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prayerrider
Guest
I read this article just the other day and I agree 100%.
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OraLabora
Guest
in addition to what you said, eventually, dissent will settle in again. It’s human nature. A 100% dissent-free Church isn’t a Church, it is a mutual self-adoration society. The doctrines we accept did not just fall out of the sky. Theologians debated them, argued over them, and dissented from them when the final result did not go their way (Humanae Vitae comes to mind). In short they displayed every human foible known to mankind. A Church is by definition messy, otherwise as Pope Francis says it becomes self-referential.
Dissent also serves a very real purpose of forcing the Church into self-examination, and ourselves too. That is not a bad thing, it can often be a faith-building exercise, by helping us to confirm the wisdom of the doctrine that is the object of the dissent.
On the other hand it can lead to necessary change. The sex abuse scandal is just starting to cause the Church to re-examine herself, and some questioning on doctrines and disciplines will no doubt be part of this, as will questioning of the power structure of the Church. If they are not questioned, nothing will be solved.
Dissent will be with us in the Church, until we are reunited with God in heaven, and all our flaws will have been purged out of us.
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CilladeRoma
Guest
That Church has never existed, and never will, as long as we continue to be human.
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prayerrider
Guest
Best take it up with Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI. He has predicted a smaller, purified Church. I’ll go along with him.
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babochka
Guest
He did not predict a church with out public scandal nor did he predict a church in which people were 100% in agreement. You can read the full context of his prediction here.When Father Joseph Ratzinger Predicted the Future of the Church
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prayerrider
Guest
Best take it up with Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI. He has predicted a smaller, purified Church. I’ll go along with him.
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MagdalenaRita
Guest
Whew, I can’t even imagine how many Catholics around the world are glad that’s not happening.
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dochawk
Guest
Why would he need permission? The GIRM presumes the celebrant is ad orientum, to the point of instructing the celebrant to face the people at three points. It is facing them that is the option, not the (presumptive) norm.
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AlbertDerGrosse
Guest
What I honestly can’t stand is the modern tendency to split up any given ordinary part of the Mass in a sort of versicle/response format as if a segment of it were an antiphon to the larger whole. The Gloria is the worst example of this that I’ve seen, where “Gloria! Gloria! In excelsis Deo! Gloria! Gloria! In excelsis Deo!” becomes some trite made up antiphon to the remaining parts of the Gloria, which is in all actuality not a composite prayer. It’s whole and integral in the very way it’s been sung, said, chanted, etc. in whatever languages throughout the ages. I bet if the Creed were typically sung in the Ordinary Form we’d see the same kind of butchering done to it, and I’d cry.
To answer the OP. I like a lot of the suggestions, though they aren’t strictly changes to the O.F. because they’ve always been allowed as legitimate options. What I’d really like to see is more chanting of the O.F. even if the clerics, choir, and faithful only have the resources/talent to use a simple recto tono plainchant. I’d also like to see a lot more of the Mass chanted than is usually done in even your most extravagantly celebrated O.F. Chant the Introit. Chant the Collects. Chant the readings! (I’m not sure if that’s strictly speaking allowed in the rubrics, but hey a boy can wish, right?) Let’s go the Full Monty and have the announcements at the end of Mass chanted!
Have any of you experienced the Solemn Proclamation of Easter on Epiphany? That surely started off as a chanting of the announcements!
The liturgy is meant to be sung not unenthusiastically recited in a speaking voice. This is actually something I wish more Latin Mass communities (as in the E.F.) would insist on too! Too often I’ve seen Missa Cantatas suddenly become Low Masses because not enough people of the choir showed up to sing the complex polyphonic pieces for that day’s Mass. Why couldn’t the three or so that remained just plainchant the Mass? Heck, why couldn’t the faithful in the pews, many of whom would be perfectly capable of chanting in three or four simple notes chant the Mass they already have memorized by exposure?
To answer the OP. I like a lot of the suggestions, though they aren’t strictly changes to the O.F. because they’ve always been allowed as legitimate options. What I’d really like to see is more chanting of the O.F. even if the clerics, choir, and faithful only have the resources/talent to use a simple recto tono plainchant. I’d also like to see a lot more of the Mass chanted than is usually done in even your most extravagantly celebrated O.F. Chant the Introit. Chant the Collects. Chant the readings! (I’m not sure if that’s strictly speaking allowed in the rubrics, but hey a boy can wish, right?) Let’s go the Full Monty and have the announcements at the end of Mass chanted!
