Smithsonian statement on Book of Mormon

[cestusdei]

Tom,
Christians believe that Jesus is the second person of the Holy Trinity. Fully human and fully divine. Our beliefs are predicated on the Trinitarian concept of God. The LDS do not believe this. That is something that is vital to be “hung up” on. It is the essence of why we do not accept Mormons as Christians.

 

[TOmNossor]

Frances:

When Tertullian denied that Matt 16:18 applies to the Pope, he happened to be a Montanist heretic who denied ALL ecclesial authority; and, in denying that Matt 16 applies to the Papacy, Tertullian was responding to a decree issued by Pope Callistus I (c. 220 A.D.)

TOm:

No, that is not correct. The quote from which I show how Tertullian specifically called the Pope’s emerging authority a “usurpation” is from On Modesty. It was written during Tertullian’s Catholic days before 206AD when he began to be influenced by the Montanists (he likely did not leave communion with the church until 211AD). The quote is found on post #344.

Frances:

Likewise, as I said, the Shepherd is, a) not binding on Christians, given that it was never considered to be canonical (but an example of private revelation at best; and b) it is a work of apocalyptic literature and so not literal in nature, and is, of course, prone to numerous possible interpretations, including false ones - namely, its being used to try to validate strange Mormon doctrines.

TOm:

There may be some room to quibble about whether Irenaeus spoke using the term that we use, “canon.” However, Irenaeus was clear that Hermas was SCRIPTURE.

I have already shown how it does not fit properly as apocalyptic literature.

Frances:

Please! “Clear” according to whom? Since when is any work of apocalyptic literature (e.g. Ezekiel, Daniel, John’s Revelation) “clear.” That’s the whole point of apocalyptic literature - that it be unclear to those unfamiliar with the context and the Tradition behind it. And this applies to you, I’m sorry to say, since you are clearly disconnected from the mindset of the early Church.

TOm:

Also, if you have read Hermas it is similar in some respects to the parables Jesus taught were he also interpreted them. The building of the Tower is interpreted in the vision. While Revelations is open to many possible interpretations, the third vision that I quote from is interpreted as part of the vision.

Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

cestusdei:

Christians believe that Jesus is the second person of the Holy Trinity. Fully human and fully divine.

TOm:

I believe this too and think I have said as much in this thread. I just also believe that Jesus Christ and God the Father appeared to Joseph Smith and told him of the apostasy.

cestusdei:

That is something that is vital to be “hung up” on.

TOm:

As I explained earlier, I have yet to see Biblical or even Early Church ways of deciding which concept of the Trinity is more correct. Plantinga constructs what he calls the Social Trinity. He claims it is in alignment with the first 4 councils of the church. I believe LDS beliefs properly understood also comprise a Social Trinity.

cestusdei:

It is the essence of why we do not accept Mormons as Christians.

Actually, it would be more correct to say that YOU do not accept Mormons as Christians. Or perhaps you could mean that it is the essence of why Catholics do not accept Mormon Baptism.

I have yet to find an authoritative Catholic source that specifically denies that LDS are Christians.

Here is a Catholic priest (not strictly an authoritative source I know) who does not seem to have problems recognizing that LDS are part of the Catholic Church.

“There are sects who, while they do not profess the traditional Creed, still seek to follow Jesus. These groups like the Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses. They are part of the Church.” (Fr. Richard Chilson, Full Christianity, p. 85)

I am becoming increasingly aware that what I am doing here is not achieving the purposes for which I hope. I desire that LDS specifically and other religious structures generally are not marginalized by those who do not adhere to those structures. I have thought (and continue to think) that the Catholic Church stands in a position of strength and does not need to unduly marginalized LDS and JW and … as perhaps Protestants may be required to do. I believe there is truth in these words,

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Six 1843–44, p.313:

If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way. Do you believe in Jesus Christ and the Gospel of salvation which he revealed? So do I. Christians should cease wrangling and contending with each other, and cultivate the principles of union and friendship in their midst; and they will do it before the millennium can be ushered in and Christ takes possession of His kingdom.

