So, Am I Still a Catholic?

[Tis_Bearself]

Scripture itself supports the reliance on the sacraments to make you a member of Jesus’ one true church.

John 3:5 for Baptism:

Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

John 6:53-56 for Holy Eucharist:

Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54 Whoever eats[a] my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

John 15:26-27 for Confirmation:

Jesus said to his disciples: “When the Advocate comes whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth that proceeds from the Father, he will testify to me. And you also testify, because you have been with me from the beginning.”

This is straight from Jesus himself. It is basic. You really have to work hard to come up with some alternative idea as to who’s in a church and who’s out.

 

[spockrates]

Scripture itself supports the reliance on the sacraments to make you a member of Jesus’ one true church.

John 3:5 for Baptism:

Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

Yeah, yeah! Dude! You don’t have to convince me of the importance of the sacraments. John 6 is one reason I’m here.

Just wondering about the importance or unimportance of faith. I mean, what if after receiving these three sacraments I left the Church, never attended mass again, and never believed nor trusted in the sacraments? Would I still be in the same boat I am now?

 

[Cor_ad_Cor]

Just wondering about the importance or unimportance of faith. I mean, what if after receiving these three sacraments I left the Church, never attended mass again, and never believed nor trusted in the sacraments? Would I still be in the same boat I am now?

Think of faith and your understanding as the mortar between the bricks. You can’t have a solid structure without the bricks, and those are the sacraments. Alone, they can still provide a pretty sturdy structure, but there’s opportunity to knock things down, detach, etc. When you understand your faith and start to truly believe, you’re adding that adhesive mortar that will solidify everything together. It’s much smaller in context and scale, not so noticed or emphasized, but it really does seem quite important once you recognize what it does.

 

[spockrates]

spockrates:

Just wondering about the importance or unimportance of faith. I mean, what if after receiving these three sacraments I left the Church, never attended mass again, and never believed nor trusted in the sacraments? Would I still be in the same boat I am now?

Think of faith and your understanding as the mortar between the bricks. You can’t have a solid structure without the bricks, and those are the sacraments. Alone, they can still provide a pretty sturdy structure, but there’s opportunity to knock things down, detach, etc. When you understand your faith and start to truly believe, you’re adding that adhesive mortar that will solidify everything together. It’s much smaller in context and scale, not so noticed or emphasized, but it really does seem quite important once you recognize what it does.

Isn’t building a brick house with no mortar kind of like building a house on sinking sand? I mean, who does that! Right?

26 Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”
(Matthew 7)

 

[mVitus]

I mean, what if after receiving these three sacraments I left the Church, never attended mass again, and never believed nor trusted in the sacraments? Would I still be in the same boat I am now?

I can’t judge your soul. But let’s take hypothetical Bob. Bob is baptized Catholic. As he grows up, he moves to Evangelicalism and never looks back. But he can still be saved. If he’s invincible ignorant, in other words he honestly doesn’t know he should be a practicing Catholic (maybe his parents left when he was 1 and never taught him elsewise for example), it would not be held against him. Now he wouldn’t have access to the sacraments but God can work through extraordinary means. But if he truly knew Catholicism is Christ’s Church and still remained Evangelical, then problems arise.
Now if Bob returns however, he has access to the sacraments. Especially of Confession and Eucharist. Not to mention 2,000 years of teaching to draw upon. And those are a great help.

 

[Cor_ad_Cor]

Isn’t building a brick house with no mortar kind of like building a house on sinking sand? I mean, who does that! Right?

Not quite the same thing, no. And centuries ago, plenty of solid edifices were constructed by brick upon brick construction with nothing in between. They were quite solid and some are still standing, hundreds of years later.

Likewise, you can (as others have said) be a minimalist Catholic receiving the sacraments only and do the bare minimum of what is prescribed and live a life that warrants eternity. However, there is more assurance, more solidity, more reliability in life’s storms and turbulence when you’ve taken it to the next step and understood why you do what you do, why you believe what you profess, and have that intimate walk with Christ that the Evangelicals talk about so much. The difference is that we have very real, tangible ways in which to take that walk that others are missing out on. Our Catholic faith, when lived well, is one of “both/and” not “either/or”.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Just wondering about the importance or unimportance of faith. I mean, what if after receiving these three sacraments I left the Church, never attended mass again, and never believed nor trusted in the sacraments? Would I still be in the same boat I am now?

Faith is, to some extent, a gift from God. We aren’t just issued it like a military ration. We were just telling Veronica Rabbit that on the other thread.

