Snapple Judaism

[deb1]

In 1:27 we are told that the Creater made man in His image. Man is made into two parts:male (referred to as man) and female (referred to as woman). However, both are reffered to as “man” according to what is written. This makes sense when we consider that woman was taken from the rib of man. He gave the Command to the man so that he (and woman as one) may be partners in His continuing work of creation and producing life.
When the Creator gives the command to the man, it is also given to the woman for they are one. He commanded the man to not eat from the tree in the middle of the garden. However, the decieving serpent came to the woman and asked her if she was given the command. He is trying to separate her from the man; what the Creator had joined together.
Also, the curse was for the disobediance and lack of repentance For the woman to have the pains of childbirth increased (and sometimes death). The ground was cursed because of the man and he also must work to survive and struggle among the thorns and thistles of life. These curses are a result of the disobedience to the Command and the lack of repentance. The Torah, as referred to, brings life against the curse. However, it does not eliminate the curse from this life because all things haven’t been renewed and death taken away. That will come at the end of things as Promised.

This is and anything that we may say to you will be just headknowledge. Valke, you must pray and seek clarity. Then decide.

Peace be with you.

Valke is simply describing Jewish beliefs. He/she isn’t really trying to convert us or argue that his point of view is correct. He/she is only explaining what the Jewish point of view is.

 

[YinYangMom]

Valke is simply describing Jewish beliefs. He/she isn’t really trying to convert us or argue that his point of view is correct. He/she is only explaining what the Jewish point of view is.

Well it’s quite interesting, to say the least. Kinda oppressive, too, but people say that about Catholicism too.

I suppose how I’d reconcile the whole matter is this:

In love, through marriage, the man is the priest…he, emulating Jesus as groom to the Church, is responsible for the physical and spiritual well being of all under his care, beginning with the wife.

I suspect, and correct me Valke2 if I’m wrong, that Jewish tradition teaches respect, honor and protection to males of the faith so that if/when a husband would seek to be fruitful, his wife would lovingly respond. If the man is living according to the way of the faith then there’s no reason a woman would ever have to refuse him. If she has health issues, the man would know of this and never presume to put her at risk.

So just because the expounded teaching of the original verse of commanding ‘them’ to be fruitful relegates that command only to men, and makes room for a woman not to be obliged, doesn’t mean the overall plan of God’s is different between the Jews and Christians. Bottom line is respect, honor, trust, and protection **from **them male to the female. I agree the obligation for establishing and maintaining an honorable household rests soley on the man’s shoulders. I wish we women would start demanding and expecting such from men. It would make for a much better world.

 

[Valke2]

Valke is simply describing Jewish beliefs. He/she isn’t really trying to convert us or argue that his point of view is correct. He/she is only explaining what the Jewish point of view is.

Thank you. I thought that was what the “Non-Catholic” Religion forum was for. For the record, I believe that a follower of Christanity or a follower of Islam can pursue just as meaningful relationship with God, as can a follower of Judaism.

They are all structures designed to give a person acess to the Divine. Judaism happens to be the structure for me.

 

[Valke2]

Well it’s quite interesting, to say the least. Kinda oppressive, too, but people say that about Catholicism too.

I suppose how I’d reconcile the whole matter is this:

In love, through marriage, the man is the priest…he, emulating Jesus as groom to the Church, is responsible for the physical and spiritual well being of all under his care, beginning with the wife.

I suspect, and correct me Valke2 if I’m wrong, that Jewish tradition teaches respect, honor and protection to males of the faith so that if/when a husband would seek to be fruitful, his wife would lovingly respond. If the man is living according to the way of the faith then there’s no reason a woman would ever have to refuse him. If she has health issues, the man would know of this and never presume to put her at risk.

So just because the expounded teaching of the original verse of commanding ‘them’ to be fruitful relegates that command only to men, and makes room for a woman not to be obliged, doesn’t mean the overall plan of God’s is different between the Jews and Christians. Bottom line is respect, honor, trust, and protection **from **them male to the female. I agree the obligation for establishing and maintaining an honorable household rests soley on the man’s shoulders. I wish we women would start demanding and expecting such from men. It would make for a much better world.

I don’t see this particular commanmdent as something that could be used to differentiate God’s “overall plan” either. Truthfully, I really didn’t think it was anything that particular goes against christian beliefs. It is not a commandment that has anything to do with the miracle or importance of procreation, beyond the extent of not “requiring” women to have children. Having children is of course a highly cherished ideal in Judaism. Something that Jews generally agree is worth striving for.

 

[Valke2]

Last night we read the last portion of the Torah and first portion of the Torah (Genesis). And so we start again. There’s a midrash that says we read the Torah each year because each year (or each moment) the the Torah changes for us, meaning that since we are not the same person we were when we last read the Torah, different truths are revealed to us with each reading.

 

[Brenda4God]

If Valke is right, it sounds to me like women take a back seat to men in Judaism, then. Is this true?

