Smithsonian statement on Book of Mormon

[boppysbud]

Mormons of course completely ignore all of this and quote CS Lewis, and a lot of the early church fathers as teaching “divinisation” in their books and web sites.

Of course CS Lewis was an orthodox Anglican, and the early church fathers whom the Mormons quote as being on “their side” were all orthodox Christians. They all beleived in only one God, who has no body, and who has always been God. They also beleived that human beings will never become “godS”.

Yet the Mormons blithely ignore all of this, and continue quoting Lewis and the ECFs as beleiving in “divinisation”. This follows the Mormon practice of quoteting snippets of proof texts, in many cases not even entire verses, to make it seem as if the Bible supports their unusual and interesting ideas.

And why do the Mormons insist of using the indecipherable KJV version to the exclusion of all other Bibles. Even the BOM which was written in 1830 a few centuries after the KJV style English was obsolete is written in this KJV style English.

But I’m not just picking on the Mormons here, on this site you will find several “Catholics” (I beleive they are really not Catholics at all but SSPV schismatics) insisting on using the Douay-Rhiems with the same obsolete English as the only English Bible.

Is “thou” holier than “you”?

 

[catholic-rcia]

*We are not built on the fall of the Jewish faith. Their God is our God. Their Father is our Father. *

Catechism
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,

For both Jews and Christians Sacred Scripture is an essential part of their respective liturgies: in the proclamation of the Word of God, the response to this word, prayer of praise and intercession for the living and the dead, invocation of God’s mercy. In its characteristic structure the Liturgy of the Word originates in Jewish prayer. The Liturgy of the Hours and other liturgical texts and formularies, as well as those of our most venerable prayers, including the Lord’s Prayer, have parallels in Jewish prayer. The Eucharistic Prayers also draw their inspiration from the Jewish tradition. The relationship between Jewish liturgy and Christian liturgy, but also their differences in content, are particularly evident in the great feasts of the liturgical year, such as Passover. Christians and Jews both celebrate the Passover. For Jews, it is the Passover of history, tending toward the future; for Christians, it is the Passover fulfilled in the death and Resurrection of Christ, though always in expectation of its definitive consummation.

** **By celebrating the Last Supper
catholic-rcia.com/pages/Scriptures/John_six.html

catholic-rcia.com/pages/Eucharist.html

with his apostles in the course of the Passover meal, Jesus gave the Jewish Passover its definitive meaning. Jesus’ passing over to his father by his death and Resurrection, the new Passover, is anticipated in the Supper and celebrated in the Eucharist, which fulfills the Jewish Passover and anticipates the final Passover of the Church in the glory of the kingdom.

 

[TOmNossor]

boppysbud:

There is a huge difference between Mormon “divinisation” and the Catholic/Orthodox doctrine of Theosis that Mr. Nosser is ignoring here.

There are definitely differences. The foundational underlying difference I have already mentioned, and been declared heretical for saying it. The classification of what LDS deification is by you is not what I believe in so the differences that you highlight are necessarily flawed.

boppysbud:
Mormon teaching is there are a huge number of “godS” (plural) even though they worship and pray to only one of their “godS”.

Actually, LDS doctrine is contained within the 4 standard works. The BOM and the Bible are fairly clear that there is one God. Like those who believe in the threeness of God and like those who believe that in ANY sense men may become gods, LDS must align our beliefs in deification (and in the three-ness of God) with the unity of God statements in our scriptures.

I like this statement from St. Irenaeus to describe who are the “gods.”

Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 3.6.1 “God stood in the in the congregation of the gods, He judges among the gods.” He [here] refers to the Father and the Son, and those who have received the adoption; but these are the Church. (ANF 1.419).

TOm:

And yet we must assume St. Irenaeus had a place in his theology for the concept of the unity of God. It seems St. Irenaeus has uses the term “gods” without much concern about such things.

Let’s see some words from a LDS Prophets. I could quote scripture, but properly aligned with scripture the following teachings are valuable to our understanding of LDS beliefs.

The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p.127

There is a principle connected with this that I think is very important to us as a people and as a Church on the earth. With all the divisions, and all the discontent, and the quarrelings and opposition among the powers on earth, or that have been revealed from heaven, I have never heard that it has ever been revealed to the children of men that there was any division between God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. They are one. They always have been one. They always will be one, from eternity unto eternity. Our Heavenly Father stands at the head, being the author of the salvation of the children of men, having created and peopled the world and given laws to the inhabitants of the earth. This principle is shown unto us by the revelation of the laws which belong to the different kingdoms. There is a celestial kingdom, a terrestrial kingdom, and a telestial kingdom. There is a glory of the sun; a glory of the moon, and a glory of the stars; and as one star differs from another star in glory, so also is the resurrection of the dead. In the celestial kingdom of God there is oneness.—there is union.—MS 52:577 (1890).

