Small Question

[shlomo3amrooh]

Hi,

I’m a Syriac Catholic male.

If I marry a Roman Catholic girl will our kids be Syriac Catholic or Roman catholic?

I was speaking to a priest the other day however he was unsure. He said that all our boys would be Syriac Catholic and all our girls would be Roman Catholic even if they were baptised by different rite priests. For eg boys by Roman Catholic priest and girls by Syriac Catholic priest.

Can someone kindly clarify this for me?

 

[The_Idiot]

Putting it simply

Your Children take the Rite of their father - so in your case , any children will be Syriac Catholic - even if their Baptism is ‘done’ in the Roman Catholic Church.

If they are Baptised in the RC Church please ensure that as well as their Baptism being recorded as it should be ] a note is made that they are Syriac Catholic as their father is .

 

[jbarbaretta]

Hi,

I’m a Syriac Catholic male.

If I marry a Roman Catholic girl will our kids be Syriac Catholic or Roman catholic?

I was speaking to a priest the other day however he was unsure. He said that all our boys would be Syriac Catholic and all our girls would be Roman Catholic even if they were baptised by different rite priests. For eg boys by Roman Catholic priest and girls by Syriac Catholic priest.

Can someone kindly clarify this for me?

Which rite church do you regularly attend?

My guess is that your children for the most part will feel most at home practicing the rite they grow up with. It is true that boys may tend to want to be like dad when they grow up and gravitate to the Syriac rite and the girls may tend to want to be like mom and gravitate towards the Roman rite, irregardless of the church they grew up in, but most likely, you and your wife will spend most of the time in a single parish, either Syriac or Roman rite. You will naturally take your children to the other rite to expose them to the beauty that it brings to the Church as a whole and when around relatives that attend the other rite. However, 90% of the time will be in one parish - therefore practicing one rite. Your children will feel most at home there. In general, they will be blessed with a greater experience of the Church than most Catholics get during their entire lives.

I am not familiar with any requirement to force a child to one rite or the other. I believe you normally are considered to be under the rite of your baptism, as that usually occurs in the church your family is enrolled in. But I may be wrong. I also believe it would be possible to be baptized by a priest of one rite and still be under the sui juris of a church in another rite - that could occur under an emergency situation or with the permission of both bishops.

Of course, I am no expert in this area, so take what I say with a grain of salt. Also, being of the Roman rite, I may be unaware of requirements/expectations placed on you by your bishop.

 

[Joe_5859]

Putting it simply

Your Children take the Rite of their father - so in your case , any children will be Syriac Catholic - even if their Baptism is ‘done’ in the Roman Catholic Church.

If they are Baptised in the RC Church please ensure that as well as their Baptism being recorded as it should be ] a note is made that they are Syriac Catholic as their father is .

Is this accurate? I don’t think there’s anything in the Code of Canon Law requiring this.

I would think it would be up to you and your wife to make that decision rather than it simply being a “default”.

I would ask several priests and see if any of them are more certain.

It seems based on your post that you are not even married yet. So maybe this will never be an issue for you. You’re probably less likely to get a straight answer if you’re just asking hypothetically.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Is this accurate? I don’t think there’s anything in the Code of Canon Law requiring this.

Can. 111 §1. Through the reception of baptism, the child of parents who belong to the Latin Church is enrolled in it, or, if one or the other does not belong to it, both parents have chosen by mutual agreement to have the offspring baptized in the Latin Church. If there is no mutual agreement, however, the child is enrolled in the ritual Church to which the father belongs.

 

[Joe_5859]

Can. 111 §1. Through the reception of baptism, the child of parents who belong to the Latin Church is enrolled in it, or, if one or the other does not belong to it, both parents have chosen by mutual agreement to have the offspring baptized in the Latin Church. If there is no mutual agreement, however, the child is enrolled in the ritual Church to which the father belongs.

I stand corrected!

Is there anything that is not covered in Canon Law?