I also believe there is truth in the words of Catholic-RCIA in post #467. Probably custom truth for me.

If I am specifically asked to respond to some aspect of future responses, I will try to do this. (I will read for the next few days for sure). I am going to try to not respond in places were it is not requested. I have been convicted as of recent that I contend more than is appropriate when I defend. I am surely burdened by my pride.

Charity, TOm

 

[cestusdei]

Tom,
Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail, so the lds is predicated on Jesus being wrong. You are correct that we don’t accept lds baptism. We believe baptism is what makes someone Christian. So we accept most Protestant baptisms. The fact that we don’t accept Mormon baptism is itself a ruling that Mormons are not Christian. Our belief in the Trinity is summed up in the Nicene Creed. Mormons don’t accept it (and no Constantine was not an Arian, he was baptized by Pope Sylvester). When the lds church accepts the Nicene Creed then we might need to revisit the question. I would remind you that Mormons rebaptize their converts. This tacitly continues the Mormon belief that we are apostates. Frankly I wish the Mormon church would accept the historic Christian creeds and move within the bounds of orthodoxy. But I don’t see how that would be possible.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I tried posting this a few days ago, but I think it didnt go through.

Anyway, what version of the Bible do the lds use? I dont remember them having their own version, so what version do they teach from?

Second of all what is significant about Utah to Mormons? I know that they fled there, but I mean in a Prophetic/Religious way. What do they think about the fact that Utah is one state in fifty adhering to a non-mormon gov, with no where near the history, influence, gov, power, ect of places like Jerusalem and Rome?

 

[catholic-rcia]

When we speak not in the light of Christ we lash out. This hurts others when Catholics do this. It makes it harder to bring the light of Trinity to another. What they see in this kind of talk is not of Christ. Prayer and only lots of prayer can keep us in the light of Christ. I would suggest to some here…Pray more.

Keep this quote in mind as you read on.

Tom Wrote:
The references to hats and invisible gold plates could be your attempt to be clever. I believe I have said things I should not in an attempt to be clever. I will continue to point out that making me sound silly is not a solid way of refuting my beliefs, and perhaps you can do this a little less.

The following is an example of how a people can be misled. Jesus gaze was not set upon a lost people with anger. His gaze was set on the devil. Not in anger, rather in loving victory over it. A Victory for all of us who turn to Him offering our complete selves to Him. Him, who carries us home as a Cross upon His back. A lost lamb upon His back.
www.catholic-rcia.com

LUCIFER-GOD DOCTRINE****

LDS

More to follow

Since the founding of the Mormon Church there has been a sharp separation between Mormonism and orthodox Christianity. In 1842 the Mormon Prophet Joseph Smith made this serious division between Mormonism and other churches very plain when he claimed that Jesus Christ Himself told him that he "must join none of them *, for **they were all wrong***; and... that **all **their creeds were **an abomination **in his sight; that those professors were **all corrupt;**..." (*Pearl** of Great Price*, Joseph Smith 2:19) A decade after Joseph Smith's death, Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt answered some questions about other churches:

Q. Who founded the Roman Catholic Church?

A. The Devil, through the medium of Apostates, who subverted the whole order of God…

Q. But did not the first Protestant Reformers receive their ordination and authority from the Catholics?

A. Yes: and in this manner they received all the authority that their mother church was in possession of; and the mother having derived her authority from the Devil, could only impart that which his Satanic majesty was pleased to bestow upon her. (The Seer, page 205)

In 1958 Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie wrote the following under the heading **"Church of the Devil"**:

1. All churches or organizations… which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God; and 2. The** Roman Catholic Church** specifically — singled out, set apart, described, and designated as being “most abominable above all other churches.” ( 1 Ne. 13:5)… There is no salvation outside this one true Church,… Any church or organization of any kind whatever which satisfies the innate religious longings of man and keeps him from coming to the saving truths of Christ and his gospel is therefore not of God. Such agencies have been and are founded or fostered by the devil who is the enemy to all righteousness. (Mormon Doctrine, page 129)

 

[TOmNossor]

Cestusdei, Thank you for your comments.

