Smoking & Drinking

[stringbeanduck]

it’s not mortally sinful, obviously, otherwise the church would have made that clear by now, but at the least it may be venial, because it certainly is not good for you, and in no way works to serve God or love Him in any way, and if anything it works against Him, because instead of seeking your comfort from Him, you’re seeking in from a stick of pure poison.

Here’s the break down:
• Smoking in it’s self: No sin.
• Smoking to receive some positive benefit(e.g. social fun at the bar football game with the guys and a few cigars) : No sin.
• Smoking to the point in which some noticeable harm is done and continuing to do so despite being informed of the knowledge. : Sinful, but venial.
• Smoking to the point in which a chronic disease/condition might or has develop(ed)and continuing to smoke despite being informed of the knowledge: Mortal Sin.

 

[PrayHarder]

Here’s the break down:
• Smoking in it’s self: No sin.
• Smoking to receive some positive benefit(e.g. social fun at the bar football game with the guys and a few cigars) : No sin.
• Smoking to the point in which some noticeable harm is done and continuing to do so despite being informed of the knowledge. : Sinful, but venial.
• Smoking to the point in which a chronic disease/condition might or has develop(ed)and continuing to smoke despite being informed of the knowledge: Mortal Sin.

Very good breakdown. However, I sort of disagree with the last one being a mortal sin. For something to be a mortal sin you need to give full consent. One can make the argument that an addiction removes full consent. Does that mean that if you are an addict you’re sin free? No, of course not. But the sin might be mitigated.

Here is what I know. Smoking does long-term damage to your body. That is pretty much scientific fact. We are called by God to take care of His great gift – the gift of life. Therefore, by engaging in an action that does damage your body and reduces your lifespan, you are abusing/neglecting God’s gift. Sin or not, I think all smokers owe it to God and themselves to quit.

 

[stringbeanduck]

Very good breakdown. However, I sort of disagree with the last one being a mortal sin. For something to be a mortal sin you need to give full consent. One can make the argument that an addiction removes full consent. Does that mean that if you are an addict you’re sin free? No, of course not. But the sin might be mitigated.

Here is what I know. Smoking does long-term damage to your body. That is pretty much scientific fact. We are called by God to take care of His great gift – the gift of life. Therefore, by engaging in an action that does damage your body and reduces your lifespan, you are abusing/neglecting God’s gift. Sin or not, I think all smokers owe it to God and themselves to quit.

I agree. Maybe I should have put some disclaimer *'s there to clearify. Or just labeled it grave matter instead.

At any rate, once informed that he or she might develop or has developed a chronic disease they should start the process of trying to quit. Our merciful Lord understands that addictions are tough to beat. However, if they don’t despite, knowing full well that the church teaches it is grave matter and consent to it anyway; mortal sin is probably present in that case.

As for the bottom portion of your post, I think the problem is, is that many smokers and even non smokers don’t understand the what exactly the virtue of temperance is. It is not a: “it’s okay to have fun and hurt your body, but only just a little” excuse. Instead it allows us to use things that can normally hurt us when taken unconditionally, to help us when used in smaller amounts.

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

…

I think the fact that the Church hasn’t declared smoking to be a mortal sin reflects a hypocritical, political calculation.
…
But the difference is that masturbation always takes place in private, so the Church can prohibit it and claim that people are obeying. No one can prove otherwise because there’s no visible evidence. But smoking often takes place in public, or at least with the knowledge of other people, so the inevitable widespread defiance of Church ban on smoking would be obvious, and would undermine the Church’s perceived power.

The obvious flaw in the above is that the truth is the truth whether or not anyone declares it or acknowledges it. Whether or not her children follow the truth she proclaims, our Holy Mother simply does her duty in proclaiming it, and proclaims it not for power, but because it is truth, and she has a duty to it. The claim that power is involved is just risible, especially today, when the temporal exercise of it by the Church is virtually non-existent.

Truth has nothing to do with majority votes, or with majority “acceptance.”

And as is noted, the Church indeed calls her children to temperance.

 

[John21652]

Well, if smoking is a sin, either mortal or venial, what is growing tobacco?
Cause for excommunication?

 

[stringbeanduck]

Well, if smoking is a sin, either mortal or venial, what is growing tobacco?
Cause for excommunication?

Smoking in it’s self is not a sin. I thought we established that.

Growing tobacco is not like cooking meth or something like that. Tobacco is a plant created by God and deemed good by God. There is nothing morally wrong with growing it just like growing corn. It’s a farm commodity. Once it leaves farmer, it’s the company’s responsibility. It’s actually a nice big beautiful leafy plant with pretty pink/white flowers on top. I know that as a Catholic tobacco grower.

If you want to know where the sin is. I would say it lies with the commercial tobacco product industries that mix a lot of the poisons and chemicals in with it. That is if there is a sin in putting poison into a consumers product.

