So a Jehovah Witness knocks at my door....

[mtolympus]

[BIBLEDRB]Revelation 1:7[/BIBLEDRB]

Great scripture for showing that it is Jesus Christ who will return. I had not noticed this one before, Thanks. I think it is even more powerful when verses 5 and 6 are included.

[BIBLEDRB]Revelation 1:5-7[/BIBLEDRB]

I get the impression from some posts in other threads that some Catholics do not believe that the Second Coming of Christ is literal. Is this correct?
I have gotten mixed messages on this.

 

[mtolympus]

There really is nothing to be afraid of. If you want to talk with them do that. But if you do not believe what they are teaching, just tell them so. They are respectful people. They are looking for those who may be interested in studying with them. If you let them know you are not, they will go away.

The secret is that they are more afraid of someone actually answering the door, so that they now have to start a conversation. I know this very well. I was a Jehovah’s Witness for seven years and knocked on many doors. They go out in groups for moral support. It was one of the hardest things I ever did in my life.

Your posts are very interesting. I have a couple of questions you may be able to help me with:
1- JW’s doctrine on God seem very similar to the Arian doctrine from the Nicene council of 325AD. Do JWs claim any connection with the original Arians?

2- Perhaps I have missed some, but I have never seen a JW enter a post on the Catholic Forum. Do you know of any reason for this?

 

[chemoangel]

I have a sign on my door that says “No Jehovah Witness Soliciations, we are Catholics, Please do not knock.” It’s as simple as that, they never even ring the doorbell.

 

[Telstar]

Great scripture for showing that it is Jesus Christ who will return. I had not noticed this one before, Thanks. I think it is even more powerful when verses 5 and 6 are included.

[BIBLEDRB]Revelation 1:5-7[/BIBLEDRB]

I get the impression from some posts in other threads that some Catholics do not believe that the Second Coming of Christ is literal. Is this correct?
I have gotten mixed messages on this.

Maybe we should make a new thread about that subject and not hijack this one. Or, we could continue our discussion in the thread where you brought up the topic of the Second Coming, but haven’t even responded to my last post about it.

 

[jonbhorton]

When I was growing up, they would always come to the door until one day Dad, a former Baptist minister, invited them in the house. They got all excited till he busted out the Septuagint with a Greek Concordance. They left soon after and never came back. Guess they didn’t like being faced with the original texts.

 

[SecretGarden]

I used to get them to my door a lot. They actually would stop at my house because I wasn’t afraid to speak with them. I never allowed them into my house because it is hard to rid get of them. If you want to make an appointment, I suggest that you meet them at a coffee shop so that when you have enough you can leave.

There is also another thing you can do that they don’t tell you: you can ask to be put onto a “do not call list.” If you call up your local JW hall. (It’s called a Kingdom Hall I believe.) The number should be available online and ask for it. They have no choice but to stay away. If they do come, ask them directly to put you on the list and they will listen. Otherwise, you can tell them that it is harassment and you will call the police. Either way, they are a peaceful bunch. I did a paper on them a few years ago and interviewed several. They are very pleasant people who know their stuff. In some ways as Catholics we can learn the importance of knowing our stuff because they are very good negotiators and can easily make you question your faith if you aren’t careful.

 

[Michael85]

The following Blackadder quote would be appropriate to use on them:

“Sod off, and if I ever meet you again, it’ll be twenty billion years too soo”’

Seriously, don’t bother debating them. I had a visit from them a couple of days ago. They also mentioned natural disasters, which has been a big issue in New Zealand this year because of the Christchurch earthquake. They tried to give me a Watchtower and an Awake! magazine, but I just said “I’m a Christian” and they left.

JWs attend several religious meetings each week beside the Sunday service. They are heavily indoctrinated and told that Jehovah will annihilate all non-JWs come Armageddon. Mind control is used on members, and those who have committed certain offences are “disfellowshipped”. This is much more serious than excommunication in the Roman Catholic Church because JWs are not allowed to speak to a disfellowshipped member and must shun them. If they do talk to someone who has been disfellowshipped, they can be disfellowshipped themselves. So convincing them to leave the Watchtower Society is much more difficult than convincing a Methodist to become a Catholic, for example. If their family are all JWs, then they’ll be cutting themselves off from them, and if they have children, the JWs have good lawyers who will fight hard for the JW spouse to gain custody of the kids after the highly likely divorce. Convincing them to leave the WS can be done, but it is difficult.