If I’m reading it correctly, though, it qualifies it with “if there is no mutual agreement”. That suggests to me that, if the couple agrees, the children could be baptized Latin Rite.

 

[malphono]

Hi,

I’m a Syriac Catholic male.

If I marry a Roman Catholic girl will our kids be Syriac Catholic or Roman catholic?

I was speaking to a priest the other day however he was unsure. He said that all our boys would be Syriac Catholic and all our girls would be Roman Catholic even if they were baptised by different rite priests. For eg boys by Roman Catholic priest and girls by Syriac Catholic priest.

Can someone kindly clarify this for me?

Perhaps more to the point are the following canons from the CCEO (emphasis added):

Canon 29 - §1. By virtue of baptism, a child who has not yet completed his fourteenth year of age is enrolled in the Church sui iuris of the Catholic father; or the Church sui iuris of the mother if only the mother is Catholic or if both parents by agreement freely request it, with due regard for particular law established by the Apostolic See.
§2. If the child who has not yet completed his fourteenth year is:
1° born of an unwed mother, he is enrolled in the Church sui iuris to which the mother belongs;
2° born of unknown parents, he is to be enrolled in the Church sui iuris of those in whose care he has been legitimately committed are enrolled; if it is a case of an adoptive father and mother, 1 should be applied;
3° born of non-baptized parents, the child is to be a member of the Church sui iuris of the one who is responsible for his education in the Catholic faith.

Canon 30 - Anyone to be baptized who has completed the fourteenth year of age can freely select any Church sui iuris in which he or she then is enrolled by virtue of baptism received in that same Church, with due regard for particular law established by the Apostolic See.

Canon 33 - A wife is at liberty to transfer to the Church of the husband at the celebration of or during the marriage; when the marriage has ended, she can freely return to the original Church sui iuris.

Canon 34 - If the parents, or the Catholic spouse in the case of a mixed marriage, transfer to another Church sui iuris, children under fourteen years old by the law itself are enrolled in the same Church; if in a marriage of Catholics only one parent transfers to another Church sui iuris, the children transfer only if both parents consent. Upon completion of the fourteenth year of age, the children can return to the original Church sui iuris.

Canon 37 - Every enrollment in a certain Church sui iuris or transfer to another Church sui iuris should be recorded in the baptismal register of the parish where the baptism was celebrated, even, as the case may be, in a Latin parish; if this cannot be done, it is to be kept by the proper pastor in another document in the archive of the parish of the Church sui iuris of enrollment.

 

[jbarbaretta]

Can. 111 §1. Through the reception of baptism, the child of parents who belong to the Latin Church is enrolled in it, or, if one or the other does not belong to it, both parents have chosen by mutual agreement to have the offspring baptized in the Latin Church. If there is no mutual agreement, however, the child is enrolled in the ritual Church to which the father belongs.

Thank you. I was trying to find something like that and could not.

I am assuming that this also covers the case where, by mutual agreement the parents mutually agree to baptize their child into the mother’s Church if she is not of the Latin Rite. (not relevant to the question above, but seems left out of the cite). Or, would that really depend on the her church’s own law and governance?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Hi,

I’m a Syriac Catholic male.

If I marry a Roman Catholic girl will our kids be Syriac Catholic or Roman catholic?

I was speaking to a priest the other day however he was unsure. He said that all our boys would be Syriac Catholic and all our girls would be Roman Catholic even if they were baptised by different rite priests. For eg boys by Roman Catholic priest and girls by Syriac Catholic priest.

Can someone kindly clarify this for me?

You children will be Syriac Catholics.

 

[German_Melkite]

With the exceptions already noted - the children are the rite of the father.

BUT - no matter what rite the children are officially . . . in America . . .

They will drift away from their non-Roman rite - and none of the systems, parishes, or priests will even attempt to ‘keep them’ in their own tradition.

