Smaller Church Ok: Archbishop Nienstedt

[Ockham]

Excerpt:

“”*We’re part and parcel of the culture, so it’s important for us to be involved with those discussions and have our say," Nienstedt said. He said Jesus Christ directed his followers to “either be hot or cold, but if you’re lukewarm, I don’t want that. So we want people who live their faith.”

Nienstedt called the reorganization, which also will involve dozens more churches sharing priests and some staff and resources, “a reconfiguring of resources to meet our needs and mission.” But he said Catholics need not fear a smaller church, and the threat of one is not a reason to abandon core tenets.

“I believe that it’s important that if you’re going to be Catholic, that you have to be 100% Catholic,” Nienstedt said. “That you stand by the church, you believe what the church believes and you pass that on to your sons and daughters and your grandsons and granddaughters.*”"

usatoday.com/news/religion/2010-10-20-catholic19_ST_N.htm?csp=usat.me

Our Pope has said similar things. Adhering to orthodoxy and tradition is what being Catholic is all about. As Father Simonsen is quoted at the end of the article, if you want to change the Church then do us all a favour and just leave.

 

[Scoobyshme]

Go, Bishop Nienstedt, baby! Tell it like it is!!! :clapping:

 

[FCEGM]

May all our Bishops respond to the Holy Spirit as this good Bishop has!

 

[archangel04]

Gives me chills (good way) reading that. Finally real men who are standing up and proclaiming as it should, and not sugar coating the teachings.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

What I find interesting about this article is it talks about CORE Catholic beliefs…

Such as

Abortion
Homosexuality
Clergy celebecy

I would even include Latin remains the universal language (and should)

but it doesn’t say that the NO should change or that CITH or some of the other practices that some people don’t like.

To me it’s one thing to say…if you expect the church to change its position on abortion or homosexuality…it isn’t going to…either live with it or leave.

But do people think that Catholics should leave if they take CITH? A practice that currently the Church does allow.

 

[frenchbeatle]

Go, Bishop Nienstedt, baby! Tell it like it is!!! :clapping:

And I’m proud and blessed that he is the archbishop in my archdiocese!

Archbishop Nienstedt got quite a bit of flack for that DVD about gay “marriage”, but I’m so glad he put it out. And that he’s sticking to his guns on other issues as well.

 

[Ockham]

What I find interesting about this article is it talks about CORE Catholic beliefs…

Such as

Abortion
Homosexuality
Clergy celebecy

I would even include Latin remains the universal language (and should)

but it doesn’t say that the NO should change or that CITH or some of the other practices that some people don’t like.

To me it’s one thing to say…if you expect the church to change its position on abortion or homosexuality…it isn’t going to…either live with it or leave.

But do people think that Catholics should leave if they take CITH? A practice that currently the Church does allow.

Are you familiar with how CITH got into the GIRM?

 

[laszlo]

The problem is not with the Masses. Super-churches serving 5000 people at a time can be built, and a priest cans say Mass. The problem is with the confessions and viaticum. Especially for the viaticum the distance is critical. So either Catholics start to live in ghettos, or we need many priests.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Are you familiar with how CITH got into the GIRM?

I don’t have a problem with either CITH or COTT…as both are allowed by the Church. And here in Oregon CITH is more the norm. Do I think someone should be denyed COTT or by kneeling…NO! But as long as Holy Mother Church allows it…I will continue to do so. Now if HMC were to say no more…well I defer to her.

I just think that’s different then saying…oh…well I know the Catholic church teaches against ABC but I think it’s ok and not a sin. I use example because it is something I had to come to terms with on my return to the Church, and had to go to confession for. I guess I’m also lucky in that our priest is ALWAYS talking about confession and I therefore realized the need for it and the blessing of frequent confession.

I however have had to deal with relatives like my stepmom who wants to pick and choose Church teaching that she wants to follow or not. I think those are more who the Archbishop was talking about…with the example of the DVD against gay marriage.

I know that there are those people who are totally against CITH…but really I think that is a seperate type of issue then what the Archbishop was talking about…don’t you…when you read the article? The one priest was saying that they could get more priest if they allowed them to be married, etc. The Archbishop was saying those things are not going to change…even if churches have to close. Those are CORE Catholic beliefs.

 

[Ockham]

You didn’t answer my question.

Here’s a suggestion: Google “Dutch Catechism” Keep in mind CITH sprang up in Holland in the sixties (as a liturgical abuse). Connect the dots.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

You didn’t answer my question.

Here’s a suggestion: Google “Dutch Catechism” Keep in mind CITH sprang up in Holland in the sixties (as a liturgical abuse). Connect the dots.

sorry…I don’t feel a need to go “connect the dots” as you put it. It’s obvious that you and I don’t agree on this and I have no desire to argue with you…honestly. What it has to do with the article on the Archbishop’s comments, I don’t get:shrug: That article is what I was responding to. What the article says…not what is infered into it.

 

[ncstevem]

is similar as the phenomemnon of girl altar boys. It began as a local abuse and spread to become a more wisespread abuse until the previous pope OK’d it.