JWs use the original question in this thread “Why do you not call God by his real name” to get the interest of “non-believers” working in their favor. They will usually follow up with something like “It says all throughout the bible we are to call upon the name of YHWH” or “…and YHWH is my name” even in a context where a personal name could never mean anything. As you know this is in fact all through the bible. Then they will try to go as far back as possible to find the BEST translation of this YHWH (which is called the Tetragrammaton) to get to Yehovah (or Jehovah in English) see
lectio.unibe.ch/05_2/troyer_names_of_god.htm. The problems with this thought process begins with the literal translation. As Christians know “in the name of God” (or whatever name you may call God) means much more than a personal name. Moses had to ask God for his name. Until then, God was fine with “God”, “YHH”, “YA”, Elohim”… as long as it was He we worshiped. We take “ in the name of God, YHWY…” to mean “in the name of all goodness” or” in the name of all righteousness” and therefore when the NT comes along and now Jesus (God) is referred to as kyrios (lord) and we make the Trinitarian connection – hence where in the Hebrew (OT) writings you will see the translation of YHWH to Lord. This change to a JW is blaspheme. This to a JW is blasphemy as they do not believe in the Trinity.

I have debated the Jehovah issue with JWs in the past. They responded by saying that Jesus’ name was not originally Jesus, but Yeshua, but we have no problem calling Him Jesus. So they do the same thing with Jehovah (although the transliteration “Jehovah” is actually a mistake). When I asked them about the word Jehovah being used in the NT to translate ‘Kyrios’, they told me that it was done because the instances of ‘Kyrios’ that were translated Jehovah were quotes from the OT (where the Name of God appears in the original Hebrew).

Bringing up the issue of their founder falsely predicting the end of the world probably won’t get you anywhere either. I did it and the JW lady flatly denied that any false predictions have ever been made. You can prove that they were made from old Watchtower issues, but of course I didn’t have those with me at the time.

If you’re going to debate them, then I suggest you first have a good knowledge of Scripture and a good knowledge of their teachings and how to refute them. Be prepared for a long battle.

Some of the problematic beliefs that they hold are:

• Not believing in the Trinity
• Believing that Jesus is St Michael the Archangel
• Believing that Jesus was crucified on a torture stake, not a cross
• Believing that only the 144,000 mentioned in the Book of Revelation will go to heaven, and that all other JWs will live forever on a paradise earth
• Believing that the soul is not immortal (i.e. your soul is ‘you’, not a separate part that survives bodily death)
• Believing that there is no Hell (i.e. Jehovah will annihilate all non-JWs and they will simply cease to exist)

 

[adf417]

Bringing up the issue of their founder falsely predicting the end of the world probably won’t get you anywhere either. I did it and the JW lady flatly denied that any false predictions have ever been made. You can prove that they were made from old Watchtower issues, but of course I didn’t have those with me at the time.

If you’re going to debate them, then I suggest you first have a good knowledge of Scripture and a good knowledge of their teachings and how to refute them. Be prepared for a long battle.:

As I have said before most of my family including my mother converted to JW and this is what has drove me to learned so much about my Catholic faith. Stories like Kathmandu above keep me hopeful that they will come home someday. I do believe you are right, you can’t debate them, unless they are ready and have an open heart. I have never heard a story yet that a JW was converted away from that religion based on reason, faith or logic. Every story I have heard or read, and there have been many, the conversion is based on some sort of difficulty or turmoil in that person’s life where God has made them think for themselves. And giving their disfellowshipping procedures it is always a very sad outcome.

I concur,

have a good knowledge of Scripture and a good knowledge of their teachings

, but don’t expect to change their mind until they have a traumatic, life altering, experience placed into their lives.

God bless!!!

 

[ricofall]

Yes, don’t answer the door. I won’t speak to them on their terms. I only speak to them on my terms…

-Tim-

I appreciate the advise, however for some reason, I feel the need to challenge them on their faith and teachings. Or maybe it is to strengthen mine. Hopefully I will have a different experience.

 

[ricofall]

I used to have them come to my door, however they stay away from me now. I just started asking questions that they did not want to answer. I asked one of them to see their Bible and asked him who translated it. When they said it was “The Committee” I explained the importance of translating the Bible and how easy it was to make mistakes. I also explained how important it is to have the correct schooling before you try something like that. I then just asked very directly if I could have the names of the people on this “Committee” so I could make sure they had the correct background to do this properly. When they told me that the “Committee” was too humble to let their names be known. I explained that this is a huge problem because how do I know that the people who did this were not all high school dropouts? I then suggested that we use my Bible sense we can check the qualifications of the people who translated it.

They left very quickly after that and have never been back sense. I see them on the street, but they avoid my house.

