"Smoking Gun" Found: Catholic Church False

[runandsew]

A “Bible Only” Baptist friend of mine has told me of two “Smoking Guns”. The first and most important is changing the 10 Commandments. If the Church is willing to change the word of God,teach error and lie about it they can’t be trusted in it’s other teaching. Second, if the Apocrypha books are the word of God how come the two stories of “Daniel in the lions den” are not the same? We can call into question all the Apocrypha if the Church allows error even in passages of the Bible and not trust it’s teaching in other areas.

The Apocrypha is a Greek translation of the Hebrew, and as a translation, it is not inspired, just like his King James Bible is an English translation, and it also is not inspired.

I am not saying that the Bible is not inspired, because it is, but what I am saying is that the translations are not inspired, God did not give the Old Testament in Greek, and he did not give the Bible in English.

And as for the 10 Commandments, they are just combined differently. There were more than 10 commandments listed in the Old Testament, but they are combined they make the 10 commandments.

Catholics combine carving graven images with having no other Gods before me because they both are speaking about idolatry, while the Protestants combine coveting a mans wife with coveting a mans house and property.

And I would charge that it is the Protestants who are the ones who changed the commandments, since the Catholics had the commandments written that way long before the Protestants broke away and changed the order of the commandments.

 

[Greg27]

I think your friend’s arguments are pretty flimsy. The Church hasn’t refuted or changed the Ten Commandments, in fact the Church always has (and still is) very conservative in its doctrine and teaching, as can be seen in the strong resistance of Popes, even after Vatican II, to change teachings on abortion, divorce, ordination, homosexuality, contraception, or scripture, even in the face of great pressure from the outside world. In terms of the Canon of scripture, you could ask your friend why the Reformers threw out parts of the Bible which before had been accepted in the Church since about the 2nd century A.D. If we are looking at change, it has been far more rapid in Protestantism than in Catholicism.

 

[vern_humphrey]

moving on the the term "juice"Grape juice has existed at least a tad longer than Grape wine, why is this simple they smashed grapes to do what? get the juice out, when does that juice become wine and have an alcohol content? after fermentation, how long the process takes varies But its still starts out as juice
refridgeration helped slow down and delat fermentation and now we have chemicals to do that as well…so in theory its possible they could have easily been drinking “juice” at the last supper if the grapes had been smashed that day…But many would still refer to it as wine,

Buy some grapes at your local Wal-Mart and make grape juice. Let it sit out, unrefridgerated and tell us what happens to it.

Grapes and grape juice won’t keep – but wine will. It wouldn’t make sense to grow more grapes than you could consume before fermentation started if you didn’t make wine out of it.

And finally, read the account of the marriage at Cana – notice how the steward was impressed that the host saved the best wine for last – everyone else got the guests tipsy on good wine, then served the poor wine. Which indicates it was wine, not “grape juice” the guests were drinking.

 

[Tom]

The Apocrypha is a Greek translation of the Hebrew, and as a translation, it is not inspired, just like his King James Bible is an English translation, and it also is not inspired.

Just a friendly suggestion. By the “Apocrypha”, are you referring to the books of the Septuagint? Those seven books which are in the real Bible, but were removed by the protestants in the 16/17th century? I know a lot of people call them the Apocrypha, but their actual title is the deuterocanon, not the Apocrypha. Protestants call them Apocrypha to discredit them. Unfortunately many Catholics, even high ranking ones, call them Apocrypha. The Apocrypha, by Church teaching, are writings which are not inspired. The deuterocanon is inspired. Apocryphal writings are dangerous in that they can mislead, the deuterocanon however, is the Word of God. It may sound silly until a protestant points out that popes in the past have decried Apocrypha as dangerous. Scripture obviously isn’t dangerous.
For further reading:
cuf.org/Faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=52
st-takla.org/pub_Deuterocanon/Deuterocanon-Apocrypha_El-Asfar_El-Kanoneya_El-Tanya__0-index.html

 

[runandsew]

Just a friendly suggestion. By the “Apocrypha”, are you referring to the books of the Septuagint? Those seven books which are in the real Bible, but were removed by the protestants in the 16/17th century? I know a lot of people call them the Apocrypha, but their actual title is the deuterocanon, not the Apocrypha. Protestants call them Apocrypha to discredit them. Unfortunately many Catholics, even high ranking ones, call them Apocrypha. The Apocrypha, by Church teaching, are writings which are not inspired. The deuterocanon is inspired. Apocryphal writings are dangerous in that they can mislead, the deuterocanon however, is the Word of God. It may sound silly until a protestant points out that popes in the past have decried Apocrypha as dangerous. Scripture obviously isn’t dangerous.
For further reading:
cuf.org/Faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=52
st-takla.org/pub_Deuterocanon/Deuterocanon-Apocrypha_El-Asfar_El-Kanoneya_El-Tanya__0-index.html

Whoops, I typed faster than I thought.
You are correct, I should have written the Deuterocanical books.
sorry.
My copy editor must have been asleep.