TOm:

It seems that “They are one.” It seems in “the celestial kingdom there is oneness.” I am a LDS. I embrace the unity of God, the oneness. I do not accept your characterization of my beliefs. If you will not allow me to define my beliefs, I will suggest to you that I can define your beliefs (and I doubt you would like that).

cont…

 

[TOmNossor]

boppysbud:

Divinisation is the teaching that after death Mormons will become “godS” themselves, if they are “worthy” and follow all the commandments, they will be given their own worlds to run and populate with “spirit children”.

No, LDS do not become “worthy” of divinization. LDS rely upon God to reach down and pull us up.

2 Corinthians 8:9

For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

Again, let us look at what a LDS prophet has said.

John Taylor, Mediation and Atonement, Ch.20

A man, as a man, could arrive at all the dignity that a man was capable of obtaining or receiving; but it needed a God to raise him to the dignity of a God. For this cause it is written, “Now are we the sons of God; and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that when he shall appear we shall be like him.” And how and why like Him? Because, through the instrumentality of the atonement and the adoption, it is made possible for us to become of the family of God, and joint heirs with Jesus Christ; and that as He, the potential instrument, through the oneness that existed between Him and His Father, by reason of obedience to divine law, overcame death, hell and the grave, and sat down upon His Father’s throne, so shall we be able to sit down with Him, even upon His throne. Thus, as it is taught in the Book of Mormon, it must needs be that there be an infinite atonement; and hence of Him, and by Him, and through Him are all things; and through Him do we obtain every blessing, power, right, immunity, salvation and exaltation. He is our God, our Redeemer, our Savior, to whom, with the Father and the Holy Spirit, be eternal and everlasting praises worlds without end.

TOm:

LDS teach that we will have eternal increase. What “eternal increase” is we have speculated upon, but there is no canonized explanation. What is clear from Joseph Smith to today is that God the Father will always be superior to us.

boppysbud:

These “godS” will share the same nature as “heavenly Father”.

TOm:

Now here we have something. Not only do LDS believe that deified men will have the same nature as God, I suggest that we believe that we HAVE the same nature as God. We are not divine due to our separation from God the Father the fount of divinity not because of being a different type of being. This separation is the fallen nature inhabited in the Garden of Eden. Separated from God, we sin and we die, but we are not transformed into a different type of being by the fall. This is most definitely heretical within non-LDS Christianity. While I would suggest it is possible for a Catholic to believe that our nature is CHANGED such that it becomes homousian with God, this is explicitly denied by most Catholics.

cont…

 

[TOmNossor]

boppysbud:

Indeed to Mormons “heavenly Father” was just a human being the same as us with a physical body of “flesh and bone”.

I reject this actually. Heavenly Father does have a body of “flesh and bones,” but I maintain that our canonized scripture demands the following truth.

“There is a God in heaven who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God…” (D&C 20:17).

President Hinckley has recently counseled on speculating about what God being like us means. While some LDS may have taught that God has a Father and was once like us, I have never seen then acknowledge D&C 20:17 when doing this AND the current prophet has claimed that we do not know much about such things. Apparently these speculations were a problem in the Early Church too. Irenaeus like Pres. Hinckley did not say BLASPHEMY, but rather said it is not prudent to speculate about such things.

Irenaeus, Against Heresies 2:27:8, in ANF 1:402-

“The Father, therefore, has been declared by our Lord to excel with respect to knowledge; for this reason, that we, too, as long as we are connected with the scheme of things in this world, should leave perfect knowledge, and such questions [as have been mentioned], to God, and should not by any chance, while we seek to investigate the sublime nature of the Father, fall into the danger of starting the question whether there is another God above God.”

TOm:

If even Jesus Christ is excelled by the Father in knowledge why should we seek to know some of the things being discussed in the church?

I take the counsel of Pres. Hinckley and Irenaeus, look to the canonized words of D&C 20 and recognize that whatever truth is, God has always been God.

boppysbud:

Catholic and Orthodox teaching is that there is only one God and will never be more Gods. We teach that although we may come to share in the energies of God, we will never share in the essence or nature of God.

TOm:

LDS must acknowledge the unity of God too. The nature question is interesting.