IF they stay Catholic, eventually they will move a city that does not have any Eastern Catholic Church or does not have one of their tradition. They will start attending the local Roman parish and eventually will be fully Roman. The grandchildren will never know the difference. It should not be this way - but it:sad_yes: is and has been for a hundred years. If the Roman clergy followed the canon law . . . we would have far more Eastern Catholics than are currently registered.

Mostly likely the children will move to a city without their Eastern Catholic tradition and the children will drift into an Orthodox parish or they will drift away altogether.

As ECs we should be looking at our Catholic Universities and seeing how well they support the various Eastern Catholic students . . . most ignore them - at best.

 

[PJM]

=shlomo3amrooh;8461473]Hi,

I’m a Syriac Catholic male.

If I marry a Roman Catholic girl will our kids be Syriac Catholic or Roman catholic?

I was speaking to a priest the other day however he was unsure. He said that all our boys would be Syriac Catholic and all our girls would be Roman Catholic even if they were baptised by different rite priests. For eg boys by Roman Catholic priest and girls by Syriac Catholic priest.

Can someone kindly clarify this for me?

The Bible and therfore God himself has always, and everywhere taught: Only One God; Only One set of Faith beliefs; and Only One Church: that which Jesus himself founded. Today’s RCC. IF there are any differene on beliefs, ANY, then all the children must be raided as RCC.

See what Christ taught:

John.10: 16 “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd”

Eph. 4: 1-7 “I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body [WHICH MEANS ONE CHURCH] and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, [Meaning only One set of beliefs] one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift.

God Bless you,
Pat

Eph. 2:19-20 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [singular] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

**Phil.2: 2 ** “complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.”

 

[Cavaradossi]

The Bible and therfore God himself has always, and everywhere taught: Only One God; Only One set of Faith beliefs; and Only One Church: that which Jesus himself founded. Today’s RCC. IF there are any differene on beliefs, ANY, then all the children must be raided as RCC.

See what Christ taught:

John.10: 16 “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd”

Eph. 4: 1-7 “I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body [WHICH MEANS ONE CHURCH] and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, [Meaning only One set of beliefs] one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift.

God Bless you,
Pat

Eph. 2:19-20 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [singular] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

**Phil.2: 2 ** “complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.”

You seem to be misunderstanding the nature of the OP’s question.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

The Bible and therfore God himself has always, and everywhere taught: Only One God; Only One set of Faith beliefs; and Only One Church: that which Jesus himself founded. Today’s RCC. IF there are any differene on beliefs, ANY, then all the children must be raided as RCC.

Interesting typo: raided as RCC.

But why do you think they need to be Roman Catholic rather than Syriac Catholic when canon law gives preference to the father’s church?

 

[5Loaves]

Hi,
I’m a Syriac Catholic male.

If I marry a Roman Catholic girl will our kids be Syriac Catholic or Roman catholic?

Welcome to CAF Forum, Eastern Catholicism section.

As already was clarified by SuscipeMeDomine and malphono both the Code of Canons for the Latin (Roman) Church and for the Eastern Catholic Churches provide for your children to be baptized in your Church, the Syriac Catholic Church. It is normal for Orthodox and Eastern Catholics at baptism to also chrismate and to give eucharist to babies, the complete rite of initiation into the Church.

I just wanted to emphasize the important other canon malphono pointed you to:

Perhaps more to the point are the following canons from the CCEO (emphasis added):

CCEO Canon 33 - A wife is at liberty to transfer to the Church of the husband at the celebration of or during the marriage; when the marriage has ended, she can freely return to the original Church sui iuris.

The companion Canon from the Latin Church’s Code of Canon Law is

Can. 112 §1. After the reception of baptism, the following are enrolled in another ritual Church sui iuris:

2/ a spouse who, at the time of or during marriage, has declared that he or she is transferring to the ritual Church sui iuris of the other spouse; when the marriage has ended, however, the person can freely return to the Latin Church;

This is an entirely different means of transfer and simpler than when a person wants to change Churches apart from the provision in marriage. So if she chose to your future wife, if she is Latin (“Roman”) Catholic, could very simply become a Syriac Catholic. That would of course not be necessary for her to do.

