snowblanket theology

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I think that many Catholics, wrongly, are under the impression that Lutherans don’t even think of or experience sanctification as they are “once saved, always saved.” I think the reality is that it boils down to ‘order’ IMO. Lutherans think that justification occurs at the moment of an internalized faith in Christ that is mature and sincere. At that point, sanctification should proceed forth as the Christian is grateful and wants to please and know the God who has saved him.

The Catholic sees sanctification as part of justification, not preceeding it, but an essential part to prove the worthiness for final justification of the Christian. Both believe that justification and sanctification takes place, just in different order and that is a sticking point. Otherwise, they have a LOT in common. Lutherans and Catholics have so much in common salvifically-speaking.

But because Lutherans teach that justification comes before sanctification, the unfair assumption is that they don’t undergo sanctification. That’s patently not what Lutherans believe. In theory, both Lutherans and Catholics are transformed.
Is it at odds because there is a perception that we (speaking of Lutherans here), that grace does not transform us?

Jon
 
Chew on this.
There is only 1 King.
ROME
R - Realizing
O - Our
M - Minds
E - Evangelize
 
Luther’s illustration is a good description of justification from a Protestant perspective, but its not the be all end all. Its not an illustration of sanctification. In Luther’s illustration, we remain dung, Christ covers us with snow when we are justified. However, that does not exclude the idea of grace transforming us and we grow in grace. John Wesley, influenced by Catholic and Orthodox thought, believed we could be changed by the power of the Holy Spirit, to no longer be dung underneath.

Too often, Christians use Romans 7 as the norm for Christian life, but if they go one chapter over, they see Paul talking about being transformed by grace in Romans 8.
Luther must not have had access to Clorox. Wesley must have discovered it. :rotfl:
mataphors are an effective teaching tool, but they are only metaphors. I believe most protestants believe that they are ultimately saved by the blood of the lamb that contains cleansing qualities, because the Lamb is Christ who covers ALL sin. Living a repentant life seemed to be the way to live when I was protestant. We believe you cold lose your soul if you didn’t do right or correct mistakes.
 
Luther must not have had access to Clorox. Wesley must have discovered it. :rotfl:
mataphors are an effective teaching tool, but they are only metaphors. I believe most protestants believe that they are ultimately saved by the blood of the lamb that contains cleansing qualities, because the Lamb is Christ who covers ALL sin. Living a repentant life seemed to be the way to live when I was protestant. We believe you cold lose your soul if you didn’t do right or correct mistakes.
No, Wesley just went to his neighbors house who happended to be either Catholic or Orthodox and borrowed some bleach. Luther sat on his rear and continued to watch football all day.

I don’t disagree with you. I would go further and say that is what most Christians, Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox believe, in some form or another. They just discuss it and teaching it differently within the contexts of their own traditional teachings. Only the extreme OSAS crowd would say that we cannot under any circumstance lose our salvation (such as the doctrine taught by Charles Stanley)
 
Our Lord says we shall know a tree by the fruit it bears. Well, I have watched some amazing fruit come from many of the Protestants I know. I know a lot of charitable, caring, giving, honest, loving Protestants who demonstrate an active relationship with Christ, no doubt! I work with a woman who is mennonite and I swear that woman is a saint. She is an angel and one of the kindest, most loving people. When my grandma died, she was the only person on our staff who asked me every day about how I’m doing, how I am, what I need. She asked me to pray with her, took my hands, and prayed this prayer that knocked my socks off. And it was heartfelt. She doesn’t try to convert, has no agenda. Just loves Christ. She is just wonderful. And I’ve known many folks like her of all Christian stripes. Christ is working through many and sanctifying not just Catholics. The proof is in the pudding all over the place.
No, Wesley just went to his neighbors house who happended to be either Catholic or Orthodox and borrowed some bleach. Luther sat on his rear and continued to watch football all day.