I suggest that as the belief in Creation ex Nihilo developed (Justin Martyr was the last to explicitly teach Creation ex Materia) the radical otherness of God was emphasized. The creator vs. creature dichotomy was uncritically accepted. After all how could one go wrong raising God higher and higher above us by emphasizing this separation? Shortly after this the controversies about Christ surfaced. Was Christ God or creature? First Sabellianism, then Arianism, then the Trinity/semi-arianism, then the Augustinian Trinity as non-LDS Christians embrace today tried to solve this question. The question was born of the development of the creator vs. creature dichotomy. It is much easier for LDS to point to the eternal God Jesus Christ having not embraced this error.

So, I see no talk (at least I do not remember any) of the deification of man in Clement, Ignatius, and Polycarp; but I would suggest that St. Justin Marytr is not as far from LDS beliefs as you might like.

Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

boppysbud:

Mormons of course completely ignore all of this and quote CS Lewis, and a lot of the early church fathers as teaching “divinisation” in their books and web sites.

Of course CS Lewis was an orthodox Anglican, and the early church fathers whom the Mormons quote as being on “their side” were all orthodox Christians. They all beleived in only one God, who has no body, and who has always been God. They also beleived that human beings will never become “godS”.

Yet the Mormons blithely ignore all of this, and continue quoting Lewis and the ECFs as beleiving in “divinisation”. This follows the Mormon practice of quoteting snippets of proof texts, in many cases not even entire verses, to make it seem as if the Bible supports their unusual and interesting ideas.

I claim that the ECF are LDS. You are the ones who do not understand what they mean. And actually, I claim that the doctrine of Creation ex Nihilo has polluted the thoughts of most ECF who taught about deification. But they use the term “gods” with reckless abandon anyway.

boppysbud:
And why do the Mormons insist of using the indecipherable KJV version to the exclusion of all other Bibles. Even the BOM which was written in 1830 a few centuries after the KJV style English was obsolete is written in this KJV style English.

But I’m not just picking on the Mormons here, on this site you will find several “Catholics” (I beleive they are really not Catholics at all but SSPV schismatics) insisting on using the Douay-Rhiems with the same obsolete English as the only English Bible.

Is “thou” holier than “you”?

I do not know of any Society of Saint Pius the 5th adherents. I do know an SSPX (10th) Catholic. I would suggest the language of the Bible is the least of your concerns.

Were I to be Catholic I would not be an SSPX Catholic because their rejection of development and understanding of Tradition is fatally flawed. The development of the Trinity or the Papacy could not happen under the views of the SSPX group in my opinion. They may prove valuable in reigning in the horror that is the liberalism of the American Catholic Bishops, but in truth I think both groups are fatally flawed.

I would be a very conservative Catholic who accepted Vatican II, but rejected the rampant liberalism falsely justified by an appeal to Vatican II.

Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

* *

---

*We are not built on the fall of the Jewish faith. Their God is our God. Their Father is our Father. *

Catechism

**

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,

For both Jews and Christians Sacred Scripture is an essential part of their respective liturgies: in the proclamation of the Word of God, the response to this word, prayer of praise and intercession for the living and the dead, invocation of God’s mercy. In its characteristic structure the Liturgy of the Word originates in Jewish prayer. The Liturgy of the Hours and other liturgical texts and formularies, as well as those of our most venerable prayers, including the Lord’s Prayer, have parallels in Jewish prayer. The Eucharistic Prayers also draw their inspiration from the Jewish tradition. The relationship between Jewish liturgy and Christian liturgy, but also their differences in content, are particularly evident in the great feasts of the liturgical year, such as Passover. Christians and Jews both celebrate the Passover. For Jews, it is the Passover of history, tending toward the future; for Christians, it is the Passover fulfilled in the death and Resurrection of Christ, though always in expectation of its definitive consummation.

****By celebrating the Last Supper
catholic-rcia.com/pages/Scriptures/John_six.html

catholic-rcia.com/pages/Eucharist.html

with his apostles in the course of the Passover meal, Jesus gave the Jewish Passover its definitive meaning. Jesus’ passing over to his father by his death and Resurrection, the new Passover, is anticipated in the Supper and celebrated in the Eucharist, which fulfills the Jewish Passover and anticipates the final Passover of the Church in the glory of the kingdom.

I agree. I was only using the words of the poster who said that the CoJCoLDS was built upon the fall of the Catholic Church.

I suggest that the authority of the Jewish church was no longer in tune with God. They continued to exist parallel to the Early Christian Church for a number of years, but they were apostate. This is the parallel I mean.
There was some validity of this Jewish authority before the apostles were give authority from Christ, but I would suggest that if it was complete and properly aligned authority, Ciaphus would have embraced Jesus Christ.