I have to admit that it looks like what you wrote from the Talmud doesn’t really go with what you wrote from the Bible, too.

I’m not trying to be argumentative, but it just doesn’t look right to me.

 

[Valke2]

If Valke is right, it sounds to me like women take a back seat to men in Judaism, then. Is this true?

I have to admit that it looks like what you wrote from the Talmud doesn’t really go with what you wrote from the Bible, too.

I’m not trying to be argumentative, but it just doesn’t look right to me.

That’s a topic that jews have been arguing about for a long time. The fact is that for almost the entire history of Judaism, the rabbis have been men. ANd it shows in our tradition.

Conservative Judaism takes a different view, and promotes not only women taking part in communal prayer, but also women leading services and becoming rabbis. So now we are starting to see, in certain areas, the feminie perspective on how the Torah commandments are to be followed. Even in the orthodox circles, some changes are being made, albiet it on a much smaller scale.

 

[deb1]

If Valke is right, it sounds to me like women take a back seat to men in Judaism, then. Is this true?

I have to admit that it looks like what you wrote from the Talmud doesn’t really go with what you wrote from the Bible, too.

I’m not trying to be argumentative, but it just doesn’t look right to me.

A very long time ago I read a book, How to Run a Traditional Jewish Home by the wife of an orthodox Rabbi. It was a very fascinating book.

One of the traditions that both fascinated and appealed to me was the fact that some ORthodox men sing the last chapter of Proverbs to their wives during the Sabbath. This is the Chapter that starts who can find a good wife, her price is above rubies. How beautiful and respectful toward women.

After reading the book, I came away with the impression that men and women in Judism had different roles, just as we do in Christianity.

I thought that it was very enpowering toward women that their roles as mothers and wives was considered so important that they were allowed to not attend to the prayers. I don’t see that as sexist at all.

 

[Brenda4God]

I like that explanation. Thank you. But I’m still not sure I see the way the Talmud and the Bible are saying the same thing on having children. That’s okay. I just may be a little slow right now. I really should be in bed!

 

[Valke2]

I like that explanation. Thank you. But I’m still not sure I see the way the Talmud and the Bible are saying the same thing on having children. That’s okay. I just may be a little slow right now. I really should be in bed!

No. I see your point. You have to keep in mind that, according to traditional judaism, the Torah (Bible) cannot be understood without the Talmud. IN effect, that the Torah is almost a type of shorthand code that is only fully revealed with an understanding of the oral Torah/Talmud.

There’s a tension in Judaism between the importance of the original text and the need to interpert the text so that it remains relevant for every generation of jews. We are required to interpert Torah in a meaningful way and at the same time to do so only within the bounds of the tradition.

 

[Valke2]

This is why, I think, we had an oral Torah and that Talmud was never really meant to be written. An oral conversation is more fluid and subject to adaptation than something committed to writing. Putting it in writing was not ideal. And we have tried to compensate for that by continuing to provide commentary upon the commentary upon the commonentary for the last few millenia.

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

deb1:

I came away with the impression that men and women in Judism had different roles, just as we do in Christianity.

Correct.

Brenda4God:

If Valke is right, it sounds to me like women take a back seat to men in Judaism, then. Is this true?

Orthodox Judaism does not, in any way, denigrate or disparage the role of women. A common (and very condescending ) liberal fallacy is that because a traditional faith like orthodox Judaism believes that men & women are different and have different roles, that we necessarily believe that women are inferior; people confuse uniformity with equality & mistake the absence of the former for a lack of the latter. This is nonsense.

jewfaq.org/women.htm is a good, basic, introductory read. The 16 articles (all by the same orthodox Jewish woman) at beingjewish.com/kresel/ go into various women’s issues in more detail.

Be well!

ssv

 

[Brenda4God]

Woops! Didn’t mean to be insulting. Also, so you know, I am definately NOT a liberal.

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Brenda4God:

Woops! Didn’t mean to be insulting.

No prob’! We’re !

Also, so you know, I am definately NOT a liberal.

Whew!

Actually, liberals aren’t *that *bad…they’re kinda quaint…

Be well!

ssv

 

[Brenda4God]

I agree about liberals. I know a few…but I try not to admit it too much!

 

[Valke2]

I agree about liberals. I know a few…but I try not to admit it too much!

God bless liberals.

“God is one means He alone is truly real. One means exclusively, only One, no one else, no one besides, alone, only.”

• A. J. Heschel

 

[Valke2]

Jews do not believe that original sin is the nature of man. The Talmud asks: What is the meaning in the verse of Genesis “And God formed man”, the word “formed” being spelled with two yods, instead of one (which is how it would normally be spelled.)?

Hashem created man with two yetzers == ‘inclinations’. One good and one evil. The word for ‘form’ and the word for ‘yetzer’ are identical in the original Hebrew (because there were no vowels). So the Torah is making a play on words here.

This teaches that we are not condemed at birth because we can choose between the good and evil urge.