Pax

Pax
I will look more into this “committee”. Thank you

 

[ricofall]

Maybe we should make a new thread about that subject and not hijack this one. Or, we could continue our discussion in the thread where you brought up the topic of the Second Coming, but haven’t even responded to my last post about it.

Thank you Telstar. I will be looking for that thread about revelations because that does interest me as well.

 

[ricofall]

I like to thank you all for your information. I feel that they will soon return (I am kinda hoping for it) with more information. During my research and the information on the forum, here is what I know:

1. They are more of a cult than a religion.
2. You cannot really teach them. You have to ask questions that get them thinking about their faith.
3. Fighting scripture with their scripture may not work since they only recognize only their version of the bible.
4. I am not going to convert them if they are coming to my door. Especially since they work in groups for ‘moral’ support.

Am I correct in this?

 

[Kc906]

I like to thank you all for your information. I feel that they will soon return (I am kinda hoping for it) with more information. During my research and the information on the forum, here is what I know:

1. They are more of a cult than a religion.
2. You cannot really teach them. You have to ask questions that get them thinking about their faith.
3. Fighting scripture with their scripture may not work since they only recognize only their version of the bible.
4. I am not going to convert them if they are coming to my door. Especially since they work in groups for ‘moral’ support.

Am I correct in this?

You are correct on what you are stating here, what you should bring up to them is another thing. Unless you are very strong in your faith and scripture, you should be careful in going back and forth discussing verses with them. If they haven’t already, they will be sure that an experienced member is at your doorstep who is trained to refute what you believe. They make very compelling arguments by taking verses out of context and ignoring other parts of the Word of God, so be careful that your faith could not be swayed by the “story” they will tell you. I would personally recommend discussing these points with them: The insertion of the name Jehovah in the New Testament, the Old Testament verses that show the pre-incarnate Son appearing/speaking as YHWH, early Chuch writings from the Anti-Nicene Fathers (Ignatius, Irenaeus, Martyr, etc…)

There is not 1 valid Greek NT manuscript that has the tetragrammaton written in it; yet they still insert the name 237 times in the NT. This changes the meaning of all the verses of course, but more importantly you see the context of verses changed in Romans 10:9-13, Revelations 1:7, and plenty others.

Next, you can look to these 3 verses in scripture: Isaiah 45:22-24, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:9-11. The NWT incorrectly inserts Jehovah in Romans 14:11 instead of Lord, yet they do not insert Jehovah for Lord (Kyrios) in Philippians; why the inconsistency? Notice when you read the verse in Isaiah YHWH is talking in first person, “that to me every knee shall bow.” The Watchtower agrees that every knee will bow to Jehovah in Romans 14:11, but they do not insert the word Jehovah for Kyrios (Lord) in Philippians. If they were consistent through all of these 3 verses, then they would have to state that Jesus is Jehovah, which of course they will not do under any circumstance.

Lastly, Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would come and lead the apostles into “all truth” John 16:13. They taught all the truth and brought in new disciples as they carried out their task set by the Lord; going out and ORALLY teaching the Word of God. These oral teachings were written down in scripture, but also by men who were not infallible, but disciples in the early Church nonetheless (early Church Fathers.) Since JW’s adhere to Sola Sciptura, they have to show in scripture that the Church would fall into apostasy right away. Without any proof of this, the JW’s just simply don’t have a leg to stand on. Because their unique views about God do not match the views that the early Church held, the one that was led into all truth, held at the time and still holds till this day.

 

[Telstar]

Thank you Telstar. I will be looking for that thread about revelations because that does interest me as well.

You’re welcome, ricofall. Actually, there was a thread several weeks ago about the “rapture” that was pretty interesting. It might be 2 or 3 pages back. You could probably find it if you did a search on this forum section for “rapture” in the title or text. The post I was discussing with mtolympus was in the “LDS and ancient record” thread, where he brought up the subject of ‘the restitution of all things’ (aka, the end of the world). You can see the beginning of that discussion, here. His first post referencing it is post #227.

 

[austenbosten]

One of my Lutheran pastors had a hilarious way of dealing with Jehovah’s WItnesses…it would go like this:

Pr Mark. - So you guys believe that…how many will be able to go to Heaven?

JW - Oh we believe that only 144,000 faithful Christians will enter God’s Kingdom and only 144,000

Pr. Mark - And how many members are there in your church? :ehh:

JW - Oh about 7.5 million worldwide

Awkward Pause

Pr. Mark - :ehh:

JW -

JW -

JW -

Pr. Mark - Well have fun with that

hahaha it’s great.

 

[Tony888]

One of my Lutheran pastors had a hilarious way of dealing with Jehovah’s WItnesses…it would go like this:

hahaha it’s great.