I don’t disagree with you. I would go further and say that is what most Christians, Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox believe, in some form or another. They just discuss it and teaching it differently within the contexts of their own traditional teachings. Only the extreme OSAS crowd would say that we cannot under any circumstance lose our salvation (such as the doctrine taught by Charles Stanley)
 
I had a doctor that asked if I minded him praying with me once. I was so impressed that I quickly agreed. I was Church of Christ and suspect that he was Baptist. Loved him as a man, doctor and Christian. 👍
 
Is it at odds because there is a perception that we (speaking of Lutherans here), that grace does not transform us?

Jon
No, I think Lutherans do believe grace transforms us, it’s more to do with our call to achieve perfection, or as the Greeks called it; Theosis.
 
when i was a protestant, i had alot of yellow snow, under my blanket of white snow…never could quite figure out how to disentangle myself from sin. wish i had the rosary, and the sacraments back then. :sad_yes:
 
Our Lord says we shall know a tree by the fruit it bears. Well, I have watched some amazing fruit come from many of the Protestants I know. I know a lot of charitable, caring, giving, honest, loving Protestants who demonstrate an active relationship with Christ, no doubt! I work with a woman who is mennonite and I swear that woman is a saint. She is an angel and one of the kindest, most loving people. When my grandma died, she was the only person on our staff who asked me every day about how I’m doing, how I am, what I need. She asked me to pray with her, took my hands, and prayed this prayer that knocked my socks off. And it was heartfelt. She doesn’t try to convert, has no agenda. Just loves Christ. She is just wonderful. And I’ve known many folks like her of all Christian stripes. Christ is working through many and sanctifying not just Catholics. The proof is in the pudding all over the place.
Absolutely, I think this is why so many Catholics are drawn away from the Church for a time(or forever), because they can find so much “love” out there within other denominations. When you are hurting, yes the 15 minutes in the confessional can do you the world of good, or the hours in front of the Blessed Sacrament, but when you walk out and you are all alone, it is hard. Outside the Catholic Church you can shop and shop until you find the one that accepts you for who you are, who delivers you casseroles when you are sick and who sit and pray with you when you are sad.

NO not all Protestant Churches are like that, and not all Catholic Churches are lacking this, but honestly, depending on where you live in this country, it is sometimes more easy to find the “love” of other Christians outside our Church than in it. In our Church you will find the Sacraments which restore and fill you with Grace, but there are times when people really need the human link to get them through trials and that’s not always easy to find with many Catholic Churches.
 
So true! So many factors are involved in a local parish that make it pastoral and loving and you’re totally right that geographically things vary A LOT. My Catholic parish and this diocese in general is not very pastoral. The priests are pretty bland and distant IMO. Most are horrible with kids, tough to get a hold of, and a touch stuffy. The lay folks are also a touch odd. But overall there is a lot of love for the sacraments here. On Saturday night for confessions, there are usually a bare minimum of 80 people standing in lines for confession. Usually it’s more like 120 folks. There is a well-attended adoration chapel as well. There’s a lot of outreach for the poor. Finally there’s starting to be more focus on fellowship and prayer groups, bible studies, etc

My Anglican parish home was very pastoral, very warm. But also the size was infinitely smaller as well. Our rector (priest) would meet with me and help me through my spiritual turmoil for an hour and a half at a time. I had priests from our Anglican diocese drive an hour south from Fresno to come and pray with, minister to, and counsel my wife and I when we were at our wits end about NFP (that’s another talk show topic, yeesh!)

I have heard of very pastoral, caring, warm, fellowship-laden Catholic parishes across the country. It just doesn’t really describe the one here.

Our Catholic schools here are pretty unimpressive and decayed as well in more ways than one. Yet I hear about Catholic school across America that are thriving.

As you said, it all depends on the locale and the folks

God bless!! 🙂
Absolutely, I think this is why so many Catholics are drawn away from the Church for a time(or forever), because they can find so much “love” out there within other denominations. When you are hurting, yes the 15 minutes in the confessional can do you the world of good, or the hours in front of the Blessed Sacrament, but when you walk out and you are all alone, it is hard. Outside the Catholic Church you can shop and shop until you find the one that accepts you for who you are, who delivers you casseroles when you are sick and who sit and pray with you when you are sad.

