that made the declaration final for Catholics on Contraception. It was the final argument of no return. Yet what did it say about Onan? Maybe read it…

 

[Start]

The document doesn’t need to exhaust all the arguments against contraception in order to find out it’s sinfulness.

 

[MichaelP3]

Again. That is not what I am saying.

Please just read my posts. If Onan’s sin was as it is stated, then why was it not used.

Really? It is quite easy. But reading the document will be a start. I mean us non-Catholics get told we “believe things because that is what we are told”. I am just trying to help you here so I cannot use the same argument.

Regards

 

[billsannie]

Many of these churches are in countries where fundamentalistic Islam predominates. Just how long they will be allowed to survive, much less grow, is anyone’s guess. Last I heard Pentecostals are making great inroads in South America.

 

[on_the_hill]

But the human urge to reproduce doesn’t cause overpopulation when in harmony with nature. Contraception enables.

Where’d you hear that from? There are millions of starving children in places where the “environment” cannot support a human population and their parents do not use contraception.

 

[on_the_hill]

No it doesn’t. Results that make it comparable to birth control are extremely cherry-picked.

Young girls, clock-work cycles, so on.

My wife has a PhD in engineering. She worked in a lab doing research. She knows how to keep accurate records and how to read scientific instruments. When we tried family planning methods that used body temperature to try to track her fertile times it was futile because her temps were not consistent enough to show any patterns. And we were told, “she probably didn’t keep good track of it.”

 

[billsannie]

The more honest web sites point out that in order for NFP to have results even close to artificial contraception, NFP absolutely must be carried out perfectly. As Vonsalza indicates, it takes a good number of fortuitous circumstances to make this possible. And I’ve heard numerous couples who struggle and experience great stress on those rare occasions when they feel they can have relations, not to mention the stress it puts on their marriages. Also, the necessary equipment is costly and success depends on being able to attend training sessions, both of which make it impossible for many working class and poor people. All this makes me wonder if this is really God’s will or just a misunderstanding on the part of men whose only knowledge of marriage comes from books written by other celibate men.

 

[MichaelP3]

Makes me think of the beggar I saw on the road last week (and this is not a joke) who was holding a sign reading “please help, cannot support my wife and seven children”.

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

And we were told, “she probably didn’t keep good track of it.

This is sadly all too common There’s a certain pretentious attitude present with a lot of these “instructors”. I’m sorry you both experienced that.

The more honest web sites point out that in order for NFP to have results even close to artificial contraception, NFP absolutely must be carried out perfectly. As Vonsalza indicates, it takes a good number of fortuitous circumstances to make this possible. And I’ve heard numerous couples who struggle and experience great stress on those rare occasions when they feel they can have relations, not to mention the stress it puts on their marriages. Also, the necessary equipment is costly and success depends on being able to attend training sessions, both of which make it impossible for many working class and poor people.

Quite right. And the added stress of all of it can often compound the wife’s cycle even more so. Some people are highly susceptible to stress and it affects all aspects of their health negatively. All of this makes trying to chart more difficult.

For some reason, NFP is treated like a panacea of sorts. It will fix all things! At least that seems to be the way it is taught…or at least that’s what was taught when I learned it. It’s not a panacea…it’s a huge cross actually. I’ve never heard anybody teach that!

 

[on_the_hill]

The irony is that we were actively wanting to start a family, not trying to avoid it.

 

[alice24]

Sounds familiar. My doctor finally said I should give up NFP because the stress could be a reason for us being childless.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

Results that make it comparable to birth control are extremely cherry-picked.

Not quite correct.
World Health Organization statistics showed that, correctly applied, NFP was very close to the pill