Charity, TOm

 

[catholic-rcia]

When I think of the Jewish faith in God I am at peace. They are like a big brother, as big as the Old Testament, as big as the New. I imagine Jesus with Jospeh in the Temple as the Holy Scriptures were read. Jesus was listening to them speak about Himself. Wow!

”Regarding three heavens”
Let me speak from the heart:

Tom, the story about the thief on the Cross is one that I have come to love. I also love the story about the Prodigal son. One is real, the other is only a story, but yet it to, is so real. It is about me, it is about our Church. We can be bad all of our lives, and then at the last moment, while attempting to take just one last breath we can turn to Christ, in all honesty, and ask for mercy. He will always grant it. This is a time for heaven to rejoice. “Yes, he made it!!! The others are safe, and he made it as well" Not to a lesser degree of glory than the ninety nine that were found earlier. But rather as the Father embraced His prodigal son, so does the Father embrace a thief that once was nailed to a Cross. He comes into full glory with the Father, into the same glory that Christ has always shared with His Father from all eternity. Adopted through love, never to return back from the dark pit he was delivered from. Not by anything he did, but by the Cross of our Savior. The only progression is into Christ. It took being nailed to that Cross for his pride to melt into nothingness. It took being nailed to that Cross that his humility was turned to humbleness. It took being nailed to that Cross that his fallen nature was cured. He touched the hand of His Savior and he asked to be cured from himself. Only Jesus has this power as Jesus is this very power. Align yourself with Him and you will come to know your littleness. He in all aspects of your life becomes your very life. There is only one Jesus; He is the creator of all things. It IS He who is loved by God the Father, for He is the Fathers only One!!!. Come into Christ and we to will be loved forever. Together we will be one with Him. The Body of Christ, the Church here on earth has the healing tools to get us home. This Church is Him, bringing his created Children Home one at a time on a Cross upon His back. Do not forsake this Church in anyway, as it is Christ Himself you will forsake. There is no more Righteous than those in this Church, because none of us are. And by God Tom,… as we take Holy Communion into ourselves, as we gaze up at the Cross in our Church, believe me we have come to know this. We can gaze upon each other standing in the line of confession; all of us know this place. It does nor bring scorn of any kind, but rather brings peace of every kind. We are called to be the last, so we know this line well. We are Catholics who make the sign of the Cross upon our foreheads, upon our lips, and yes upon our hearts. Learn what the Saints of the Church learned, give their lives a chance. They are not a better breed of people, they just got it. The bond that they share is breathtaking for they were able to get out of themselves, if only for a moment.

Here is the one Saint that brought me to Christ. It is a real story, that really took place in the America’s. But you will never see this Saint’s life promoted in your Church. You have to ask yourself why not? Would it be because it may be some good grain among the weeds? Give your heart a chance on Him. Here he is:

http://catholic-rcia.com/pages/cJouges_page.html

 

[catholic-rcia]

Tom, I hope you read the Story. I have to go to work. I hardly have the time for this, but when I do life is very good. Leave you with this regarding the three degrees of heaven.

The Devil wants to make us think we have to run out and earn the gift of life that God gives freely. Satan tries to turn it into a game, that is all he has here on earth. If you do this and that you will have eternal life as if we need to jump over hurdles, as if we have the power! But this game is already over; Satan’s game was defeated by way of the Cross of Christ. Even after we die like the thief on the Cross Satan still wants us to believe that we have to earn another step closer to God, to another level of heaven. Our God does not play such games with us. Christ opened the door for all of us, all we need to do is take his hand as we are now and be led in by Him. This relationship blossoms through being honest with yourself, your failings, your need of Him.

When I was fourteen all I knew was the Mormon Faith. Under an Oak tree I met a young black haired girl from Montréal. In her blood was the blood of the Mohawk, Huron and French. Little did I know then the connection of Issac Jouges. Not only did God give me the women that I would spend the rest of my life with, he also gave me a real story through her that would lead me to the revelation of Christ and a glimpse of the communion of Saints. Saints that I did not know existed, family members who I have come to know and love. I was once told here in Utah that Catholics pray to dead Saints. This is ok, they just do not understand Trinity, the body of Christ (1 Cor 12)

 

[TOmNossor]

catholic-rcia:

”Regarding three heavens”

