J
- Status
J
JustaServant
Guest
Re-read what you wrote and muse on it for a while.
J
Jim_Dandy
Guest
Perhaps one reason Mr. Finley refuses to state his denomination is that he realizes that once we know that, we will know the human founder, the date of its founding, and its major beliefs, which – except for the doctrines “borrowed” from the Catholic Church – are based on private interpretation of Scripture. It’s merely one of thousands of man-made institutions with conflicting and competing doctrines. It’s definitely not the Church founded by Christ that’s written about in the New Testament. Perhaps he’s ashamed of it? 
H
Hesychios
Guest
Good post.
J
JustaServant
Guest
Oh, I see. Oh well.
What was the big deal about revealing his religion handle?
Chuck Finley
Join Date: April 21, 2012
Posts: 90
Religion: Christian (Snake Handler)
What was the big deal about revealing his religion handle?
Chuck Finley
Join Date: April 21, 2012
Posts: 90
Religion: Christian (Snake Handler)
O
Oldtimer_7
Guest
It has been a very busy week at church, so it was only today that I was able to talk to Pastor about Mack Wolford and snake handling. She said that his church has about 20-25 members, typical for snake-handling churches. It was started by his father, and both were ordained by the congregation. Neither had the sort of formal education that we mainstream Christians associate with the clergy. As with many small Christian sects, their view of Scripture is focussed on just a small passage of Scripture to the exclusion of the rest of it.
As to the practices of these churches, the services may go on a couple of hours. I have already mentioned milking and keeping the snakes in a cool place. In addition, these churches pay a premium if someone finds a nest of snakes that contain young. They like to train the snakes to be handled. This makes them less likely to bite.
The theology of these churches and the mountain culture is much shaped by the environment of these people. The areas are very rural and life is not long or comfortable. Men who work in the mines know that by age 50 they will no longer be able to work, due to the likelihood of black lung. The timber industry and farming are both quite dangerous also. There are often no medical services or they are difficult to reach. Many of the homes are located in areas where the only access is with four-wheel ATV’s. As an aside, a friend trained as a nurse-practitioner in eastern Kentucky, a similar environment, and part of her curriculum was horse riding and care, since many of her patients were only reachable on horseback. This lack of medical access leads to a high postnatal maternal and infant mortality.
Drugs have also taken a tremendous toll in the mountains of West Virginia. Meth is particularly rampant. The ones not hooked on it tend to move away. The others do things like cut down power poles to steal the copper wire. This leaves families with such uncertain power that many have generators to power their homes. The mountains also block television and radio signals, so that communication with the outside world is a chancey thing. Even many of the small towns do not have services such as public sewage and water. Many of the miners have tanks on the back of their trucks and carry water from the mines to use for drinking, cooking and bathing. They joke that they have the biggest carbon filter in the world.
In such an uncertain environment, the people seek assurance from religion that God will protect them, It is this desire that leads to such practices as snake handling and even an extreme stance of Biblical literalism. In lives already full of doubt, uncertainty has little value. This literalism is comforting to them and they do not wish to explore any other explanations or views. It is easy to claim that it is the fault of Sola Scriptura, but the issue goes further than that. As I have pointed out in earlier posts, Catholics and others (I am not exempting Lutherans, either) have done similar things and also held rigid positions.
As for the claim that Catholicism does not allow for personal interpretation, I would say that the existence of the practice of lectio divina does indeed incorporate personal interpretation. Michael Casey, in Sacred Reading states," We cannot affirm that every private ‘inspiration’ is a direct message from God. We simply affirm that for one who is seeking God in a spirit of openness to the future, and with an ample supply of both common sense and intergrity, occasions of going badly astray are relatively few." This is because such an inspiration is done within a context of guidance, by the other three aspects of lectio divina, by the Ministerium, and by Sacred Tradition. These are things that all are lacking in a congregation of 20-25 people.
Our atheistic brother points out that the manipulations of snake-handling are a rejection of the values that are otherwise espoused by their Christian heritage. This is certainly true and is something that has always gone on. The Israelites escaping from Egypt were complaining about not being able to sit by the fleshpots and eating their fill of bread. Jesus spoke of those who traded their eternal salvation for the approval of others. Yes, this is one of our failings, because we are all sinners and sin is at base a loss of relationship with God.
As to the practices of these churches, the services may go on a couple of hours. I have already mentioned milking and keeping the snakes in a cool place. In addition, these churches pay a premium if someone finds a nest of snakes that contain young. They like to train the snakes to be handled. This makes them less likely to bite.
The theology of these churches and the mountain culture is much shaped by the environment of these people. The areas are very rural and life is not long or comfortable. Men who work in the mines know that by age 50 they will no longer be able to work, due to the likelihood of black lung. The timber industry and farming are both quite dangerous also. There are often no medical services or they are difficult to reach. Many of the homes are located in areas where the only access is with four-wheel ATV’s. As an aside, a friend trained as a nurse-practitioner in eastern Kentucky, a similar environment, and part of her curriculum was horse riding and care, since many of her patients were only reachable on horseback. This lack of medical access leads to a high postnatal maternal and infant mortality.