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

Smoking in it’s self is not a sin. I thought we established that.

Growing tobacco is not like cooking meth or something like that. Tobacco is a plant created by God and deemed good by God. There is nothing morally wrong with growing it just like growing corn. It’s a farm commodity. Once it leaves farmer, it’s the company’s responsibility. It’s actually a nice big beautiful leafy plant with pretty pink/white flowers on top. I know that as a Catholic tobacco grower.

If you want to know where the sin is. I would say it lies with the commercial tobacco product industries that mix a lot of the poisons and chemicals in with it. That is if there is a sin in putting poison into a consumers product.

So then, is growing opium poppies in the same category as growing tobacco since is also a plant created by God?

And the science involved makes it very clear that tobacco is dangerous and gamey even if nothing is added to it. Nicotine is nasty stuff.

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[TedDC]

So then, is growing opium poppies in the same category as growing tobacco since is also a plant created by God?

And the science involved makes it very clear that tobacco is dangerous and gamey even if nothing is added to it. Nicotine is nasty stuff.

Blessings,

Gerry

Careful - you’re coming dangerously close to revealing the hypocrisy in the Church’s teaching (or lack of teaching) on this topic. It’s absolutely incredible that intentionally inhaling toxic smoke for pleasure - an act well-proven to damage the body - isn’t considered a grave matter, while the faithful quake in fear of hell over a single lustful glance at an attractive woman.

 

[stringbeanduck]

So then, is growing opium poppies in the same category as growing tobacco since is also a plant created by God?

And the science involved makes it very clear that tobacco is dangerous and gamey even if nothing is added to it. Nicotine is nasty stuff.

Blessings,

Gerry

Yes it would be on a moral level. However, some governments consider it illegal to grow Opium. Others consider it legal for only ornamental purposes like as you would roses. If one is growing it to use purely as a recreational drug, then that would be considered a sin.

There really hasn’t been much study done on pure homegrown tobacco. Not that it yeild homegrown tobacco as healthy, since the proper term would be less dangerous.

 

[stringbeanduck]

Careful - you’re coming dangerously close to revealing the hypocrisy in the Church’s teaching (or lack of teaching) on this topic. It’s absolutely incredible that intentionally inhaling toxic smoke for pleasure - an act well-proven to damage the body - isn’t considered a grave matter, while the faithful quake in fear of hell over a single lustful glance at an attractive woman.

Read post 21.

 

[lizaanne]

…
I think the fact that the Church hasn’t declared smoking to be a mortal sin reflects a hypocritical, political calculation.

In a thread about masturbation, several posters stated that one reason it’s a mortal sin is because it disrespects the body that God gave us and uses it for a selfish purpose that He didn’t intend. If that’s a criterion for mortal sin, then smoking surely is one…

Catechism of the catholic church says:

2290 the virtue of temprence disposes us to avoid every kind of : the abuse of food, alcohol, tobacco, or medicine. Those incur grave guilt who, by drunkeness or a love of speed, endanger their own and othersk safety on the road, at sea, or in the air.

Here, it appears that a distinction is being made between behaviors which primarily affect the individual, and those which affect other people. That seems like a reasonable approach, but I’m wondering why the former aren’t condemned more strongly, as masturbation is.

So, you’re unable or unwilling to address the points I raised?

Happy to.

You will find anything possible to make an excuse for not being Catholic so that you can live life according to your own will. I’m not going to be baited into your bantering, and I don’t think anyone else should either. Because anything that anyone could possibly say to you will never satisfy your need to bash the Church to find a way out.

I address your points by saying that the Church is right. She always has been and always will be. And until you realize that and fix your life to accept that Truth, you will be miserable and will continue to look for nooks and crannies to hide in. But on your last day you will not be able to hide from the Truth - you will be asked why you turned your back on it willingly.

~Liza

 

[TedDC]

Read post 21.

That’s nothing more than a convenient set of justifications to let you do something you know is harmful. It makes no sense - even one cigarette is poisoning yourself and, like masturbation (which is considered a grave mattter) it’s using part of your body - your lungs - for a purpose clearly contrary to the purpose God intended.

 

[TedDC]

Happy to.

You will find anything possible to make an excuse for not being Catholic so that you can live life according to your own will. I’m not going to be baited into your bantering, and I don’t think anyone else should either. Because anything that anyone could possibly say to you will never satisfy your need to bash the Church to find a way out.

I address your points by saying that the Church is right. She always has been and always will be. And until you realize that and fix your life to accept that Truth, you will be miserable and will continue to look for nooks and crannies to hide in. But on your last day you will not be able to hide from the Truth - you will be asked why you turned your back on it willingly.

~Liza

Wow, that’s a really convincing reply: “…the Church is right”.

I humbly apologize for daring to think. I should have realized it’s against Church teaching, and a grave misuse of my brain

 

[stringbeanduck]

Happy to.