Let me speak from the heart:
Tom, the story about the thief on the Cross is one that I have come to love. I also love the story about the Prodigal son. One is real, the other is only a story, but yet it to, is so real. It is about me, it is about our Church. We can be bad all of our lives, and then at the last moment, while attempting to take just one last breath we can turn to Christ, in all honesty, and ask for mercy. He will always grant it. This is a time for heaven to rejoice. “Yes, he made it!!! The others are safe, and he made it as well" Not to a lesser degree of glory than the ninety nine that were found earlier. But rather as the Father embraced His prodigal son, so does the Father embrace a thief that once was nailed to a Cross. He comes into full glory with the Father, into the same glory that Christ has always shared with His Father from all eternity. Adopted through love, never to return back from the dark pit he was delivered from. Not by anything he did, but by the Cross of our Savior. The only progression is into Christ. It took being nailed to that Cross for his pride to melt into nothingness. It took being nailed to that Cross that his humility was turned to humbleness. It took being nailed to that Cross that his fallen nature was cured. He touched the hand of His Savior and he asked to be cured from himself. Only Jesus has this power as Jesus is this very power. Align yourself with Him and you will come to know your littleness. He in all aspects of your life becomes your very life. There is only one Jesus; He is the creator of all things. It IS He who is loved by God the Father, for He is the Fathers only One!!!. Come into Christ and we to will be loved forever. Together we will be one with Him. The Body of Christ, the Church here on earth has the healing tools to get us home. This Church is Him, bringing his created Children Home one at a time on a Cross upon His back. Do not forsake this Church in anyway, as it is Christ Himself you will forsake. There is no more Righteous than those in this Church, because none of us are. And by God Tom,… as we take Holy Communion into ourselves, as we gaze up at the Cross in our Church, believe me we have come to know this. We can gaze upon each other standing in the line of confession; all of us know this place. It does nor bring scorn of any kind, but rather brings peace of every kind. We are called to be the last, so we know this line well. We are Catholics who make the sign of the Cross upon our foreheads, upon our lips, and yes upon our hearts. Learn what the Saints of the Church learned, give their lives a chance. They are not a better breed of people, they just got it. The bond that they share is breathtaking for they were able to get out of themselves, if only for a moment.
…It is a real story… But you will never see this Saint’s life promoted in your Church. You have to ask yourself why not? Would it be because it may be some good grain among the weeds? Give your heart a chance on Him.

Catholic-rcia,

Part of me does not know how to respond to the things you share with me. I think they are beautiful and I think they come from your heart. I have recommended to Catholics before that it is through the Eucharist that I can be invited to the Catholic Church, but I am not of the opinion that it is possible for me to cease to be a LDS.

As you may be able to tell I am very intellectually committed to the CoJCoLDS. 3 years ago or so that was about all I had. Today I have spiritual reasons for being a LDS as well. It was the reasonableness of the Catholic Church that ultimately lead to my need to receive spiritual confirmation. I feel like I have “fatal flaw” reasons to dismiss Prot. and EO. I do not feel like the RCC properly understood has internal contradictions with doctrines or history. As a committed Christian this leaves me as either RC or LDS. My view of history and doctrine points me to the CoJCoLDS and so does my spiritual confirmation.

I read about Saint Isaac Jouges. Surely there is such a thing as extraordinary grace. I would not suggest that Saint Thomas Aquinas (my favorite) or Saint Isaac Jouges did not partake of extraordinary grace. However, I also would not suggest that John Grohberg has not partaken of extraordinary grace. Evidence generally suggests to me that extraordinary grace is not afforded only to those who are properly baptized per Catholic or per LDS beliefs.
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

Catholic-rcia,

I would like to respond to a few things from your post. I believe that we are saved by what we become. The thief on the cross may have become in an instant one who would accept celestial glory. It will be his choice. The wages are the same for him who works all day as for him who works the last hour. It is about who you are not about how much you have done. Through doing we unite with Christ and BECOME, but there is no balance beam with good works and bad works that determine our salvation or our exaltation.

The Challenge to Become.

I believe that the CoJCoLDS is a Christ lead organization that is likely supreme in developing humans such that they BECOME. I believe that committed Catholics are developing such that they may BECOME. I believe that committed Jews are developing such that they may BECOME. I believe that Jehovah’s Witnesses are developing such that they may BECOME.

I believe that lukewarm LDS, Catholic, Jews, and Jehovah’s Witnesses (if there is any such thing as a lukewarm JW) are not progressing toward God as God would wish.

I believe that after death what we have BECOME will determine what kingdom we choose. Errors in understanding that surely exist in all beliefs structures and every individual will be corrected through post-death learning.

I believe that ordinances will be literally and vicariously preformed for all and accepted by those who BECAME one who would accept such ordinances. (I believe this is a more scriptural and in some ways historical belief than is the belief in the Baptism of Desire or the Baptism of Blood).

I believe God has communicated to me that the CoJCoLDS is His church and I should align myself with it. I however have never received a communication that tells me that others cannot be inspired of Him to walk a different path. I generally believe the culmination of any inspired path will result in the acceptance of the ordinances preformed with proper authority, but I know God’s ways are beyond mine.