People can have difficulty with faith for a variety of reasons: not being raised with good examples of faith or good catechesis about faith, having some terrible trauma that makes them succumb to doubting God, being under attack by the Devil, being influenced by bad companions or the secular world, or just having spiritual dryness where they want to believe but can’t. Mother Theresa had the latter for years, but still went about her work for God despite her doubts, and is a saint today. So God would take into account what caused you to lose your faith or never have it. If you had never been properly taught, or if a priest abused you as a child, and as a result you lost faith, you’re on a different level than the guy who just decided it was too much trouble to believe in all that church stuff and quit to pursue a worldly, sinful life.

Not even all the Apostles had the gift of faith. Peter clearly had it, and Jesus recognized that. Thomas on the other hand didn’t believe Jesus actually rose from the dead until Jesus physically showed up and proved it. Thomas was still a great Apostle and did great work for the Lord.

Likewise, hope and charity are also gifts. We should all be praying daily for an increase in all three gifts for ourselves and for anyone else who needs them.

I’m relatively lucky that I haven’t had many issues with faith or hope. Charity is my biggest struggle, because I find people to be pretty annoying (we’ll leave it at that). Somebody else might have a great love for his fellow humans and do all kinds of charity work but he’s an atheist. It’s hard to say who is the “better Christian” - God knows our hearts and does the judging. (It is popular in this world to judge on the worldly results only and say that the guy who does the most for others is the holiest, but we need to keep in mind that some of them are doing it for the name recognition or for other gains and also that Jesus’ commandments were to love your neighbor AND love the Lord your God.)

Think of the “being Catholic” as just getting your membership card to a club that isn’t going to kick you out unless you do something really horrible against the rules, like try to destroy the entire organization, but at the same time you’re called to be a good member and actually try to fulfill your membership duties. Also, when you go to Mass and say the Profession of Faith (or at other times you say the Creed), that’s stating all what you believe. If you can’t honestly say you believe all those things, then you need to make your best effort to do so. Effort is not overlooked. But if you’re just being spiritually lazy, then you’re still a member, but not in good standing.

(Cont next post, char lim)

 

[Tis_Bearself]

As for being in the same boat you are now - it’s irrelevant how you got in the boat or if you or someone else would be in the same place. What’s important is that you’re now here, wanting to resume practice and get a good faith (and hope and charity) life going. That’s half the battle. Contrary to what you see on CAF, we don’t spend all day testing people to see if they’re going to Hell or not on any given day - we’re not like Evangelicals that way. We get to Heaven by making the best efforts we can and depending for the rest on the mercy of God (and we can also ask Mary and the saints to pray for us).

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Your question pertains to “practicing” Catholic vs “ non practicing ” Catholic. Both are Catholic.

Practicing as in, living out / persevering, in one’s faith to the end. As we know from scripture, if we want a good ending to our life, we need to persevere in our faith till the end.

Interesting. In Evangelical circles, there’s a great deal of emphasis on believe what they call essentials of the faith. If one believes the wrong things, one has faith in a different gospel and is likely hell bound, they say. Faith in the right beliefs is what they stress.

Like wise interesting …

“Evangelical circles” / evangelicalism, as we understand these groups, still point to their roots, of Protestantism

spockrates:

In contrast, the emphasis here seems to be on the sacraments.

• Was I baptised by a priest?
• Did I receive my first Holy Communion?
• Did I participate in my first Confession?
• Was I confirmed when I was young?

These events seem to be the means by which I become a Christian.

For clarity, All Catholics are Christian, not all Christians are Catholic.

for a quick historical reference

Acts 9:31 From the Greek Study Bible Ἡ μὲν οὖν ἐκκλησία καθ’ ὅλης τῆς
Translation: ἐκκλησία = church,
καθ’ = according to,
ὅλης = whole, entire, universal,
τῆς = the,
= the Kataholos Church = the Catholic Church.

Before we had a NT,

Bishop Ignatius of Antioch, ordained by the apostles, made bishop of Antioch in ~69 a.d. That is before the book of Acts just quoted was written. He was also a direct disciple of St John the apostle. Ignatius wrote 6 letters to the Church in 6 locations. In his writings, he calls the “Church” he’s writing to the Catholic Church.
St Ignatius, uses Christian in (ch 2) and Catholic Church in (ch 8) in his Epistle to the Smyrnæans Also note: He writes, schismatics won’t be going to heaven, in his Epistle to the Philadelphians ch 3
Ignatius is passing on what he learned from the apostles.

spockrates:

The fact that I don’t remember most of what I learned to be confirmed really doesn’t seem to matter much, it seems.

In short, sacraments actually do what they profess. One is only baptized validly, once. If it is a Catholic priest, or Catholic deacon, that is a Catholic Baptism. One is only confirmed in the Catholic Church once. If one went through those sacraments they also have been to confession an Eucharist.