Have any of you experienced the Solemn Proclamation of Easter on Epiphany? That surely started off as a chanting of the announcements!The liturgy is meant to be sung not unenthusiastically recited in a speaking voice. This is actually something I wish more Latin Mass communities (as in the E.F.) would insist on too! Too often I’ve seen Missa Cantatas suddenly become Low Masses because not enough people of the choir showed up to sing the complex polyphonic pieces for that day’s Mass. Why couldn’t the three or so that remained just plainchant the Mass? Heck, why couldn’t the faithful in the pews, many of whom would be perfectly capable of chanting in three or four simple notes chant the Mass they already have memorized by exposure?
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otjm
Guest
Hmmm… I guess you are unaware of the number of women who join orders, who as youth were altar servers.
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prayerrider
Guest
Here’s a Pew Center graphic showing how the number of religious sisters has declined precipitously over the past 50 years–a period that coincides nearly exactly with the use of female altar servers.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
I’m not suggesting that having female altar servers has contributed to this catastrophic decline. But it doesn’t appear to be stemming the losses, either.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
I’m not suggesting that having female altar servers has contributed to this catastrophic decline. But it doesn’t appear to be stemming the losses, either.
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otjm
Guest
I am more inclined to look at CARA research.
And the stats you show don’t show how many are joining; only the final totals.
And the stats you show don’t show how many are joining; only the final totals.
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prayerrider
Guest
Well, it seems the number joining is far less than the number leaving for whatever reasons. A net loss of nearly 20,000 just in the past ten years or so.
By the way, the data for this graphic are from CARA.
By the way, the data for this graphic are from CARA.
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Johann_du_Toit
Guest
All the changes the OP proposed, plus banning communion in the hand, and reciting the St. Michael’s Prayer after every Mass.
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AlbertDerGrosse
Guest
I myself would like to see all of the Leonine prayers said after all Masses, both O.F. and E.F., both High and Low. I firmly believe Holy Mother Church needs them now more than ever.
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prayerrider
Guest
I pray them (and the Last Gospel) on my own, after every OF Mass. Though sometimes I might have to pray them outside or in my car as it’s often so noisy in the nave after Mass.
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AlbertDerGrosse
Guest
I pray them after every Mass also, though I’ve been very fortunate to live where we have many holy priests. The OF parish I go to from time to time is a Dominican parish and they recite the Leonine prayers every single day (I don’t know when they started this but I know it’s relatively recent since they didn’t do so a year ago when I was there for the 2018 Lenten services).
The E.F. Parish I’m used to attending says the Leonine prayers after every single Mass. Even though it isn’t officially part of the Missa Cantata or the Missa Solemnis, everyone kneels immediately after Mass (even immediately after the procession out of the church) and the MC altar server quickly comes out and starts saying the prayers until the celebrating priest also comes out in cassock and alb to render the rest.
I’ve seen similar deference to these holy and venerable prayers in other parishes around here that are universally considered “liberal”. I think the church as a whole (at least here in California) recognizes the importance of cleaving to tradition in times of trial like this.
I hope nobody takes what I’ve said above as endorsement of the posts from others lamenting the supposed heterodoxy of the Pope, or the bishops in communion with him. I don’t mean to imply any kind of sympathy whatsoever.
The E.F. Parish I’m used to attending says the Leonine prayers after every single Mass. Even though it isn’t officially part of the Missa Cantata or the Missa Solemnis, everyone kneels immediately after Mass (even immediately after the procession out of the church) and the MC altar server quickly comes out and starts saying the prayers until the celebrating priest also comes out in cassock and alb to render the rest.
I’ve seen similar deference to these holy and venerable prayers in other parishes around here that are universally considered “liberal”. I think the church as a whole (at least here in California) recognizes the importance of cleaving to tradition in times of trial like this.
I hope nobody takes what I’ve said above as endorsement of the posts from others lamenting the supposed heterodoxy of the Pope, or the bishops in communion with him. I don’t mean to imply any kind of sympathy whatsoever.
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prayerrider
Guest
According to one source I read, the Leonine Prayers were suppressed in part because they became linked to a call for the conversion of Russia. I don’t know how accurate that is.
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Peeps
Guest
I don’t understand how, in the OF of the Mass, serving at the altar is a gateway to the priesthood.