 

[Ockham]

sorry…I don’t feel a need to go “connect the dots” as you put it. It’s obvious that you and I don’t agree on this and I have no desire to argue with you…honestly. What it has to do with the article on the Archbishop’s comments, I don’t get:shrug: That article is what I was responding to. What the article says…not what is infered into it.

If you don’t want to argue about this subject why do you resist learning about it? I"m trying to help you understand how the Archbishop’s stand is connected to a larger issue in the Church. Your question as to what CITH has to do with anything is a good one and related. I was hoping you could take some time to research this subject on your own, but as you’re not willing I’ll take the time to provide you a summary. An open mind will be of great assistance.

CITH came into practice illegally in Holland during the 1960’s. It had been banned by the Church for most of its history. Holland, once a strong Catholic nation, became a hotbed of dissent and rebellion in the 60’s. The bishops produced what is called the Dutch Catechesim which questioned the perpetual virginity of Mary and sympathized with artificial birth control among other challenges to the Faith.

Until the 60’s, CITH was a Protestant practice (except for some Franciscans) symbolic of an un-Transubstantiation belief. Many clergy, including Pope Paul VI and Fr John Hardon predicted the practice would lower belief in the Real Presence among Catholics and today’s surveys indicate they were right.

The Catholic Church operates in a ‘top-down’ manner: God-Pope-Clergy-Laity. CITH didn’t come from God’s representative on Earth nor any Council. In fact, previous Popes and Councils forbid CITH. It came about as an act of rebellion which the Church tried to suppress. Unfortunately, Pope Paul VI left a loophole in his 1969 letter clearly stating CITH was not to be practiced. In countries where it already was in practice it could continue under the authority of an indult.

In 1969 CITH was not in practice in the U.S thus didn’t qualify for the indult. In the mid 70’s Cardinal Bernardin became head of the USCCB and immediately began a campaign for CITH. He called for a vote of the nation’s bishops which was defeated. The next year he called for another vote which again was defeated. For his third vote retired bishops were asked to mail in their response which apparently got the majority he was after. There are questions about this third vote and it marked the first time retired bishops mailed in their votes.

Today there are other acts of rebellion going on in the Church. There are priests and lay organizations openly calling for gay marriage, married priests, female ordination, ABC, etc. What Archbishop Nienstedt is displaying is the traditional Catholic structure of top-down authority. What the Church didn’t do after V2 was enforce its authority which is why we suffered through forty years of liturgical chaos, drastic declines in Mass attendance, Confessions, belief in the Real Presence, seminarians, etc. Archbishop Nienstedt is saying if you don’t like the Church the way it is (or suppose to be) then leave rather than try to change it. If he was in charge during the ‘spirit of V2’ haydays I suspect CITH would still be the liturgical abuse it has been for the vast majority of Church history.

 

[BrotherPaulMary]

The Church allows people to go to Communion once a year and Confession once a year.

This is a minimum standard in the Church with respect to these two sacraments.

However if you want to know what the Church recommends - it is regular Confession and daily Communion.

I do not understand the thinking that perhaps standing to receive is somehow equal to kneeling to receive. The only thing that you can say in its favor is that the Church permits this as a minimum standard.

God Bless.

Br. Paul

 

[archangel04]

If you don’t want to argue about this subject why do you resist learning about it? I"m trying to help you understand how the Archbishop’s stand is connected to a larger issue in the Church. Your question as to what CITH has to do with anything is a good one and related. I was hoping you could take some time to research this subject on your own, but as you’re not willing I’ll take the time to provide you a summary. An open mind will be of great assistance.

CITH came into practice illegally in Holland during the 1960’s. It had been banned by the Church for most of its history. Holland, once a strong Catholic nation, became a hotbed of dissent and rebellion in the 60’s. The bishops produced what is called the Dutch Catechesim which questioned the perpetual virginity of Mary and sympathized with artificial birth control among other challenges to the Faith.

Until the 60’s, CITH was a Protestant practice (except for some Franciscans) symbolic of an un-Transubstantiation belief. Many clergy, including Pope Paul VI and Fr John Hardon predicted the practice would lower belief in the Real Presence among Catholics and today’s surveys indicate they were right.

The Catholic Church operates in a ‘top-down’ manner: God-Pope-Clergy-Laity. CITH didn’t come from God’s representative on Earth nor any Council. In fact, previous Popes and Councils forbid CITH. It came about as an act of rebellion which the Church tried to suppress. Unfortunately, Pope Paul VI left a loophole in his 1969 letter clearly stating CITH was not to be practiced. In countries where it already was in practice it could continue under the authority of an indult.

In 1969 CITH was not in practice in the U.S thus didn’t qualify for the indult. In the mid 70’s Cardinal Bernardin became head of the USCCB and immediately began a campaign for CITH. He called for a vote of the nation’s bishops which was defeated. The next year he called for another vote which again was defeated. For his third vote retired bishops were asked to mail in their response which apparently got the majority he was after. There are questions about this third vote and it marked the first time retired bishops mailed in their votes.