If one has been away from the faith, for a long time, they probably need a refresher course in the faith. First step is the sacrament of reconciliation

 

[steve-b]

Tis_Bearself:

Scripture itself supports the reliance on the sacraments to make you a member of Jesus’ one true church.

John 3:5 for Baptism:

Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

Yeah, yeah! Dude! You don’t have to convince me of the importance of the sacraments. John 6 is one reason I’m here.

Just wondering about the importance or unimportance of faith. I mean, what if after receiving these three sacraments I left the Church, never attended mass again, and never believed nor trusted in the sacraments? Would I still be in the same boat I am now?

spockrates,

I posted this link multiple times on CAF’s. A Catholic priest went through a NDE. His story was told by Fr Joseph Mary Wolf in a homily, 30+ years layer later in an EWTN mass. Note the souls he saw in hell, and what they were there for. Father Jose Maniyangat Story Hell,Heaven and Purgatory by father Mary Joseph in his homily. - YouTube .

Point being, we are all going to be judged. Souls are going to be permanently separated…forever, either heaven or hell. We need to choose wisely.

 

[MonteRCMS]

On Amazon, they sell the Baltimore Catechism that has been updated.

And is easier to read than the full sized Catechism of the Catholic Church which is a fantastic reference.

Get both.

And refer back and forth.

In addition, Karl Keating “started out” by writing the tracts which he used as the basis for founding Catholic Answers.

His first book was “Catholicism and Fundamentalism”, which was a collection of articles that first appeared in the newspaper “The Wanderer”.

Karl recommended a number of previously published books and when they turned out to be out of print, he arranged to have them republished.

 

[Gorgias]

I guess what I’m asking is this: Is it the sacraments that make me a Catholic and not putting faith in the doctrines I comprehend?

Look to the parable of the prodigal son. His actions – that is, the fact that he didn’t place his faith in his father and his father’s desires for his life – did not make him “not a son”. In fact, when he came back – absolutely certain that he’d been disowned – his father shocked him by welcoming him back home warmly to hearth and family!

It is your baptism as a Catholic that makes you a Catholic. Period. Forever. Full stop.

Learn what you can about the faith… but never doubt your status as a son of God, a brother of Jesus, and a member of His Church!

 

[Gorgias]

And is easier to read than the full sized Catechism of the Catholic Church which is a fantastic reference.

Get both.

And refer back and forth.

I would recommend the “U.S. Catholic Catechism for Adults”, which can be accessed for free online at the website of the U.S. Catholic Conference of Bishops. It really does read more easily than the Catechism of the Catholic Church (which, too, is available at the USCCB site!), and for a contemporary reader, it actually is more readable than a Baltimore Catechism. (If you really want a simple “question and answer” format, then the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church is the book you want.)

 

[spockrates]

spockrates:

Isn’t building a brick house with no mortar kind of like building a house on sinking sand? I mean, who does that! Right?

Not quite the same thing, no. And centuries ago, plenty of solid edifices were constructed by brick upon brick construction with nothing in between. They were quite solid and some are still standing, hundreds of years later.

Likewise, you can (as others have said) be a minimalist Catholic receiving the sacraments only and do the bare minimum of what is prescribed and live a life that warrants eternity. However, there is more assurance, more solidity, more reliability in life’s storms and turbulence when you’ve taken it to the next step and understood why you do what you do, why you believe what you profess, and have that intimate walk with Christ that the Evangelicals talk about so much. The difference is that we have very real, tangible ways in which to take that walk that others are missing out on. Our Catholic faith, when lived well, is one of “both/and” not “either/or”.

Fascinating! So, please allow me to use an example, as that will make it easier for me to understand. Let’s say (God forbid!) I commit a mortal sin. I go to confession and confess it and say the prayers the priest recommends. Repentance doesn’t really come into play. For I fully intend to mortally sin again, hedging my bets that I’ll be able to confess before I die. But just my luck! I get hit by a car and die before I can have the joy of mortally sinning again!

Saying this all tongue in cheek, of course! Extreme examples help with the discussion. Right? I mean, what do you think? Would the one described likely escape hell and find himself in purgatory?

 

[spockrates]

spockrates:

Would it be frowned upon to read the words using my iPhone during mass?

If people judge you, that’s on them. You’d be looking at it for the right reasons.

Any parts in particular you don’t know the words for? Or just overall?

It’s vaguely familiar when heard but I’m unable to speak it. A familiar experience is knowing what is said when a foreign language isn’t spoken but being unable to speak it oneself - like when I lived in Italy for a short time while serving in the US Army.