Catholic Dude, you asked:
Catholic Dude:

Anyway, what version of the Bible do the lds use? I dont remember them having their own version, so what version do they teach from?

King James Version.
Catholic Dude:

Second of all what is significant about Utah to Mormons? I know that they fled there, but I mean in a Prophetic/Religious way. What do they think about the fact that Utah is one state in fifty adhering to a non-mormon gov, with no where near the history, influence, gov, power, ect of places like Jerusalem and Rome?

Doctrinally there is nothing significant about Utah. I have never thought about your second question.

Charity, TOm

 

[oat_soda]

Jesus Christ and God the Father appeared to Joseph Smith and told him of the apostasy.

wow, he had the beatific vision!!! the first and only person to ever see God and live! that’s totally wrong. so when st. john says “no one has ever seen God. The only Son, God, who is at the Father’s side, has revealed him” (john 1:18) he should have had a foot note that says, “with the exception of joseph smith in 1830 in upstate new york”.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

ok, so they use the KJV,

why? it was translated when, 1611, way before JS & LDS. What about all this revelation and apostasy stuff? 1611 is about 250 years late

 

[Catholic_Dude]

heres another 101 for me:
1)what is the Doctrine and Covenants about, is it the official “handbook” or something?
2)Same questions as above, except with the Pearl Of Great Price, whats it about? ( is it named after the story Jesus said about the guy who finds a valuable pearl and sells everything for it?)

 

[Tmaque]

Catholic Dude:

heres another 101 for me:
1)what is the Doctrine and Covenants about, is it the official “handbook” or something?
2)Same questions as above, except with the Pearl Of Great Price, whats it about? ( is it named after the story Jesus said about the guy who finds a valuable pearl and sells everything for it?)

The Doctrine & Covenants is basically a book of revelations received by Joseph Smith. In it are many of the basic beliefs and understandings of the LDS faith. It also serves as a history of sorts for the early church.

Up until 1896 the teachings in the D&C were followed to the letter. Not so now. The LDS church today picks and chooses which revelations to believe. For instance, the law of plural marriage, which according to 132nd section is REQUIRED for entrance to the Celestial kingdom is totally ignored. As is the requirement that a person be non-african to hold the priesthood.

There is also the Word of Wisdom which is not a commandment according to the D&C but the LDS church today says that it is a commandment and withholds it’s most important ordinances(sacraments) from those who don’t follow it (no coffee, tea, alcohol, tobacco).

As you can see, the LDS church treats it’s doctrine and even it’s own sacred scripture like a piece of clay that can be continually molded to fit the times.

The Pearl of Great Price is a book with the writings of Abraham and Moses(believe it or not). Joseph Smith translated them from some papyrus sheets he bought from an antiquities dealer. Modern egyptologists have unequivocally stated that the papyrus he translated was a text of Egyptian burial rites. With all due respect, the PofGP is a total fraud. Any reasonable, honest person has to admit that.

 

[TOmNossor]

Catholic Dude:

ok, so they use the KJV,

why? it was translated when, 1611, way before JS & LDS. What about all this revelation and apostasy stuff? 1611 is about 250 years late

I assume you are directly questioning me here so I will again answer.
In post #217 I dealt with this.
The KJV is sufficient by not inerrant.
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

Catholic Dude:

heres another 101 for me:
1)what is the Doctrine and Covenants about, is it the official “handbook” or something?
2)Same questions as above, except with the Pearl Of Great Price, whats it about? ( is it named after the story Jesus said about the guy who finds a valuable pearl and sells everything for it?)

Catholic Dude,

Todd thinks he has answered this, but he has made at least one blatant error in his post. Some of what he says is correct though.

The D&C is a list of continuing revelation to the church.

The name does come from the valuable pearl.

It is a collection of additional canonized scripture that came through Joseph Smith.

We believe they are associated with Abraham, Moses, and Joseph Smith’s History (also the Article of Faith are included).