Drugs have also taken a tremendous toll in the mountains of West Virginia. Meth is particularly rampant. The ones not hooked on it tend to move away. The others do things like cut down power poles to steal the copper wire. This leaves families with such uncertain power that many have generators to power their homes. The mountains also block television and radio signals, so that communication with the outside world is a chancey thing. Even many of the small towns do not have services such as public sewage and water. Many of the miners have tanks on the back of their trucks and carry water from the mines to use for drinking, cooking and bathing. They joke that they have the biggest carbon filter in the world.
In such an uncertain environment, the people seek assurance from religion that God will protect them, It is this desire that leads to such practices as snake handling and even an extreme stance of Biblical literalism. In lives already full of doubt, uncertainty has little value. This literalism is comforting to them and they do not wish to explore any other explanations or views. It is easy to claim that it is the fault of Sola Scriptura, but the issue goes further than that. As I have pointed out in earlier posts, Catholics and others (I am not exempting Lutherans, either) have done similar things and also held rigid positions.
As for the claim that Catholicism does not allow for personal interpretation, I would say that the existence of the practice of lectio divina does indeed incorporate personal interpretation. Michael Casey, in Sacred Reading states," We cannot affirm that every private ‘inspiration’ is a direct message from God. We simply affirm that for one who is seeking God in a spirit of openness to the future, and with an ample supply of both common sense and intergrity, occasions of going badly astray are relatively few." This is because such an inspiration is done within a context of guidance, by the other three aspects of lectio divina, by the Ministerium, and by Sacred Tradition. These are things that all are lacking in a congregation of 20-25 people.
Our atheistic brother points out that the manipulations of snake-handling are a rejection of the values that are otherwise espoused by their Christian heritage. This is certainly true and is something that has always gone on. The Israelites escaping from Egypt were complaining about not being able to sit by the fleshpots and eating their fill of bread. Jesus spoke of those who traded their eternal salvation for the approval of others. Yes, this is one of our failings, because we are all sinners and sin is at base a loss of relationship with God.
J
Jim_Dandy
Guest
I am grateful for these insights into the snake-handling congregations. It’s a description of an America I have never experienced and didn’t know existed, living in the West. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to your pastor – who has has personally known these folks – and for sharing the information. It increases our sympathy and concern for these brothers and sisters.
As to your other comments, Catholics – myself included – have apparently not made it clear that, we don’t read the Scriptures to make or to attempt to “prove” doctrines or to “interpret” them doctrinally in any way. Catholic doctrine came from Christ through the Apostles to His Church. Members of the living, believing, teaching Church wrote over a period of about 50 years or so what we now know as the New Testament (NT). The NT is based on the teaching and practices of the Church, not the other way around. We read Scripture to apply it to our own lives. And we indeed do discern what it means to us personally – to that extent, it can be called “personal interpretation.” Lectio divina was developed for just that purpose. Have you ever studied the Scriptures using the lectio divina method? It’s really quite wonderful. As Michael Casey wrote, it is done within the framework of Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium (the teaching authority of the Church). IOW, there is a template, so to speak, over the Scriptures – i.e., the teaching of the Church – that provides the framework for our reading that “keeps us within the lines.”
Thanks again.
A
AbideWithMe
Guest
Interesting information, Old timer…thanks.
O
Oldtimer_7
Guest
Jim, I certainly have used lectio divina and continue to use it. The guidance of the Magisterium and Sacred Tradition is something that I admire in Catholicism. As I mentioned, personal interpretation then occurs within a context. For non-Catholics it is a necessity to find some way to supplement their beliefs and practices with a means that affords similar context.
The Epistles are not about personal salvation, though it is in there, they are about living in community. Any Christian community that becomes exclusivist then is at odds with the clear message of the Epistles. This applies very obviously in the case of snake-handling. One can say that it is the outcome of Sola Scriptura, but I would argue that this is a case of Sola Scriptura being misapplied, just as the passage of Mark has been to justify the practice of snake-handling. Homo sapiens may be a user of tools, but we are also a MIS-user of tools. We cannot blame the tools for that.
The Epistles are not about personal salvation, though it is in there, they are about living in community. Any Christian community that becomes exclusivist then is at odds with the clear message of the Epistles. This applies very obviously in the case of snake-handling. One can say that it is the outcome of Sola Scriptura, but I would argue that this is a case of Sola Scriptura being misapplied, just as the passage of Mark has been to justify the practice of snake-handling. Homo sapiens may be a user of tools, but we are also a MIS-user of tools. We cannot blame the tools for that.
L
ltwin
Guest
I haven’t read all the posts in this thread since my last comments, so forgive me if I repeat any information that has already been given. This thread made me do some research about serpent handling, so I went to the New International Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements to see what its entry contained.
According to that article, handling serpents only takes place within these churches when participants perceive the direct intervention of God. In other words, they wont do it unless “the anointing” is present. Deaths are explained by these people in the following ways: 1) the anointing was not present, 2) such deaths prove to outsiders that the snakes are poisonous and have not been defanged, 3) God wills their death.