Today there are other acts of rebellion going on in the Church. There are priests and lay organizations openly calling for gay marriage, married priests, female ordination, ABC, etc. What Archbishop Nienstedt is displaying is the traditional Catholic structure of top-down authority. What the Church didn’t do after V2 was enforce its authority which is why we suffered through forty years of liturgical chaos, drastic declines in Mass attendance, Confessions, belief in the Real Presence, seminarians, etc. Archbishop Nienstedt is saying if you don’t like the Church the way it is (or suppose to be) then leave rather than try to change it. If he was in charge during the ‘spirit of V2’ haydays I suspect CITH would still be the liturgical abuse it has been for the vast majority of Church history.

Very very informative and well put. Thanks for the info
I have to agree, although Church allows for CITH in my opinion it’s wrong. How do you go from kneeling to standing and on the hand? I firmly believe that lack of catecheses and COTH and promoted the lack of belief in the Real presence.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

If you don’t want to argue about this subject why do you resist learning about it? I"m trying to help you understand how the Archbishop’s stand is connected to a larger issue in the Church. Your question as to what CITH has to do with anything is a good one and related. I was hoping you could take some time to research this subject on your own, but as you’re not willing I’ll take the time to provide you a summary. An open mind will be of great assistance. ** Well, considering I work full time, go to Fr.'s Tues Scripture study, Wed night Mass, and Thursday RCIA besides trying to read the Catechism and be a good wife…maybe you’ll give me a break on not taking the time to do research on something I don’t feel all the pressed to do. I believe in the Real Presence and all I can muster after receiving communion is a prayer on my knees of thankfulness.**

Today there are other acts of rebellion going on in the Church. There are priests and lay organizations openly calling for gay marriage, married priests, female ordination, ABC, etc. What Archbishop Nienstedt is displaying is the traditional Catholic structure of top-down authority. What the Church didn’t do after V2 was enforce its authority which is why we suffered through forty years of liturgical chaos, drastic declines in Mass attendance, Confessions, belief in the Real Presence, seminarians, etc. Archbishop Nienstedt is saying if you don’t like the Church the way it is (or suppose to be) then leave rather than try to change it. If he was in charge during the ‘spirit of V2’ haydays I suspect CITH would still be the liturgical abuse it has been for the vast majority of Church history.
**Yes…other acts such as you have listed above. That is what I believe the real meat of the article was about. And that is what I think needs to be tackled first. I don’t think it does any good to lump Catholics who take CITH (which whether people like it or not is currently an indult) with Catholics that pick or choose from the above. Those are the things that should be looked at first. Although I disagree that it would necessarily have to do with V2…I think it is a sad commentary on the times. Many Protestant churchs that used to be against gay marriage and abortion have drastically changed in what their members support. Unfortuntely, their church’s authoritys have changed what they stand for to fit the times. The Catholic Church has not waivered on any of those. **

 

[Ockham]

Annabelle Marie, if you don’t want to spend time learning Church history that’s your prerogative. However, it may benefit you to be a little softer with those who have and are charitably trying to answer a question you posed.

CITH began in a rebellious place, during a rebellious time as a symbol of rebellion. There is no Scriptural nor Papal support for it. The Church throughout its history has not stated anything good about it. It’s related because an attitude of rebellion on one issue leads to others.

Archbishop Nienstedt has a priest in his diocese who openly criticizes him on topics such as gay marriage and adoption. Such rebellion is to be exposed and seen for what it is - defiance of God. Our role is to follow the direction God’s Church gives us, not dicate from below. The Truth doesn’t change, follow fads, or rebel.

 

[ProVobis]

Many Protestant churchs that used to be against gay marriage and abortion have drastically changed in what their members support.

I don’t think this is a valid claim. There are atheists and non-Christians who oppose abortions.

 

[jeanannemarie]

sorry…I don’t feel a need to go “connect the dots” as you put it. It’s obvious that you and I don’t agree on this and I have no desire to argue with you…honestly. What it has to do with the article on the Archbishop’s comments, I don’t get:shrug: That article is what I was responding to. What the article says…not what is infered into it.

Dear Annabelle, What he wanted you to see is the way Communion in the hand came about… that it wasn’t started by those wanting to be orthodox in the Catholic beliefs. He was hoping you could draw your own correct conclusion.

 

[Ockham]

I don’t think this is a valid claim. There are atheists and non-Christians who oppose abortions.

It does speak to a fundamental difference between Catholic and Protestant though. The keys to Heaven were given to St. Peter, not Martin Luther, Jimmy Swagart, or somebody who became a minister on-line. Catholics are suppose to follow Church teachings. Protestants are free to form consensus, follow fads, rule from the bottom up, fire the minister or find another denomination. We lived through forty years of change, experimentation, and a break with tradition and are currently suffering the consequences. Our current pontiff and clergymen like Archbishop Nienstedt are rebuilding from the damage.