 

[David_Zampino]

A “Bible Only” Baptist friend of mine has told me of two “Smoking Guns”. The first and most important is changing the 10 Commandments. If the Church is willing to change the word of God,teach error and lie about it they can’t be trusted in it’s other teaching. Second, if the Apocrypha books are the word of God how come the two stories of “Daniel in the lions den” are not the same? We can call into question all the Apocrypha if the Church allows error even in passages of the Bible and not trust it’s teaching in other areas.

The 10 Commandments issue is a “red herring” – especially when one considers that most Lutherans numerate the Commandments in the same manner as the Catholics do. And last I checked, Lutherans were Protestants!

 

[1962Missal]

in theory its possible they could have easily been drinking “juice” at the last supper if the grapes had been smashed that day…

Except for the fact that the grape harvest in Palestine is (and always has been) in August and September. There would be no ripe grapes in April for Passover.

Justin

 

[Tom]

Concerning the juice vs. wine controversy, exactly why would drinking grape juice have been scandalous in Mt 11?
“Matthew 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking; and they say: He hath a devil. 19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say: Behold a man that is a glutton and a grape juice (wine) drinker, a friend of publicans and sinners. And wisdom is justified by her children.”
Replacing “grape juice” for wine certainly points out the problem. Just what would have been scandalous about drinking grape juice?

 

[Randy_Carson]

A “Bible Only” Baptist friend of mine has told me of two “Smoking Guns”. The first and most important is changing the 10 Commandments. If the Church is willing to change the word of God,teach error and lie about it they can’t be trusted in it’s other teaching. Second, if the Apocrypha books are the word of God how come the two stories of “Daniel in the lions den” are not the same? We can call into question all the Apocrypha if the Church allows error even in passages of the Bible and not trust it’s teaching in other areas.

Gee, how come there are two different accounts of creation in Genesis?

How come there are different accounts of parables and events in the life of Jesus in the four gospels?

C’mon…tell him to get serious.

 

[johntkd]

Except for the fact that the grape harvest in Palestine is (and always has been) in August and September. There would be no ripe grapes in April for Passover.

Justin

dont misunderstand what I wrote all I was trying to point out is that in order to make wine you have to get the juice from the grapes first, I have made wine and no not from store bought Grapes, also they did Know and understand even back then how to keep harvests for a later day, I am not saying they had grape juice I was merely pointing out how some things can easily be second nature when it comes to wordings and expressions, the PWC example was One I see every single day In my line of work.
some call them wave runners some jet skis and we only work on polaris and sea doo lol and thats usually what they have.
not a kawasaki jet ski or a yamaha waverunner.

its really all irrelavant anyways, I do not believe you have to have alcohol content to consecrate. I do not believe that any one commandment is lesser than the other,
a lie is a lie, a cheat is a cheat, a murder is a murder.and stealing is stealing be it a penny or a million dollars the intent and sneakiness is the same.

A good deed is a good deed be it helping someone get up after falling or saving someones life, or do you think heaven and hell are segregated into areas this area for rich good people this one for poor good people this room for the ones whom never stole and this room for those that only took pencils and that dirty room over there for the ones that stole often then repented,

sin is sin when we sin we become filthy to our Lord,a tiny sin or a big we still bath in the same filth, make sense?
we may look at things differently we are not Holy and all forgiving,
we are very judgemental in nature we can see this all the time on this forum, people judging others,trying to set rules for others to follow because of thier own belief, we cannot even begin to understand How the creator thinks.
He gave moses 10 laws to live by.he took the time to write them to me that makes them Important enough, if we are gonna sit and say one is less than the other then we are doing exactly what the protestant religions were founded on assumption and interpretation.
as far as so called changes to words well gee I am very sure they were not written in english, French, spanish etc so yes there will be wording differences, which will also change with the times,
not everything has an english translation so they have to come up with whats close, well whats close a hundred years ago may have changed now that they understand more about something.
we can add anything we want to after it but the general rule is the same.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Right now on one of the Protestant forums that I visit, there is a thread on “Can you lose your salvation?” A few brave souls (and one Catholic gentleman) are arguing that yes, you can, but most of the Protestants, even the scholarly ones, are saying, “No, Christ’s blood is sufficient to forgive all our sins, past, present and future. No one can snatch us away from God, not even ourself.” I would link you to the thread, but I think that’s against the CAF rules.

