So an Eastern bishop came to my parish

[Hesychios]

What volumes would those be? The OP is a high school student Michael.

Yes I realize that, it is obvious the person is young, but that’s not exactly the point and I am sorry my post came off as an attack on him. It was really a commentary. The whole thing saddens me. Why?

This question could have come from anyone. There might be millions who would have the same questions.

The fact that the OP knows enough to question the licity means he has been reading up and exposed to this kind of question before (probably right here at CAF), the fact that others on this thread were also willing to entertain the possibility of it being illicit speaks volumes too!

Why would anyone, of any age, think that their bishop would do something so stupid? It staggers the imagination. What has happened to the church that the rank and file have so little confidence in both a parish priest (who trained for many years) and his bishop (appointed to his office by none other the the Pope)? People will question anything and everything, they really don’t believe in the hierarchy.

Has the church sunk so low? Where is the trust we sheep should have in the shepherd?

It is also saddening that so many know so little about the “eastern lung”. When I was confirmed many many years ago It was by a missionary bishop from Peru. That still happens routinely, and no one would think that it was illicit, but when the guy comes from sister church (that has been in communion with Rome longer than the United States has been an independent republic) people are confused.

It is sad.

But I am sorry my post came off the way it did.

Michael

 

[LilyM]

Yes I realize that, it is obvious the person is young, but that’s not exactly the point and I am sorry my post came off as an attack on him. It was really a commentary. The whole thing saddens me. Why?

This question could have come from anyone. There might be millions who would have the same questions.

The fact that the OP knows enough to question the licity means he has been reading up and exposed to this kind of question before (probably right here at CAF), the fact that others on this thread were also willing to entertain the possibility of it being illicit speaks volumes too!

Why would anyone, of any age, think that their bishop would do something so stupid? It staggers the imagination. What has happened to the church that the rank and file have so little confidence in both a parish priest (who trained for many years) and his bishop (appointed to his office by none other the the Pope)? People will question anything and everything, they really don’t believe in the hierarchy.

Has the church sunk so low? Where is the trust we sheep should have in the shepherd?

It is also saddening that so many know so little about the “eastern lung”. When I was confirmed many many years ago It was by a missionary bishop from Peru. That still happens routinely, and no one would think that it was illicit, but when the guy comes from sister church (that has been in communion with Rome longer than the United States has been an independent republic) people are confused.

It is sad.

But I am sorry my post came off the way it did.

Michael

In the circumstances of this particular Bishop, Tod Brown - who is the very same who (IIRC) told people who knelt for the Consecration that they were in mortal sin for contravening his instructions to the contrary or some such ridiculous thing, the very same who has refused communion to people who kneel in defiance of explicit instruction from Rome that he cannot - he’s shown himself capable of just about anything, sadly.

 

[Allyson]

The fact that the OP knows enough to question the licity means he has been reading up and exposed to this kind of question before (probably right here at CAF), the fact that others on this thread were also willing to entertain the possibility of it being illicit speaks volumes too!

Michael

Hello Michael,

I believe that the OP only asks about validity. Other subsequent posters bring up licity.

That said, I found your initial point about the distinction between validity and licity to be very interesting and enlightening.

God Bless,
Rosemary

 

[twf]

Michael: In all fairness, the “Eastern lung” is numerically very smal (compared to the Latin Church). It is difficult to expose everyone to it.0

.

 

[ByzCath_Deacon]

His Grace Nicholas Samra is a retired Bishop of the Church of Antioch, the Melkite Greek Catholic Church.

I have been privileged to meet His Grace Bishop Nicholas, a dynamic and approchable hierarach, and I’m quite sorry that he’s past retirement age. The church as a whole needs at least 1000 bishops like him!

Actually he’s not past retirement age, his birthdate is listed as August 15, 1944… well under 75.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

I did some reading on this forum and it’s starting to seem like he’s Eastern Catholic. He said that they celebrated Mass differently, but apparently Eastern Catholics do celebrate the Mass differently than Roman Catholics.

No, that was the only part of the Mass that the priest said. The rest of it the bishop read out of the book, it was apparent that he wasn’t totally familiar with Roman Mass.

I’ll see if I can find out what his name was.

Their is nothing suspect about the priest taking that prayer when the bishop is there. The deacons do it for the priest at most Masses I go to, doesn’t mean the priest is not in communion with Rome.

Honestly, it is a curious thing to me that an Eastern Catholic bishop would be brought in for such a matter, when a bishop would be perfectly able to give a priest permissions to do it and it would be just as valid…

Still, it is nice of the Bishop Nicholas (if that is who we established this mystery Easterner is!) is helping out in this way.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

This question could have come from anyone. There might be millions who would have the same questions.

Easily their could be. In turn, how many Greek Catholics do we know that have had all that much exposure to non-Byzantine Eastern Catholics?

T

he fact that the OP knows enough to question the licity means he has been reading up and exposed to this kind of question before (probably right here at CAF), the fact that others on this thread were also willing to entertain the possibility of it being illicit speaks volumes too!