Although yes, the priest says Mass and is therefore up in the sanctuary preaching from the pulpit and consecrating the Sacred Host at the altar, there is so much more to the priesthood, so many more jobs
A priest prays the office, counsels, marries, buries, visits the sick and dying, runs meetings (ai yi yi!), makes decisions about parish activities, attends parish socials, teaches all ages, teaches in parish schools, disciples men, trains people in various tasks, hires parish staff, does charitable work among the poor and needy, asks for money, conducts parish business, hears confessions (I can’t even imagine how tough it is to hear the grieving of others over the state of their souls–it’s hard enough for me to face my own sins), works with local politicians, submits to media interviews and questioning, faces persecution from those who are convinced that all priests bear the guilt for the sins of other priests, sometimes is priest to several parishes…and this is just a partial list. Some priests have hobbies like gardening, and some are in the military (our priest!) and have active duty during the year.
In the OF, serving at the altar is not something that the priest trains children for—in our parish, it’s the Minister of Music and Liturgy. I know that the priest is involved, but there is very little discipleship training done with the children–the priest is busy conducting the Mass. The children have no verbal responses that they must learn (in Latin), and the children do not “speak on behalf of the people” as they do in the EF of the Mass. They don’t do any symbolic gestures or actions as they do in the EF Mass. They mainly do “chores”–holding the books for Father, bringing the accidents to him, etc., and when there are no altar servers, Father does all these things himself.
It is the PARENTS who have the responsibility of bringing up their sons to be open to the Call of God to the priesthood. The PARENTS are with their sons during much of their earliest development, during which time parents must raise a child to know and love God and be listening for Him to speak to them. It is the PARENTS who daily, constantly model God to their children, and do the many good acts that Christians should do–give to the poor, pray, study the Scriptures, confess their sins and do penance, love their spouse, etc.
Think about it–there are plenty of laymen who were altar servers in the Latin Masses. I would say that the vast majority of altar boys did not become priests.
And there are plenty of priests who were not altar servers.
I don’t think that serving at the altar is the primary path for young men to hear and answer the Call to the priesthood. I think it has more to do with proper upbringing and exposure to many settings where Christian service is done by clergy and lay people.
Although yes, the priest says Mass and is therefore up in the sanctuary preaching from the pulpit and consecrating the Sacred Host at the altar, there is so much more to the priesthood, so many more jobs
A priest prays the office, counsels, marries, buries, visits the sick and dying, runs meetings (ai yi yi!), makes decisions about parish activities, attends parish socials, teaches all ages, teaches in parish schools, disciples men, trains people in various tasks, hires parish staff, does charitable work among the poor and needy, asks for money, conducts parish business, hears confessions (I can’t even imagine how tough it is to hear the grieving of others over the state of their souls–it’s hard enough for me to face my own sins), works with local politicians, submits to media interviews and questioning, faces persecution from those who are convinced that all priests bear the guilt for the sins of other priests, sometimes is priest to several parishes…and this is just a partial list. Some priests have hobbies like gardening, and some are in the military (our priest!) and have active duty during the year.
In the OF, serving at the altar is not something that the priest trains children for—in our parish, it’s the Minister of Music and Liturgy. I know that the priest is involved, but there is very little discipleship training done with the children–the priest is busy conducting the Mass. The children have no verbal responses that they must learn (in Latin), and the children do not “speak on behalf of the people” as they do in the EF of the Mass. They don’t do any symbolic gestures or actions as they do in the EF Mass. They mainly do “chores”–holding the books for Father, bringing the accidents to him, etc., and when there are no altar servers, Father does all these things himself.
It is the PARENTS who have the responsibility of bringing up their sons to be open to the Call of God to the priesthood. The PARENTS are with their sons during much of their earliest development, during which time parents must raise a child to know and love God and be listening for Him to speak to them. It is the PARENTS who daily, constantly model God to their children, and do the many good acts that Christians should do–give to the poor, pray, study the Scriptures, confess their sins and do penance, love their spouse, etc.
Think about it–there are plenty of laymen who were altar servers in the Latin Masses. I would say that the vast majority of altar boys did not become priests.
And there are plenty of priests who were not altar servers.
I don’t think that serving at the altar is the primary path for young men to hear and answer the Call to the priesthood. I think it has more to do with proper upbringing and exposure to many settings where Christian service is done by clergy and lay people.
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WingsOfEagles
Guest
Get married or join the convent aren’t the only options for a woman today. She can pick about any career she wants. Families are smaller too … less daughters to join. I also think many young women see being a religious sister as a nice thing for a woman to do, but not critical like a priest on need.
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