 

[spockrates]

As for being in the same boat you are now - it’s irrelevant how you got in the boat or if you or someone else would be in the same place. What’s important is that you’re now here, wanting to resume practice and get a good faith (and hope and charity) life going. That’s half the battle. Contrary to what you see on CAF, we don’t spend all day testing people to see if they’re going to Hell or not on any given day - we’re not like Evangelicals that way. We get to Heaven by making the best efforts we can and depending for the rest on the mercy of God (and we can also ask Mary and the saints to pray for us).

Yeah, yeah! I like that Catholics see those of various Christian dominations as having part of the truth.

But when you say I should seek a better faith, do you mean faith in the sense of the doctrines of Catholicism or faith in the sense of trust in God?

 

[spockrates]

spockrates:

steve-b:

Your question pertains to “practicing” Catholic vs “ non practicing ” Catholic. Both are Catholic.

Practicing as in, living out / persevering, in one’s faith to the end. As we know from scripture, if we want a good ending to our life, we need to persevere in our faith till the end.

Interesting. In Evangelical circles, there’s a great deal of emphasis on believe what they call essentials of the faith. If one believes the wrong things, one has faith in a different gospel and is likely hell bound, they say. Faith in the right beliefs is what they stress.

Like wise interesting …

“Evangelical circles” / evangelicalism, as we understand these groups, still point to their roots, of Protestantism

spockrates:

In contrast, the emphasis here seems to be on the sacraments.

• Was I baptised by a priest?
• Did I receive my first Holy Communion?
• Did I participate in my first Confession?
• Was I confirmed when I was young?

These events seem to be the means by which I become a Christian.

For clarity, All Catholics are Christian, not all Christians are Catholic.

for a quick historical reference

Acts 9:31 From the Greek Study Bible Ἡ μὲν οὖν ἐκκλησία καθ’ ὅλης τῆς
Translation: ἐκκλησία = church,
καθ’ = according to,
ὅλης = whole, entire, universal,
τῆς = the,
= the Kataholos Church = the Catholic Church.

Before we had a NT,

Bishop Ignatius of Antioch, ordained by the apostles, made bishop of Antioch in ~69 a.d. That is before the book of Acts just quoted was written. He was also a direct disciple of St John the apostle. Ignatius wrote 6 letters to the Church in 6 locations. In his writings, he calls the “Church” he’s writing to the Catholic Church.
St Ignatius, uses Christian in (ch 2) and Catholic Church in (ch 8) in his Epistle to the Smyrnæans Also note: He writes, schismatics won’t be going to heaven, in his Epistle to the Philadelphians ch 3
Ignatius is passing on what he learned from the apostles.

spockrates:

The fact that I don’t remember most of what I learned to be confirmed really doesn’t seem to matter much, it seems.

In short, sacraments actually do what they profess. One is only baptized validly, once. If it is a Catholic priest, or Catholic deacon, that is a Catholic Baptism. One is only confirmed in the Catholic Church once. If one went through those sacraments they also have been to confession an Eucharist.

If one has been away from the faith, for a long time, they probably need a refresher course in the faith. First step is the sacrament of reconciliation

Thank you .

 

[Cor_ad_Cor]

I would suggest that going to Confession with the full intent to commit mortal sin again renders the sacrament null and void. We must approach with full repentance. That is a condition of the sacrament itself. Sacraments aren’t magic; there is a component of faith that they work in particular ways according to the way in which Christ instituted them and the Church safeguards and administers them.

 

[mVitus]

Faith is, to some extent, a gift from God.

That is very true. Just the other day in a priest’s homily he talked about his time in the seminary. He wasn’t entirely sure he should be a priest given all his faults. Especially because he didn’t feel like he had faith. So he asked his spiritual director how to have faith. His spiritual director’s advice: Get down on your knees, and beg. Because faith is a gift of God that we’re given. Not something we make for ourselves.

Another interesting thing on faith I’ve read contrasted the “faith” with how we use it today and with how it was used in the past. Today we often use it to say “Believing something without evidence.” But in the past it meant, “Belieiving something on the word of another.” And so when we look at the early Church, when we look at God’s words in Scripture, we can take that as a rock for faith. We can say “I believe in God because I trust the words of Scripture.”

 

[mVitus]

Like Cor said, it probably wouldn’t be valid. Confession requires at least imperfect contrition. (Sorrow from fear of hell. Contrasted with perfect contrition with is sorrow for offending God.) And also a desire to avoid the sin in the future. (So if you had a habit of doing sin X and knew you were probably going to fall into X again, but desired not to, that’s enough.) In other words, the requirements for Confession are very few. Forgiveness is waiting for you.