I enjoyed that response. Personally, I just had an elderly JW couple stop by my door.
I chatted for a minute about Christ as our saviour, then thanked them for their missionary zeal as they went on their way.

Maybe I should debate them next time, but my spirit moved me to show charity rather than argue. Or maybe I was selfish and wanted to get back to work

 

[kanzaz]

It is a corrupt organization. I was having mental health problems. I was a mother of two young children with an alcoholic husband. The JW elders did not know how to deal with me . They do not advocate seeing psychologists. They like to pretend that all JW’s are happy, well adjusted people and the “truth” solves everyone’s problems.

So they told lies about me. They said I disassociating myself from their organization. They had no grounds to “disfellowship” me, so this was their course of action. This means I lost my place of worship, and all my friends and associates within the JW community. Black listed. Essentially x-communicated.

I went on to start a new life, went back to school, made new friends and associates. This happened in the mid-eighties. I am a strong person and was able to get on with my life, but many others who this happens to don’t fare so well.

This organization can tear families apart. People are not treated lovingly. They are mostly concerned about appearances, that people dress and behave properly. They call it being unworldly. This is very important to them.

I used to work at a university where the JW’s had their yearly conventions. I would have to walk by them on my way to my office. These people are the most joyless folks I can ever remember encountering. All dressed up on a hot summer day, unfriendly because they are not witnessing to you at the time, and all the while thinking they are making a good impression. It is a cult and most are afraid to leave, not free to leave. The elders did me a favor in the long run.

This is not a ecumenical religion. It is them against the world. The are not Christian. They do not believe in the Trinity. But their faith is in God’s kingdom, and we do have that much in common. In other areas, you just have to tell them that you don’t believe what they are saying. If you don’t accept it, there is no point of discussion. Their bible is a manipulated translation, event through they say they went back to original texts. If you are planning on discussing anything make sure you have your own bible in hand. I always keep one of theirs for comparison purposes along with King James, modern Protestant and Catholic versions.

But don’t be afraid of them. Just stand your ground. If you are strong in your faith you will have no problems. Just remember that some are ex-catholics and most have a hatred of the Roman Catholic Church. They call it Babylon the Great. They consider protestants a sub-set or Roman Catholicism. Any world religion is evil in their eyes.

See I Knew A little about This , I’m not A JW but as A Kid My Grandmother & Them use to tell Us kids Not to Answer the Door for the JW’s , & I use to wonder why as I got Older & did Some Research in the Cult I’ve learned a lot about how they’re Run & call them selves A Organization instead of A Actual Religion , That right their Should be A RED FLAG that its not Real .

& God Bless You & May you find your Holy Home with God now .

 

[Pepband_Mom]

Aren’t the 144,000 in Revelation single, male eunachs??? (spelling)

A great read Is Jason Evert’s book on JW’s you can get it on catholic.com

 

[stevekehl]

I haven’t read all the posts, but part of the JW theology is that Jesus was the archangel Michael in human form and that Michael is the only archangel. This is how they work around Corinthians where Jesus is called the firstfruits of creation. Show them Daniel 10:13
Dan 10:13 The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia,
It says plainly that Michael is one of the chief princes of heaven.
Also when they try to tell you Jesus was not divine point out Colossians.
**Col. 2:9 ** For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
God Bless you for your courage.

 

[jw2lds2catholic]

They will bring back the special teams, those trained specifically in Catholic doctrine, trained to get you to doubt. Be very careful.

-Tim-

Really? I was a JW for a few years, an aux pioneer back in the day that required 60 hrs of field service a month. We never had ‘special teams’. Now, if the study was sincere about his question, maybe I’d invite a convert from the study’s faith, but on a simple return visit to drop off a magazine or two - no one would go through that much trouble.

How did I get out? The lack of joy. I appreciated the studious nature of the faith, but there was no joy - just activity and peer pressure. I was a proud JW who quote whip out scripture like on else - I loved debating the trinity because, biblically on a verse by verse basis, it isn’t there. But there is no joy in debate. No joy in singing ‘hymns’ to a recording. No joy in listening to lecture after lecture in meeting after asembly after convention. Now, silence in the presence of Jesus in the Eurachrist can bring me to tears. THATS joy.
BTW - I read ‘The Shack’ and have a totally new perscpective on the Trinity doctrine. I accept, by faith, and not reason alone, that Jesus IS God. (It took me a decade to accept that truth and I still cringe just a tiny bit every time I say it, lol, because it was such an ingrained part of who I was. It’s like hearing a wrong note to a song you have heard hundreds of times. I simply learned the tune wrong).