NO not all Protestant Churches are like that, and not all Catholic Churches are lacking this, but honestly, depending on where you live in this country, it is sometimes more easy to find the “love” of other Christians outside our Church than in it. In our Church you will find the Sacraments which restore and fill you with Grace, but there are times when people really need the human link to get them through trials and that’s not always easy to find with many Catholic Churches.
 
But in all fairness, I think all Christians feel called to perfection even though we know it cannot take place on earth. Sanctification is something all churches believe in and the inevitable outcome of justification, grace, and the Christ-filled journey. I think all Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants feel the call to perfection. We just know it’s unattainable in the here and now 😛
No, I think Lutherans do believe grace transforms us, it’s more to do with our call to achieve perfection, or as the Greeks called it; Theosis.
 
But in all fairness, I think all Christians feel called to perfection even though we know it cannot take place on earth. Sanctification is something all churches believe in and the inevitable outcome of justification, grace, and the Christ-filled journey. I think all Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants feel the call to perfection. We just know it’s unattainable in the here and now 😛
Yeah, the thing I’m talking about is on a much deeper theological level than that though. What I am trying to explain is in relation to the ontological affects of grace on the human person. I agree that in practice, we’re probably all the same anyway, but what separates us theologically, as Catholics opposed to Lutherans, is the understanding of exactly what grace can achieve for us. It comes from Luther’s over dependence on the Augustinian theology of Fall & Redemption, which heavily accentuated man’s fallen nature. The reason for this was Augustine’s battle with Pelagius, who taught that moral perfection was attainable in this life without the assistance of divine grace through human free will, Saint Augustine contradicted this by saying that perfection was impossible without grace because we are born sinners with a sinful heart and will. This was one of those occasions when a great Saint or Scholar maybe used a little hyperbole to win the argument and we find that Augustine’s ideas where not fully accepted by the Church.
 
Well full theosis/perfection is unattainable in this life. Not even the greatest of the saints save for Mary could reach perfection. Personally I have a great deal of trouble believing in plenary indulgences (heck, I have trouble buying the concept of indulgeces in the first place!) as one is expected to have “no attachment whatsoever to even venial sin.” I think that’s next to impossible and total theosis would be necessary.

St. Augustine was dead-on against Pelagius. With or without God’s grace, though, IMO, we cannot attain perfection in this life.
Yeah, the thing I’m talking about is on a much deeper theological level than that though. What I am trying to explain is in relation to the ontological affects of grace on the human person. I agree that in practice, we’re probably all the same anyway, but what separates us theologically, as Catholics opposed to Lutherans, is the understanding of exactly what grace can achieve for us. It comes from Luther’s over dependence on the Augustinian theology of Fall & Redemption, which heavily accentuated man’s fallen nature. The reason for this was Augustine’s battle with Pelagius, who taught that moral perfection was attainable in this life without the assistance of divine grace through human free will, Saint Augustine contradicted this by saying that perfection was impossible without grace because we are born sinners with a sinful heart and will. This was one of those occasions when a great Saint or Scholar maybe used a little hyperbole to win the argument and we find that Augustine’s ideas where not fully accepted by the Church.
 
Well full theosis/perfection is unattainable in this life. Not even the greatest of the saints save for Mary could reach perfection. Personally I have a great deal of trouble believing in plenary indulgences (heck, I have trouble buying the concept of indulgeces in the first place!) as one is expected to have “no attachment whatsoever to even venial sin.” I think that’s next to impossible and total theosis would be necessary.

St. Augustine was dead-on against Pelagius. With or without God’s grace, though, IMO, we cannot attain perfection in this life.
Attainable or not, it is what we strive for! I do disagree, I think grace works on us, changing us in a real way, preparing us for life in the Trinity. I think that Jesus showed us that this is possible and Mary lived a life transformed by grace. Some have argued John the Baptist was also sinless, and that as we grow to be more conformed to the Divine Will, we hear God more clearly.
 