Charity, TOm

 

[Catholic_Dude]

WOW! I just got back from this site. Now I have never looked into any site like this before, yet I just had to keep reading! I read “The Conversion” and “The Bible and the BoM page”! Almost everything that people have been saying about no proof, made-up, misquotes and stuff is confirmed more solid than I have ever seen. I am scared, this is scary! Does the average Mormon even know/believe this? How did this happen!!!

(these are all very short, i suggest you read them!)
bibleman.net/My_conversion_story.htm
bibleman.net/The_Bible.htm
bibleman.net/The_Book_of_Mormon.htm
bibleman.net/The_Last_Days.htm
bibleman.net/The_Churches_of_God.htm

This is amazing, now I know he says that he doenst speak for the lds church, it is still some powerful stuff!

 

[TOmNossor]

Catholic Dude:

WOW! I just got back from this site. Now I have never looked into any site like this before, yet I just had to keep reading! I read “The Conversion” and “The Bible and the BoM page”! Almost everything that people have been saying about no proof, made-up, misquotes and stuff is confirmed more solid than I have ever seen. I am scared, this is scary! Does the average Mormon even know/believe this? How did this happen!!!

(these are all very short, i suggest you read them!)
bibleman.net/My_conversion_story.htm
bibleman.net/The_Bible.htm
bibleman.net/The_Book_of_Mormon.htm
bibleman.net/The_Last_Days.htm
bibleman.net/The_Churches_of_God.htm

This is amazing, now I know he says that he doenst speak for the lds church, it is still some powerful stuff!

The average Mormon knows that many tell lies about their church.

Many Mormon’s know significantly more about our history and doctrine than the one sided presentation on sites such as this.

As a Catholic I would think you would recognize that those who do not hold a faith often misrepresent it and occasionally blatantly lie in so doing.

You will find responses to all those arguments, if you look for them.

Charity, TOm

 

[Tmaque]

TOmNossor:

Catholic Dude,

Todd thinks he has answered this, but he has made at least one blatant error in his post. Some of what he says is correct though.

The D&C is a list of continuing revelation to the church.

The name does come from the valuable pearl.

It is a collection of additional canonized scripture that came through Joseph Smith.

We believe they are associated with Abraham, Moses, and Joseph Smith’s History (also the Article of Faith are included).

Charity, TOm

Tom, I left the LDS Church about 17 years ago so I may have forgotten a thing or two, but the general thrust of the post is accurate. Please tell me which of my points is a “blatant error”.
Thanks.

 

[Tmaque]

TOmNossor:

The average Mormon knows that many tell lies about their church.

Many Mormon’s know significantly more about our history and doctrine than the one sided presentation on sites such as this.

As a Catholic I would think you would recognize that those who do not hold a faith often misrepresent it and occasionally blatantly lie in so doing.

You will find responses to all those arguments, if you look for them.

Charity, TOm

Tom,

These are all pro-LDS websites. I’m surprised you didn’t even look at them prior to commenting about them.

 

[TOmNossor]

Tmaque:

Tom,

These are all pro-LDS websites. I’m surprised you didn’t even look at them prior to commenting about them.

You are absolutely correct.
I once thought that I was escaping the truth of “LDS have a persecution complex.” I have not consiously thought this for a good period, and things like this show me I cannot.
I apologize.
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

Tmaque:

Tom, I left the LDS Church about 17 years ago so I may have forgotten a thing or two, but the general thrust of the post is accurate. Please tell me which of my points is a “blatant error”.
Thanks.

After being shown to be a ninny, I will merely answer this quesiton. I had posted this in light of your statement about knowing facts, logic, and not denying the truth on another thread.

Concerning the error that I thought/think was “blatant” it was associated with saying that the D&C speaks against Blacks and the Priesthood. I am unaware that it does. In fact, I think previous leaders INTERPRETED scripture in this way (but not the D&C).

Charity, TOm

 

[cestusdei]

Mormons have told me that people are born black because in the spirit world they were cowardly in the fight against Lucifer. White people were born “white and delightsome” because they fought bravely. Also that the Mormon church discourages interracial marriage strongly. This is what they told me.