But what does it speak to in your mind? What is your conjecture for its meaning and what you can take from these questions?

Why would anyone, of any age, think that their bishop would do something so stupid? It staggers the imagination. What has happened to the church that the rank and file have so little confidence in both a parish priest (who trained for many years) and his bishop (appointed to his office by none other the the Pope)? People will question anything and everything, they really don’t believe in the hierarchy.

I am sorry this is entirely too big a leap of faith for me to take with you in your extrapolation of meanings from the question of a young person with little or no previous exposure to Eastern Catholicism may naturally want to get answers to his questions. I was the same way. At some point, you yourself questioned the received traditions you were given and opted to leave our communion.

Questioning happens. It is nice to have a place where someone can get some Catholic answers!

Has the church sunk so low? Where is the trust we sheep should have in the shepherd?

Again, it is a leap to think that from questions these questions that there is no faith in the shepherds. There is a great deal of work that needs to be done - no doubt about it - but I am not yet ready to take an *“o tempora! o mores!” *stance on the fact that people have questions.

It is also saddening that so many know so little about the “eastern lung”. When I was confirmed many many years ago It was by a missionary bishop from Peru. That still happens routinely, and no one would think that it was illicit, but when the guy comes from sister church (that has been in communion with Rome longer than the United States has been an independent republic) people are confused.

Again, I am left to wonder how many Greek Catholics would know what to make of a Chaldean or Ethiopian priest or bishop showing up. They are likely to be better aware of the fact that just as they are different from the Romans, there are others different from both them and the Romans. That is a function of experience… A whole world of Latins west of the Mississip and south of the Mason Dixon are as likely to go a lifetime never meeting us.

I don’t rail in frustration against their ignorance of us… the fact that our very, very small subset of Churches don’t get a week of CCD instruction isn’t going to keep me up at night - I am sympathetic to the fact that they have bigger fish to fry in passing on basics to kids they have a limited amount of time with. In turn, how much time and energy is spent among the Orthodox getting to know the particulars and peculiarities of different rescensions and ethnic traditions in each other’s churches. I know of several Greeks who have never stepped foot inside a non-Greek Orthodox Church.

When they do come, we greet them. When they ask questions, we answer them. When we have opportunities we help to make other people aware. The number of Greek Catholic grandkids (and Orthodox grandkids for that matter) who seldom or never go to granny’s church is not negligable. Among my family members, most all of my cousins have NEVER ONCE been to our grandmother’s parish. First and foremost I want them to have a Catholic life blessed with the rich graces of the sacraments. When the time or opportunity comes, I am happy for them to attend with me. … In the mean time my hands are full convincing one of my cousins to get her marriage convalidated and another that NO, going to a Lutheran church with her Methodist boyfriend is NOT a happy half-way comprimise to “meet him in the middle”. When we get that right, she can come hum along to Old Slavonic at our parish.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Their is nothing suspect about the priest taking that prayer when the bishop is there. The deacons do it for the priest at most Masses I go to, doesn’t mean the priest is not in communion with Rome.

Honestly, it is a curious thing to me that an Eastern Catholic bishop would be brought in for such a matter, when a bishop would be perfectly able to give a priest permissions to do it and it would be just as valid…

Still, it is nice of the Bishop Nicholas (if that is who we established this mystery Easterner is!) is helping out in this way.

Yes, it was Bishop Nicholas (as I mentioned earlier, he was at my Latin parish earlier the same day). The part that was read “from the book” was the specific part for Confirmation and, having served as a Master of Ceremonies for confirmations, I can assure you that all bishops read this part because they don’t do it often enough to have it memorized. And, yes, the sometimes stumble the first couple of times this is done.

At the parish the OP mentions Bishop Nicholas was doing his third ever confirmation (he had done one in Detroit and then one at my Latin parish earlier) so it’s natural that he might have not been as familiar.

And while it’s certainly true that Bishop Brown could have delegated a priest to do the confirmations he wanted to a) have a bishop do it and, b) expose part of his diocese to an Eastern bishop. He and Bishop Nicholas served on the same Bishop’s committee on ecumenism so they know each other well.

Deacon Ed

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Hmmmm he may have been Eastern Catholic. I remember the term he used was “eastern.” He wore a crown instead of a miter and had bells on his vestments, if that helps. And he mentioned that his tradition came from the Church of Antioch. I also noticed that he had our parish priest say the part of the Mass: “Lord, remember your church, etc… together with John Paul our Pope…” which indicated to me that maybe he wasn;t willing to say it? Maybe i was just being over scrupulous.

So what’s the difference between an Eastern Catholic and a Roman Catholic? It didn’t come across like he answered to Rome.