Woah, wait a minute. I never said it’s NOT what we strive for? Careful now. I never said that. You’re spinning what I’m saying a bit, Fighting. I also never said that Jesus didn’t show us the way. And I never said Mary didn’t live a life transformed by grace either. Obviuosly being born without sin helped! 😛 I’ve never heard of John the Baptist being sin-free. And I also never said that grace doesn’t change us. Obviously it does in a tremendous way. And you’re correct with your use of the word “preparing” us for life in the Trinity. “Preparing” I have no problem with; saying it has been attained apart from Our Lady and Our Lord, not buying it. I see no Christian in history who has attained theosis on earth?
Attainable or not, it is what we strive for! I do disagree, I think grace works on us, changing us in a real way, preparing us for life in the Trinity. I think that Jesus showed us that this is possible and Mary lived a life transformed by grace. Some have argued John the Baptist was also sinless, and that as we grow to be more conformed to the Divine Will, we hear God more clearly.
 
Yeah, the thing I’m talking about is on a much deeper theological level than that though. What I am trying to explain is in relation to the ontological affects of grace on the human person. I agree that in practice, we’re probably all the same anyway, but what separates us theologically, as Catholics opposed to Lutherans, is the understanding of exactly what grace can achieve for us. It comes from Luther’s over dependence on the Augustinian theology of Fall & Redemption, which heavily accentuated man’s fallen nature. The reason for this was Augustine’s battle with Pelagius, who taught that moral perfection was attainable in this life without the assistance of divine grace through human free will, Saint Augustine contradicted this by saying that perfection was impossible without grace because we are born sinners with a sinful heart and will. This was one of those occasions when a great Saint or Scholar maybe used a little hyperbole to win the argument and we find that Augustine’s ideas where not fully accepted by the Church.
I have made no bones about the fact that I think there is enormous congruity between what the East calls theosis and what the Lutherans of the 16th and 17th centuries termed mystical union. The loss of that whole mystical union way of thinking has been a sad loss, in my estimation, for the Lutheran Church, and it has disfigured us. The exclusive description of justification in forensic terms has been reduced to the imparting of information: God declares you righteous for Christ’s sake. That’s indeed the truth, but it is not all of the truth.

Let me put this way: it seems to me that we Lutherans have come over the years to speak of forgiveness almost as a thing, a substance, something along the lines of Rome’s created grace, but even worse, because for Lutherans “forgiveness of sins” has come to be thought of as a mere “get out of hell free” card. Holding it, we think it excuses and indeed wipes out the consequences of lives of impenitence, ignoring the fact that our Confessions are utterly clear that saving faith exists ONLY in penitence. But the whole point of forgiveness is that it is NOT a thing, a substance, or a get out of hell free card. Forgiveness is the Blessed Trinity Himself coming to us in grace, so that His coming to us may be the advent of life and not of the judgment and death we so richly deserve. Forgiveness is given so that “life and salvation” may come with it, that is, that we may live in koinonia with God through Christ, receiving the divine life and being transfigured by that life. “But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.” (2 Cor. 3:18)

So God declares us righteous and then He goes on to make us righteous. Obviously salvation cannot depend upon His making us righteous, since that will never be completed in this age, so long as we remain in the sinful flesh. But both go inevitably together. As Luther explicated it time and again: “grace” and “the gift in grace.” He took grace for the pardoning verdict of God upon a human life, but with that verdict came the Holy Spirit himself, the Gift in grace, who renews us precisely by uniting us to the Son and through the Son to the Father. “That which we have seen and heard, declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us, and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.” (1 John 1:3)

And the Lutheran Confessions explicitly speak of some form of cooperation between the new self and the Holy Spirit, no matter how weak it may be. The Large Catechism clearly speaks in “process” language when it says “In baptism we are given the grace, Spirit, and strength to suppress the old creature so that the new may come forth and grow strong” and “Now, when we enter Christ’s kingdom, this corruption must daily decrease so that the longer we live the more gentle, patient, and meek we become, and the more we break away from greed, hatred, envy and pride.” The Formula expresses the same reality in these words: “It has been sufficiently explained above how God makes willing people out of rebellious and unwilling people through the drawing power of the Holy Spirit, and how after this conversion of the human being the reborn will is not idle in the daily practice of repentance but cooperates in all works of the Holy Spirit that He accomplishes through us.”
 
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