I embrace a concept of the “invisible church.” All who are saved will be part of Christ’s Church which is most correctly and visibly seen in the CoJCoLDS. Very personally I believe that it is the subordination of ones will to the will of God as best as it can be understood by said one that results in ones alignment with Christ’s Church. Doctrinal misunderstanding can hinder ones path, but desire to be with Christ will overcome errors in understanding.

I want to close with a question for you. If you can suggest that you are at peace when you think of your Jewish brothers, how can you not be at peace when you think of your LDS brothers? And since I do not know the LDS you know what component of my belief leads you to not be at peace with me?

I am fully orthopraxic (unity/correctness of practice) with the CoJCoLDS, but I do not believe there is a very strict orthodoxy within the CoJCoLDS. I follow the Prophet and the Spirit and believe the truths I glean from the scriptures. I doubt you could define the Trinity away from me (what is one-being-ness; what is three-person-ness). I would be surprised if you were willing to declare my rejection of creation ex nihilo as a damning belief (especially since that would damn St. Justin Martyr).

Charity, TOm

 

[oat_soda]

isn’t it interseting that the mormons, JW’s, and muslims, do not believe in the trinity. By reducing the son to the archangel michael (JW) or a prophet (islam) or to a seprate god (mormons) they make the Holy Spirit into a force. they also do not believe heaven is where we have the beatific vision and get to see God face to face. Fr. Pacwa pointed out that they make heaven like it is winning a prize on the price is right.

mormons-(door number 1) you get your own planet where you’ll be a god and get to populate it with your multiple wives.

JW-(door number 2) no heaven after 1934, instead you live in a perfect world with no drugs, fear, suffering… etc.

muslims-(door number 3) 70 virgins who regain their virginity every day, fountains of wine and honey.

i guess if i had to choose between these three prizes i’d have a hard time rejecting 70 virgins but being a god of my own planet is hard to beat. mormonism it is!!!

 

[TOmNossor]

catholic-rcia:
Tom, I hope you read the Story. I have to go to work. I hardly have the time for this, but when I do life is very good.

I hope you will not be solely frustrated by me. Sometimes I feel like I help on these forums and other times I feel like nobody listens. I hope you do not feel like I am not listening to you. Had I already not recognized the alive and dead saints within the Catholic Church you would prompt me to do so. You seem to be further confirmation of this truth.

catholic-rcia:
Leave you with this regarding the three degrees of heaven.

The Devil wants to make us think we have to run out and earn the gift of life that God gives freely. Satan tries to turn it into a game, that is all he has here on earth. If you do this and that you will have eternal life as if we need to jump over hurdles, as if we have the power! But this game is already over; Satan’s game was defeated by way of the Cross of Christ. Even after we die like the thief on the Cross Satan still wants us to believe that we have to earn another step closer to God, to another level of heaven. Our God does not play such games with us. Christ opened the door for all of us, all we need to do is take his hand as we are now and be led in by Him. This relationship blossoms through being honest with yourself, your failings, your need of Him.

I agree with every word that you just posted. I have posted earlier in this thread that we are saved by grace alone (through faith and works). I have an elders quorum lesson that I gave about 3 months ago that would probably shock you. It was received quite well and I have yet to be called a heretic. We do not earn our salvation or our exaltation. Also see the quote I posted about Christ’s role in our deification.

That being said there is a danger in not “work[ing] out your salvation with fear and trembling.” There is only one man who knows the full weight of temptation. The rest of us have all given in. I believe the knowledge that we cannot do it is not sufficient if it is intellectual knowledge. The knowledge that we cannot do it must be experiential knowledge. And when we have it we can turn to Christ and experience the victory that was impossible alone. The CoJCoLDS and the Catholic Church generally do not cheat their adherents of this experiential lesson. It is critical (perhaps even foundational) to truly being born again.

catholic-rcia:
When I was fourteen all I knew was the Mormon Faith. Under an Oak tree I met a young black haired girl from Montréal. In her blood was the blood of the Mohawk, Huron and French. Little did I know then the connection of Issac Jouges. Not only did God give me the women that I would spend the rest of my life with, he also gave me a real story through her that would lead me to the revelation of Christ and a glimpse of the communion of Saints. Saints that I did not know existed, family members who I have come to know and love.

