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xdz
Guest
True true… but I didn’t mean to criticise them in such a way despite me knowing it came off as rude… I guess next time I should just keep words like that to myself or tell them in a nicer way?
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JulianN
Guest
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Vico
Guest
Christians profess one God and Last Day as expressed in the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed. That God is absolutely simple and yet three persons is a mystery rather than something to be grasped (there is no vision of the Essence itself unveiled). John 1:18 No one has ever seen God. The only Son, God, who is at the Father’s side, has revealed him.
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xdz
Guest
Okay~
Thank you~
Thank you~
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thistle
Guest
That is true. I asked a Muslim if there was maybe simply historical context to that and it does not apply today but he told me it does apply.
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Cruciferi
Guest
I believe that you had good intentions. I wouldn’t want them to break their fast on my account either. They could’ve been more understanding.
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xdz
Guest
I did have good intentions, yes, at least I thought I did haha
Niblo
Patron
You really ought to have asked him to quote chapter and verse from the Qur’an…with context. In short, to prove his allegation.
You might also have asked: ‘In that case…why is it permissible for a Muslim to marry a Christian woman…and why does she have the absolute right not only to retain her Faith, but to practise it?’ This is part of Islamic law, based on the Qur’an and Sunnah. By the way, my wife (of 38 years come the 15 Feb) is a Catholic.
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poche
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The time will come when we will find out who is right. However Pope Francis just had a meeting with the head of Al Azhar and they signed an agreement that essentially contradicted what your Muslim friend said. I think he knows more about Islam than your two cheating Muslim friends.
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steve-b
Guest
Do I understand correctly, that highlighted statement was meant TIC?
Mohammad, their initiator, died and is still in the ground.
As for us
Paul argued. ,
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JMMJ
Guest
OP you were rude by commenting on their breaking of that fast. Under no circumstances was that any of your business. I assume it was “game on” after you did that.
When you talk about religion with people who don’t believe the way you do, this is what you sometimes get. It is a gamble and it is why many people follow the rules of “no politics and no religion” discussions.
When you talk about religion with people who don’t believe the way you do, this is what you sometimes get. It is a gamble and it is why many people follow the rules of “no politics and no religion” discussions.
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Niblo
Patron
Allāh (subḥānahu ūta’āla) created human beings as equals, who are to be distinguished from each other only on the basis of their faith and piety. He tells us: ‘People, We created you all from a single man and a single woman, and made you into races and tribes so that you should know one another. In Allāh’s eyes, the most honoured of you are the ones most mindful of Him: Allāh is all knowing, all aware.’ (Al-Hujurat: 13)
Not only are human beings created as equals, they are given different paths to follow:
‘We have assigned a law and a path to each of you. If Allāh had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to Allāh and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 48).
The message is clear: Whatever path we happen to be on – whatever law we happen to follow – we are each of us called to do good.
Referring to Jews and Christians, Allāh (subḥānahu ūta’āla) assures us that: ‘Those (among them) who believe, and do good deeds, are the best of creation. Their reward with their Lord is everlasting Gardens graced with flowing streams, where they will stay forever. Allāh is well pleased with them and they with Him. All this is for those who stand in awe of their Lord.’ (Al-Bayyina: 7-8).
The Exalted has made this promise; and He does not renege on His promises.
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thistle
Guest
How about what the Quran tells you:
“not to make friendship with Jews and Christians” (5:51), “kill the disbelievers wherever we find them” (2:191), “murder them and treat them harshly” (9:123), “fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem”
Niblo
Patron
There is peril in rippling verses out of context. Let’s return them to their rightful places:
‘Fight in Allāh’s cause against those who fight you, but do not overstep the limits (‘la ta tadu’): Allāh does not love those who overstep the limits. Kill them wherever you encounter them, and drive them out from where they drove you out, for persecution is more serious than killing. Do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque unless they fight you there. If they do fight you, kill them – this is what such disbelievers deserve – but if they stop, then Allāh is most forgiving and merciful. Fight them until there is no more persecution, and worship is devoted to Allāh. If they cease hostilities, there can be no (further) hostility, except towards aggressors.’ (Al-Baqara: 190-193).
Three lines require clarification.
‘………………but do not overstep the limits’. The scholars agree that the Arabic command ‘la ta tadu’ prohibits the starting of hostilities; fighting non-combatants; and making a disproportionate response to aggression.
‘Kill them wherever you encounter them’. The Muslims were concerned as to whether it was permitted to retaliate when attacked within the sacred precincts in Mecca (when on pilgrimage). In this line, they are given permission to fight back wherever they encounter their attackers, in the precinct or outside it.
‘Fight them until there is no more persecution, and worship is devoted to Allāh.’ This refers to worship in the Sacred Mosque. Fighting is permissible only against aggressors, and must cease just as soon as their aggression ceases.
Note: These verses do not refer to Jews or Christians.