Ask them to explain Heb 10:26-27 …***

***For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries.

 

[vern_humphrey]

dont misunderstand what I wrote all I was trying to point out is that in order to make wine you have to get the juice from the grapes first, I have made wine and no not from store bought Grapes, also they did Know and understand even back then how to keep harvests for a later day.

Yes, they did know how to keep harvests for a later day. The way you keep grapes for a later day is to dry them and make raisins out of them. The way you keep grape juice for a later day is to make wine out of it.

 

[MrS]

I’d say the smoking gun that the Catholic Church is the true Church is the Eucharist. The Bible clearly states what the Eucharist is but I know of no Protestant denomination that recognizes the true presance of Christ in the Host.

I thought the smoking gun wassmileys.smileycentral.com/cat/14/14_6_1.gif…

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…

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smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/1035.gif the c a n o n

 

[johntkd]

Yes, they did know how to keep harvests for a later day. The way you keep grapes for a later day is to dry them and make raisins out of them. The way you keep grape juice for a later day is to make wine out of it.

ahhh but see how little we know, I can keep any fresh fruit grapes included for months, without a refridgerator and have done so many times the trick is to keep it underground and in a dry area
have any more lil downers to try cause you downing the wrong person spent several years learning survival skills and main survival skill is how to keep things from rotting or perishing
and fruits and berries are extremely important in learning how to keep because of short harvest season, also Grapes are one of the easiest fruits/berries to keep apples are next

I will admit it was far more practical to dry them either into raisns or a type of sun dehydration than to keep as a viable fruit but it was entirely possible even in that day and age

 

[vern_humphrey]

ahhh but see how little we know, I can keep any fresh fruit grapes included for months, without a refridgerator and have done so many times the trick is to keep it underground and in a dry area
have any more lil downers to try cause you downing the wrong person spent several years learning survival skills and main survival skill is how to keep things from rotting or perishing
and fruits and berries are extremely important in learning how to keep because of short harvest season, also Grapes are one of the easiest fruits/berries to keep apples are next

I will admit it was far more practical to dry them either into raisns or a type of sun dehydration than to keep as a viable fruit but it was entirely possible even in that day and age

And you did all this in Israel?

 

[johntkd]

And you did all this in Israel?

lol only in my dreams, actually it would be easier to keep fruits dry underground in a desert climate, now bugs etc that a whole other issue…But we do know from scriptire they had mastered storing grains. why not assume they mastered other things as well… Just because we have modern things dont mean we are super thinkers and better than those before us, matter of fact I think people back then had to be Intelligent to be able to do what they did without all the machines and electricity etc

 

[vern_humphrey]

lol only in my dreams, actually it would be easier to keep fruits dry underground in a desert climate, now bugs etc that a whole other issue…But we do know from scriptire they had mastered storing grains. why not assume they mastered other things as well…

Because as we say in the Infantry, “assume” is spelled “*** U ME.”

Just because we have modern things dont mean we are super thinkers and better than those before us, matter of fact I think people back then had to be Intelligent to be able to do what they did without all the machines and electricity etc

Be that as it may, they saved grapes by making raisens, and grape juice by making wine.

 

[johntkd]

Because as we say in the Infantry, “assume” is spelled “*** U ME.”

Be that as it may, they saved grapes by making raisens, and grape juice by making wine.

LOL I give up until i can get a time machine and take you back and prove otherwise lol

 

[EHRAM]

They (Anglicans and Lutherans) really do not (believe in the real presence) as they do not treat it as Christ is present.
Scylla

I was Episcopalian for about 10 years before I “crossed the Tiber.” Episcopalians DO believe that Christ is really present in the Eucharist; but they don’t quibble about how He is present, they just consider it a mystery. Episcopalians genuflect to the Blessed Sacrament, they genuflect before going forward to receive Holy Communion, they usually receive Holy Communion while kneeling, they use a corporal under the chalice and paten, they have rules for ablutions, including that the chalice must be washed so that any remaining Precious Blood goes into a drain that goes directly to the earth rather than into a sewer, etc.

Lutherans believe in consubstantiation; i.e. that the bread is both bread and the Body of Christ, the wine is both wine and the Blood of Christ.

 

[Turtullian]

The Story of Bel and the Dragon is different for a reason. It is Daniel’s second trip to the Lion’s Den.