I have no reason to suspect that God was not involved in that of which you speak. Part of me sees your committed Catholicism to be far more of a blessing than the form of Mormonism you left behind. My story would be quite similar were it viewed from an ecumenical Jew’s perspective.

catholic-rcia:
I was once told here in Utah that Catholics pray to dead Saints. This is ok, they just do not understand Trinity, the body of Christ (1 Cor 12)

I regularly attempt to correct LDS when they misrepresent other religions, especially the Catholic Church. I have explained latria and dulia and the concept of intercessory prayers. We do not do well when we bare false witness even when it is due to our misunderstanding.

Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

oat soda:

isn’t it interseting that the mormons, JW’s, and muslims, do not believe in the trinity. By reducing the son to the archangel michael (JW) or a prophet (islam) or to a seprate god (mormons) they make the Holy Spirit into a force. they also do not believe heaven is where we have the beatific vision and get to see God face to face. Fr. Pacwa pointed out that they make heaven like it is winning a prize on the price is right.

mormons-(door number 1) you get your own planet where you’ll be a god and get to populate it with your multiple wives.

JW-(door number 2) no heaven after 1934, instead you live in a perfect world with no drugs, fear, suffering… etc.

muslims-(door number 3) 70 virgins who regain their virginity every day, fountains of wine and honey.

i guess if i had to choose between these three prizes i’d have a hard time rejecting 70 virgins but being a god of my own planet is hard to beat. mormonism it is!!!

Oat Soda,

You are bearing false witness. I do not know much about Moslems, but you misrepresent LDS and JWs.

A couple of simple demonstrations are that LDS do claim that heaven (the highest heaven) is associated with being with God the Father and seeing Him as He is, and JWs do believe in heaven for the 144,000.

Some of your other LDS assessments I believe are ultimately flawed, but they have some precedence. It would be better were you to all living LDS to define our religion for you least you accept what I might define concerning your religion from the words of dead Catholics.

Also you speak of development within the JW religion as if that invalidates it (or I am presuming that you do this by mentioning 1934). And while doing this you continue to ignore where I showed you evidence of your own beliefs developing.

It seems that you have no interest in dialogue, but would rather change to new topics after your previous position has been shown to be flawed.

I invite you to address beliefs I actually hold without mocking or name calling. There are differences between Catholics and LDS, but you current posting habits do not seem to contribute to substantive dialogue concerning those differences.

Charity, TOm

 

[catholic-rcia]

I was witness to a young Girl her in Logan as she found God. She did not jump for joy as if she had become aware of new things, of new revelations. What happened to her one night in our little Parish here in Logan was for the first time she realized that God loved her yesterday as much as He loved her on that night and as much as he will love her tomorrow. That she could turn to him in her sin and be embraced by Him lovingly. All we could do is hold her, cry with her. You see, she never felt good enough.

A different kind of relationship with Jesus started for her on that night. She no longer needed to try and do good things seeking approval from others and from her own inner self. With Christ, through Him these things would come naturally in there proper time, for His goals, not for her goals, she had been released of that duty. … . It’s to much, it’s asking for to much. She realized that she would never be good enough, that the only thing that mattered was that Jesus is. She came to understand things that others before herself had learned and passed on such as :

When we begin to know intimacy with God and to accept others and ourselves as we are, we then begin to speak about “happy brokenness.” Our inner struggle is no longer such a burden, but a way to the truth, to the light, to the life. How could we ever become children of God, embraced by the love of the Father, the Son and the Spirit, and be let into the intimacy of the triune life if God hadn’t shown compassion with us, as we are? Through Jesus’ incarnation we come to know about the inner life of God. It is in our fragile and mortal flesh that God’s original blessing is revealed to us.
–Fr. Henri J.M. Nouwen

I once gave a homeless man my coat and it made me feel great inside. Little did I realize that it was Christ that gave that man a coat on that cold day. He used my pride to make a good. But now I know Him, I am no longer fooled by my fallen nature. My family was once helped by an Irish Catholic Priest in Florida. When I went to give him thanks and a hug he said “no” and then turned and walked away. I understand. It is better this way.

God Bless

Rich

 

[AugustineH354]

Hello Tom,

Long time no chat. Felt like taking a break from my book today and visit some of my favorite mb’s.

I would like to change gears just a bit, and ask a few pointed questions:

First, giving the depth and breadth of Catholic thought I find little (some exceptions include: God the Father having a body of flesh and bones, creatio ex materia, church government) in the additional Mormon scriptures that has not already been reflected on by one or more of our Catholic Fathers. This leads me to ask: From the LDS perspective, why did God the Father remove the “keys of the kingdom” from the early Church? (In other words, if apostles are required for Christ’s Church to retain its full authority, why did ordination of apostles cease in the first century?)