According to that article, handling serpents only takes place within these churches when participants perceive the direct intervention of God. In other words, they wont do it unless “the anointing” is present. Deaths are explained by these people in the following ways: 1) the anointing was not present, 2) such deaths prove to outsiders that the snakes are poisonous and have not been defanged, 3) God wills their death.
P
pismopal
Guest
Piggy backing on your excellent post…snakes are also habituated to being handled by the “adherants” and are much less likely to envenomate even when they bite. That being said…they are animals and they are not entirely predictable. I have watched their practise on a documentary and it is like watching a train wreck…hard to take your eyes off it but also about as appealing to participate in.
J
Jim_Dandy
Guest
Glad you find lectio divina beneficial. It’s a wonderful way to study the Bible. It’s practiced in (many) monasteries.
Some of the Epistles were written in response to problems that developed in a few of the local branches of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Jesus said: “Go and teach,” and that’s what the Apostles did. They established branches of the Church, stayed long enough to personally instruct their converts in the Faith, then they moved on to found other Churches, leaving bishops and priests in each community. When the apostles (or their disciples) later learned of problems that had surfaced in some of these Churches, they wrote from wherever they were at the time to correct them. Others were personal letters, written to individuals. How did the Catholic bishops know which of many writings were “inspired” (God-breathed)? The Holy Spirit guided them.
I’ve never known a Catholic who blamed the Bible for the misuse it is subjected to by Protestants who wrongly interpret its meaning. Is that what you were referring to? “Do not be carried away by all kinds of strage teaching,” the Letter to the Hebrews warns us (13:9 NAB). This verse applies to foods, but I should think it applies to snakes as well
. But, because of the insights of your pastor which you have shared,I have a new awareness of the mentality of the snake-handlers who live in isolation in the hills of WVA with their simplistic Fundamentalism, carried to its ultimate conclusion. I just fail to understand why at least some of those who claim to take the Bible literally are not one-eyed, one-handed, and one footed (Mt 18:8-9, Mk 9: 43-47
M
mangy_dog
Guest
This is the extreme of Sola Scriptura.
It’s a good thing that there isn’t a fringe denomination that “plucks their eyes out”.
It’s a good thing that there isn’t a fringe denomination that “plucks their eyes out”.
I wonder how exactly they determine this in the first place.
There has got to be a better way to show a snake to be deadly.
Perhaps milking it??
Funny one.
I used to laugh at the image of someone dying and God, upon seeing the new arrival, says “what are you doing here?” As though God can be caught by surprise.
J
Jim_Dandy
Guest
There was disagreement on this thread about the definition of Sola Scriptura – with some saying (the banned Mr. Finley in particular) that the definition I gave was wrong and “dishonest.” As I wrote at that time, there is more than one definition. Here’s additional evidence:
www.bereanchurchfellowship.org:
“We believe the Bible, consisting of both the Old and New Testament Scriptures in their entirety, is the only divinely inspired, inerrant, objectively true, and authoritative written Word of God, and *the only infallible rule of faith and practice].” (bold added)
This is the most common definition, I believe, and the one I used as the basis for this thread. I just wanted to clarify the definition. Thanks to all who have posted. Please continue.***
www.bereanchurchfellowship.org:
“We believe the Bible, consisting of both the Old and New Testament Scriptures in their entirety, is the only divinely inspired, inerrant, objectively true, and authoritative written Word of God, and *the only infallible rule of faith and practice].” (bold added)
This is the most common definition, I believe, and the one I used as the basis for this thread. I just wanted to clarify the definition. Thanks to all who have posted. Please continue.***
J
Jim_Dandy
Guest
There was disagreement on this thread about the definition of Sola Scriptura – with some saying (the banned Mr. Finley in particular) that the definition I gave was wrong and “dishonest.” As I wrote at that time, there is more than one definition. Here’s additional evidence:
www.bereanchurchfellowship.org:
“We believe the Bible, consisting of both the Old and New Testament Scriptures in their entirety, is the only divinely inspired, inerrant, objectively true, and authoritative written Word of God, and the only infallible rule of faith and practice].” (bold added)
This is the most common definition, I believe, and the one I used as the basis for this thread. I just wanted to clarify the definition. Thanks to all who have posted. Please continue.**
Indeed, Jim, it may even be the one the snake-handlers use. Of course, though, that doesn’t make it the historical one. You know, the one thought up by…what’s his name, its on the tip of my tongue…oh, you know who I mean.
Jon
N
Nicea325
Guest
Or cuts off their hands.
N
Nicea325
Guest
Blessings Jon. Jon would you say Lutherans can claim bragging rights to holding to the true definition and understanding of SS? I do not mean it as an insult to other faiths.Indeed, Jim, it may even be the one the snake-handlers use. Of course, though, that doesn’t make it the historical one. You know, the one thought up by…what’s his name, its on the tip of my tongue…oh, you know who I mean.
Jon
- Status