You will find anything possible to make an excuse for not being Catholic so that you can live life according to your own will. I’m not going to be baited into your bantering, and I don’t think anyone else should either. Because anything that anyone could possibly say to you will never satisfy your need to bash the Church to find a way out.

I address your points by saying that the Church is right. She always has been and always will be. And until you realize that and fix your life to accept that Truth, you will be miserable and will continue to look for nooks and crannies to hide in. But on your last day you will not be able to hide from the Truth - you will be asked why you turned your back on it willingly.

~Liza

My goodness. These are my thoughts exactly.

Ted. There is nothing wrong with questioning church teaching, but refusing to obey is another matter. I suggest you spend sometime with a wise Priest. Talk to him about things like this and that you can’t seem understand why the church condemns and/or doesn’t condemn certain things.

 

[Heavens_Flowers]

Happy to.

You will find anything possible to make an excuse for not being Catholic so that you can live life according to your own will. I’m not going to be baited into your bantering, and I don’t think anyone else should either. Because anything that anyone could possibly say to you will never satisfy your need to bash the Church to find a way out.

I address your points by saying that the Church is right. She always has been and always will be. And until you realize that and fix your life to accept that Truth, you will be miserable and will continue to look for nooks and crannies to hide in. But on your last day you will not be able to hide from the Truth - you will be asked why you turned your back on it willingly.

~Liza

I was curious why my post was lumped into this, I was merely saying what the catechism said with smoking and drinking. That was a direct quote from the catechism. And I agree with the churrch on teachings.

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

Careful - you’re coming dangerously close to revealing the hypocrisy in the Church’s teaching (or lack of teaching) on this topic. It’s absolutely incredible that intentionally inhaling toxic smoke for pleasure - an act well-proven to damage the body - isn’t considered a grave matter, while the faithful quake in fear of hell over a single lustful glance at an attractive woman.

The devil I am - and the metaphor is deliberately chosen.

To the simple minded, it may appear that unless the Church has explicitly declared something to be morally wrong, it considers it to be morally right. Of course, people who think (as it were) that way need more help than that which can be given in a forum posting. But it’s not just the simple minded who exhibit this trait. The malicious do so as well.

We also see the same type of twisted logic displayed in gay pride parades when activists who claim to be Christians hold up signs that say, “What Jesus said against homosexuality” with a blank space following.

The Church has enunciated all of the principles her children need to make moral decisions on specific issues, and post 21 has given a very good outline of their application to this one.

The implication that the Church is hypocritical or uncaring on a given issue simply does not hold up when she has set out the principles needed to make a moral determination on it. It does, however, alert people to beware of the possibility of malevolent viciousness on the part of those who so imply.

Gerry

 

[Thecapz]

No matter what you believe…weather it is a sin or not.

Smoking will give you emphysema and possibly cancer. Drinking in excess of moderation will give you a hell of a handover and some embarrassing moments.

Don’t smoke and drink responsibly. Weather it is a sin or not.

 

[stringbeanduck]

I was curious why my post was lumped into this, I was merely saying what the catechism said with smoking and drinking. That was a direct quote from the catechism. And I agree with the churrch on teachings.

I think she included your post to explain that is the official church teaching to Ted since it quotes the CCC. Or possibly she did it by accident. Either way I find it serves good purpose.

 

[rwillenborg]

OP -
I recently attended a friend’s wedding.
Her father was to walk her down the aisle.
He died of lung cancer exactly one month before her wedding, having lived a perfectly healthy life, aside from his two pack a day habit.
He was a good man, he loved his family.
If he had thought FOR A MOMENT that this demon of smoking would have prevented him from giving away his youngest daughter, his baby, on her wedding day, I think he would have done anything to try to quit.
But, like SO many of us, he thought he was invincible. He thought he could just smoke and smoke and smoke, and it wouldn’t get him.
If your relative is a Catholic, then he or she should know that something doesn’t STRICTLY have to be stated as a sin for it to be sinful.
Your body is a gift from God. To treat it with disrespect, though not TECHNICALLY sinful, is nonetheless squandering a gift God gave you. That is something a Catholic should strive not to do.
Furthermore, the smoke could be harmful to the people around this relative. Again, a Catholic should strive to treat the lives of others with love and respect.
And finally, the cost could be better spent elsewhere. If this person has children, I am sure there is a pang of guilt at every cha-ching when the register takes another $5 that could have otherwise been spent on their children. (I know I get those pangs, even on stuff I need!)
My point is, something doesn’t have to be specifically spelled out as a sin for it to be a bad idea.
Hope this helps and I hope your relative comes around.

 

[lizaanne]

I think she included your post to explain that is the official church teaching to Ted since it quotes the CCC. Or possibly she did it by accident. Either way I find it serves good purpose.

Yes - it was included for continuity of the discussion.

~Liza