It sounds like you have access to your Church. If you did not have a Syriac Catholic Church anywhere nearby then with permission the Latin Church priest could do the sacraments and it would be recorded in the baptismal record of that parish of the Latin Church that the child is Syriac Catholic. Your priest had some part of that correct. The Idiot mentions the importance of that getting recorded properly in the baptismal record.

 

[Kielbasi]

Putting it simply

Your Children take the Rite of their father - so in your case , any children will be Syriac Catholic - even if their Baptism is ‘done’ in the Roman Catholic Church.

If they are Baptised in the RC Church please ensure that as well as their Baptism being recorded as it should be ] a note is made that they are Syriac Catholic as their father is .

Interesting, TI.

Has this canon been around for a long time?

I would guess over the past century and a half in America many Eastern rite people have “defected” to the Latin rite for “mixed” marriages or because of a lack of Eastern rite clergy where they are at.

Their children may well have been raised in the Latin rite, as well as their children’s children.

There could be literally hundreds of thousands of Eastern rite Catholics out there that don’t even know it, based on their great grandfather or great great grandfather’s sui juris church.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

With the exceptions already noted - the children are the rite of the father.

BUT - no matter what rite the children are officially . . . in America . . .

They will drift away from their non-Roman rite - and none of the systems, parishes, or priests will even attempt to ‘keep them’ in their own tradition.

IF they stay Catholic, eventually they will move a city that does not have any Eastern Catholic Church or does not have one of their tradition. They will start attending the local Roman parish and eventually will be fully Roman. The grandchildren will never know the difference. It should not be this way - but it:sad_yes: is and has been for a hundred years. If the Roman clergy followed the canon law . . . we would have far more Eastern Catholics than are currently registered.

Mostly likely the children will move to a city without their Eastern Catholic tradition and the children will drift into an Orthodox parish or they will drift away altogether.

As ECs we should be looking at our Catholic Universities and seeing how well they support the various Eastern Catholic students . . . most ignore them - at best.

Unfortunately, sometimes what you say happen. Too bad.(

 

[Diakonia]

As has already been stated quite definitively by several knowledgeable posters, both with and without citations to the relevant Canons of both the West and East, the child of parents who are not of the same Church sui iuris are baptized into the Church of the father - unless, by mutual agreement of the two parents, they elect to baptize the child into that of the mother.

That means that the OP’s child will be baptized into the Syriac Catholic Church, unless he and his wife mutually agree that the child be baptized into the Latin Church. If the child is baptized into the Syriac Church, he should receive the initiatory Mysteries of Chrismation and the Eucharist at the same time as being Baptized. It will not matter whether the Baptism is performed by a Syriac Catholic priest or a Latin Catholic priest - that is what should be/must be done.

As already stated, if the ceremony is performed by a Latin priest because there is not access to a Syriac priest, the facts of the ceremony are to be recorded in the metrical books (Sacramental Register). The record must reflect that the child is of the Syriac Church and that the initiatory Mysteries were performed. The Latin priest should also transmit a record of this to the father’s Syriac parish - or, if they are in a place where he is without a parish - to the Eparchy of Our Lady of Delivearnce in Newark of the Syriacs (assuming this occurs in the US or Canada).

Should the parents mutually agree to have the child enrolled in the Latin Church, the Latin priest who baptizes the child must record the mutual consent of the parents in the metrical books, noting that the father is canonically of the Syriac Church. If they agree to enrollment in the Latin Church, but have the Mystery performed by a Syriac priest (which would be uncommon, assuming a Latin church and priest is available), the Syriac priest should only baptize - he must not administer the other initiatory Mysteries - and he must record the mutual agreement, the fact of the father being Syriac, and the child’s enrollment as a Latin in the metrical books and must forward notice of the baptism and the relevant facts involved to the pastor of the mother’s Latin parish.