Second, is there any indication in the writings of the second century Church Fathers (or even in the writings of the second century heretics) that the office of apostle was to be perpetuated?

Third, rather than the office of apostles, does not one discern apostolic succession as being the norm in the second century.

Grace and peace,

David

 

[oat_soda]

Parley Pratt, former mormon apostle, understanding of the Holy Spirit is a riot

The Holy Spirit is in a class with magnetism or electricity. He is a divine fluid, composed of material atoms or particles, or in other words an impersonal

energy or cosmic force through which God acts” (Parley Pratt, Key to Science of Theology, 1855 edition, p. 29, emp. added). magnetism??? electricity!!!.. but “divine fluid” is the best, that cracks me up. monty python couldn’t do better. it’s like those elixirs they would sell back in the day to cure you from general malaise or consumption or the science behind blood-letting when your sick.

 

[tkdnick]

oat soda:

Parley Pratt, former mormon apostle, understanding of the Holy Spirit is a riot magnetism??? electricity!!!.. but “divine fluid” is the best, that cracks me up. monty python couldn’t do better. it’s like those elixirs they would sell back in the day to cure you from general malaise or consumption or the science behind blood-letting when your sick.

From looking at the stance of the LDS posters on these forums, and especially TOm, you should know better than to throw out a quote from an “apostle”. You should know that they’re going to deny that this is or ever was LDS doctrine.

 

[oat_soda]

You should know that they’re going to deny that this is or ever was LDS doctrine.

i know. they probably wouldn’t have lasted this long as a mormon if they didn’t live outside of reality in a fantasy world.

here is some more wacky mormon facts. this is found in doctrines and convenants

“Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation. For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord which shall fill the house” (84:4-5).

it’s so obvious he ripped this off of the gospels when Jesus talked about the temple being destroyed. he even uses the word “verily” or “amen amen”. i can’t believe anyone would fall for this. it’s hilarious, the guy was totally nuts.

by the way, there never was a mormon temple built in indepedence missouri.

 

[TOmNossor]

AugustineH354:

Hello Tom,

Long time no chat. Felt like taking a break from my book today and visit some of my favorite mb’s.

Hello! Hello! Your book is at the top of my reading list as soon as you are done. I just got The Mysteries of Christianity by Scheeben from the Newman center yesterday. I have visited and read from it a couple of times, but decided I should try to take it home and finish it.

AugustineH354:

First, giving the depth and breadth of Catholic thought I find little (some exceptions include: God the Father having a body of flesh and bones, creatio ex materia, church government) in the additional Mormon scriptures that has not already been reflected on by one or more of our Catholic Fathers. This leads me to ask: From the LDS perspective, why did God the Father remove the “keys of the kingdom” from the early Church? (In other words, if apostles are required for Christ’s Church to retain its full authority, why did ordination of apostles cease in the first century?)

I am unaware of any authoritative statement on this (as I am sure you know). Barker and Talmage both point to development of the Church and sins of her leaders as causal in the apostasy (at least I would think they would assign these as causes and not just symptoms). I recognize that neither development nor sinful leaders are “fatal flaws” within Catholicism as defined by Newman. Some might and some do, but I personally do not wish to defend all the behavior of LDS leaders or try to explain how development removed authority (the argument that development and/or some developments are “fatal flaws” could get off the ground, but I am not sure how this could be a cause and not just a symptom).

My view is that the time and place when God came to this earth was unique. Never before nor since and in no other group would a people kill their God a man such as Jesus Christ. As a side effect or as another divinely ordained component (I lean toward the latter) of this time was the apostasy. Jesus Christ was born, died, and was resurrected. His bride was formed, apostatized, and was restored.

The Church of God contains sacred ordinances/doctrines that are not publicly discussed. The environment of the Early Church was not conducive to the prevention of the perversion of these OR the non-sacred ordinances/doctrines. The difficulties of preserving public and non-public doctrines in their purity made the prevention of a perversion too difficult. Not too difficult in that God could not do it, but too difficult in that the degree of divine intervention required to do it would have limited the ability of many to walk by faith. Agency would be compromised. God’s foreknowledge of this communicated to the apostles lead to the ceasing of ordaining of apostles.

The fullness of the gospel and the church was to prevail (Math 16:18), but “another place” a lesser organization “much more humble” would replace the fullness very early (3rd Vision of Hermas 7:6). I believe the Early Church was completed. I believe the Catholic Church was where “they shall be fitted into another place much more humble…”

The above are my attempts to answer, “WHY?” Scott (Pacumeni) hopes to deal with some of these thing (and he and Bickmore are the source of much of the above) in his book. I hope your book does not take as long as his has.

cont …