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Niblo
Patron
‘You who believe, do not take the Jews and Christians as allies (‘awliyāa’): they are allies (‘awliyāu’) only to each other. Anyone who takes them as an ally becomes one of them – Allāh does not guide such wrongdoers – yet you (Prophet) will see the perverse at heart rushing to them for protection, saying, ‘We are afraid fortune may turn against us.’ But Allāh may well bring about a triumph or some other event of His own making: then they will rue the secrets they harboured in their hearts, and the believers will say, ‘Are these the men who swore by Allāh using their strongest oaths that they were with you?’ All they did was in vain: they have lost everything.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 51-53).
Al-Ma’ida contains verses that are considered to be among the last that the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) received. Seyyed Nasr Hossein reminds us that the sūrah: ‘Is concerned (with) the definitive establishment of relations between the Muslim community and the People of the Book. Thus in verse 5, Muslims are allowed to eat their food and to marry women from among them, thereby allowing for substantial social relations between Muslims and the People of the Book.’ (‘The Study Quran: A new Translation and Commentary’).
Here is verse 5:
‘Today all good things have been made lawful for you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful for you as your food is lawful for them. So are chaste, believing, women as well as chaste women of the people who were given the Scripture before you, as long as you have given them their bride-gifts and married them, not taking them as lovers or secret mistresses. The deeds of anyone who rejects faith will come to nothing, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.’
As you can see, personal relationships (including friendship and marriage) between Muslims and the People of the Book are permissible.
Hossein goes on:
‘But in verses 51–57, political boundaries are established between these communities, as Muslims are warned not to take Jews and Christians as protectors to the exclusion of members of the Muslim religious community (although Islamic Law does allow treaties of alliance between the Muslim state, or states, and Christian or Jewish political entities).’
Al-Ma’ida contains verses that are considered to be among the last that the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) received. Seyyed Nasr Hossein reminds us that the sūrah: ‘Is concerned (with) the definitive establishment of relations between the Muslim community and the People of the Book. Thus in verse 5, Muslims are allowed to eat their food and to marry women from among them, thereby allowing for substantial social relations between Muslims and the People of the Book.’ (‘The Study Quran: A new Translation and Commentary’).
Here is verse 5:
‘Today all good things have been made lawful for you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful for you as your food is lawful for them. So are chaste, believing, women as well as chaste women of the people who were given the Scripture before you, as long as you have given them their bride-gifts and married them, not taking them as lovers or secret mistresses. The deeds of anyone who rejects faith will come to nothing, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.’
As you can see, personal relationships (including friendship and marriage) between Muslims and the People of the Book are permissible.
Hossein goes on:
‘But in verses 51–57, political boundaries are established between these communities, as Muslims are warned not to take Jews and Christians as protectors to the exclusion of members of the Muslim religious community (although Islamic Law does allow treaties of alliance between the Muslim state, or states, and Christian or Jewish political entities).’
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Niblo
Patron
'You who believe, fight the disbelievers near you and let them find you standing firm (‘ghil’ẓatan’): be aware that Allāh is with those who are mindful of Him.’ (Al-Tawba: 123). This verse refers to action against the polytheists. It does not refer to Jews or Christians.
The word ‘ghil’ẓatan’ can be rendered ‘harshness’ (Seyyed Nasr Hossein does so in his ‘Study Quran’); but can also be rendered ‘strong’. Either way, it means that the Muslims of Medina were commanded to stand firm when under attack from the idolatrous Arabs (the ‘disbelievers) who sought to destroy them.
The verse does not refer to the People of the Book.
I hope this helps.
Very best regards, and have a great day.
The word ‘ghil’ẓatan’ can be rendered ‘harshness’ (Seyyed Nasr Hossein does so in his ‘Study Quran’); but can also be rendered ‘strong’. Either way, it means that the Muslims of Medina were commanded to stand firm when under attack from the idolatrous Arabs (the ‘disbelievers) who sought to destroy them.
The verse does not refer to the People of the Book.
I hope this helps.
Very best regards, and have a great day.
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ontheway1
Guest
WOW!! A pretty heavy discussion over a trivial comment. There is nothing wrong with what the OP said to the Muslims at lunch. He simply embarrassed them. SO WHAT! They are Muslims and should not eat during Ramadan. They are very proud of this and will throw it in our face as a sign of superiority of their faith over ours. Get over it.
Just a quick question though - should I assume that we are dealing here with young adults. Say, under the age of 24 or so?
And a brief short story from my own experience. Sitting in a cafe in a Muslim country, I struck up a conversation with a young Muslim man, early 20’s. He was in the military and had served in one of the Gulf states. He was describing drinking and dancing with foreign girls at a disco in the place he was living. That’s haram, I told him, tongue in cheek. “A little haram is ok” he responded with a chuckle.
People - get a grip. Life goes on. Smile more.
Just a quick question though - should I assume that we are dealing here with young adults. Say, under the age of 24 or so?
And a brief short story from my own experience. Sitting in a cafe in a Muslim country, I struck up a conversation with a young Muslim man, early 20’s. He was in the military and had served in one of the Gulf states. He was describing drinking and dancing with foreign girls at a disco in the place he was living. That’s haram, I told him, tongue in cheek. “A little haram is ok” he responded with a chuckle.
People - get a grip. Life goes on. Smile more.
Niblo
Patron
Excellent advice. If I were that (unmarried) soldier…
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