Note that - unless there is mutual agreement by the parents and it is recorded - the child will canonically be a Syriac Catholic regardless of the fact that a Latin priest performs the ceremony - regardless of whether the child is only baptized and not chrismated or communed - and regardless of the absence of any record as to the father’s canonical status as a Syriac. There are stories aplenty of men preparing to be ordained in the Church sui iuris in which they were raised, only to find that their father was of a different Church. I personally know of a priest, raised Melkite, of whom it was discovered shortly before ordination that his father was Maronite, and whose ordination was delayed pending receipt of the necessary approvals to be ordained to the Melkite presbyterate.

The idea that sons followed the Rite/Church of the father and daughters that of the mother was an ancient construct that never had any formal basis in the Canons but was practiced in various times and places over the centuries and is still not unheard of - though rare and inappropriate.

As to the poster who asked how long the relevant Canons have been in place and expressed surprise, noting there must be many persons of E&O Catholic heritage who have been raised Latin through ignorance of those Canons if they are of any antiquity - bingo! The cited Canons are of recent vintage (1983, CIC; 1990, CCEO) but they are merely a restatement of Canons of antiquity. And, yes, they were violated knowingly or unknowingly for decades - certainly through the entire 20th century, during which E&O Catholics have had a presence in the diaspora. (It was less common earlier, because marriages between faithful of different Churches * were less common in the Old Country, where one’s spouse was usually of the same village and, consequently, usually of the same Church.)

Finally, the conflicting and incorrect answers that were quickly posted to this thread in its earliest moments demonstrate the fallacy involved in Latin Catholics posting answers to questions involving matters Eastern, regarding which they have no knowledge beyond what they ‘think’, ‘know’, ‘have heard’, or incorrectly interpret based on an assured belief in the supremacy of all things Latin. Such as this is why the E&O Catholic Churches in the diaspora have been decimated over the past 120 years.*

 

[shlomo3amrooh]

Hi All,

Thanks for all your wonderful answers, my question has been answered to the fullest.

However I have another question that came out of all the answers.

The answers seem to suggest that Syriac Catholics receive the sacrament of the Eucharist upon Baptism. This is not what happened to me, I received the sacrament of the Eucharist in third grade.

Can someone please clarify what was supposed to happen, or what should happen?

God Bless, Ave Maria

 

[The_Idiot]

Can you really remember what happened at your Baptism ?

Yes I’m sure that you Received the Holy Gifts in 3rd grade , as you remember. In some traditions this is referred to as Solemn Communion after the First Confession ]

Don’t worry about it - just research it when you have your First Child and ensure that you use the Tradition of your Church rather than the tradition that has developed over time because people did not have access to a Syriac Catholic Church and therefore had to follow the normal practice of the Roman Church which they attended.

 

[malphono]

However I have another question that came out of all the answers.

The answers seem to suggest that Syriac Catholics receive the sacrament of the Eucharist upon Baptism. This is not what happened to me, I received the sacrament of the Eucharist in third grade.

Can someone please clarify what was supposed to happen, or what should happen?

It depends. One point of interest would be when and where were you baptized? Did you receive the Anointing with Holy Myroun at the same time?

Properly speaking, the the 3 Sacraments of Initiation (Baptism, Anointing with Holy Myroun, and Eucharist) should be given at the same service, and this is how it is done in the SOC. While I’m not 100% certain of how it is handled by the SCC, I am 100% certain that the Syriac Churches in communion with Rome (both the Maronites and the SCC, and for that matter the Chaldean, Syro-Malankara, and Syro-Malabar Churches, too) all suffer from latinizations to a far greater degree than do the Byzantine Churches.

For example, in 1942, the Maronites were planning (and were prepared) to restore the practice of conferring the 3 Sacraments together, but Rome categorically refused to allow it. Eventually, (in the 1960s), the Anointing with Holy Myroun was allowed but, except in cases of adult baptism, still not the Eucharist, which was and is administered according the Latin fashion, at around 7 or 8 years of age. That’s how it stands today. I’d not be surprised if same rule applies to the SCC.