I can’t remember his name, sorry. I think it might have been Nicholas…

Eastern Catholics technically don’t “answer to Rome”, they answer to their Patriarch or their Major Archbishop who is in communion with Rome. I seriously doubt that an Eastern Orthodox Bishop would confirm Roman Catholics unless they were joining his church because their ecclesiology is different from ours. They are schismatic, while the Eastern Catholics are not and are 100% Catholic. I think that’s awesome that you, as a Roman Catholic, were confirmed in your Rite by an Eastern Catholic bishop! By his tradition being from the Church of Antioch, and his being an Eastern Catholic, he is probably a Maronite (Lebanese) Catholic or a Melkite. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maronite

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melkite

 

[bpbasilphx]

By his traditino being from the Church of Antioch, and his being an Eastern Catholic, he is probably a Maronite (Lebanese) Catholic.

There are several churches in the Antiochian tradition. I think we’ve determined that this was a MELKITE Bishop.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Why would anyone, of any age, think that their bishop would do something so stupid? It staggers the imagination. What has happened to the church that the rank and file have so little confidence in both a parish priest (who trained for many years) and his bishop (appointed to his office by none other the the Pope)? People will question anything and everything, they really don’t believe in the hierarchy.

Has the church sunk so low? Where is the trust we sheep should have in the shepherd?

Is it wrong to question “anything and everything”? The fact is, the hierarch, while a divine institution, is not incapable of err, which is why we have a Papacy. Orthodox bishops have done horrible things in the past (i.e. submitting to Communism) and so have Catholic hierarchs.

 

[rpp]

I agree with the posters above… this is almost certainly an Eastern Catholic bishop.

The Catholic Church is actually comprised of 23 individual Catholic Churches, all with their own traditions, liturgies, and regulations, and all in complete union with Rome. The Latin branch is so overwhelmingly large, however, that even most Catholics don’t know that these other branches exist. They include:

The Western (Latin) Liturgical Tradition:

1. The Latin Catholic Church
   **
   The Alexandrian Liturgical Tradition:**
2. The Coptic Catholic Church (patriarchate) - Egypt (1741)
3. The Ethiopian Catholic Church (metropolia) - Ethiopia, Eritrea (1846)
   **
   The Antiochian (Antiochene or West-Syrian) Liturgical Tradition:**
4. Maronite Church (patriarchate) - Lebanon, Cyprus, Jordan, Israel, Palestine, Egypt, Syria, Argentina, Brazil, United States, Australia, Canada, Mexico (never separated, union re-affirmed 1182)
5. Syriac Catholic Church (patriarchate) - Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Palestine, Egypt, Sudan, Syria, Turkey, United States and Canada, Venezuela (1781)
6. Syro-Malankara Catholic Church (major archiepiscopate) - India, United States (1930)

The Armenian Liturgical Tradition:
7) Armenian Catholic Church (patriarchate) - Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, Jordan, Palestine, Ukraine, France, Greece, Latin America, Argentina, Romania, United States, Canada, Eastern Europe (1742)

The Chaldean or East Syrian liturgical tradition:
8) Chaldean Catholic Church (patriarchate) - Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, United States (1692)
9) Syro-Malabar Church (major archiepiscopate) - India, United **States (at latest, 1599)

The Byzantine (Constantinopolitan) liturgical tradition:**
10) Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church (apostolic administration - Albania (1628)
11) Belarusian Greek Catholic Church (no established hierarchy at present) - Belarus (1596)
12) Bulgarian Greek Catholic Church (apostolic exarchate) - Bulgaria (1861)
13) Byzantine Church of the Eparchy of Križevci (an eparchy and an apostolic exarchate) - Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro (1611)
14) Greek Byzantine Catholic Church (two apostolic exarchates) - Greece, Turkey (1829)
15) Hungarian Greek Catholic Church (an eparchy and an apostolic exarchate) - Hungary (1646)
16) Italo-Albanian Catholic Church (two eparchies and a territorial abbacy) - Italy (Never separated)
17) Macedonian Greek Catholic Church (an apostolic exarchate) - Republic of Macedonia (1918)
18) Melkite Greek Catholic Church (patriarchate) - Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Israel, Jerusalem, Brazil, United States, Canada, Mexico, Iraq, Egypt and Sudan, Kuwait, Australia, Venezuela, Argentina (1726)
19) Romanian Church United with Rome, Greek-Catholic (major archiepiscopate) - Romania, United States (1697)
20) Russian Byzantine Catholic Church: (two apostolic exarchates, at present with no published hierarchs) - Russia, China (1905); currently about 20 parishes and communities scattered around the world, including five in Russia itself, answering to bishops of other jurisdictions
21) Ruthenian Catholic Church (a sui juris metropolia, an eparchy, and an apostolic exarchate) - United States, Ukraine, Czech Republic (1646)
22) Slovak Greek Catholic Church (metropolia): Slovak Republic, Canada (1646)
23) Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (major archiepiscopate) - Ukraine, Poland, United States, Canada, Great Britain, Australia, Germany and Scandinavia, France, Brazil, Argentina (1595)

Virtually all of the “Eastern” Catholic Churches are groups from the various Orthodox Churches which have since reunified (with the exception of the Maronites and the Italo-Albanians, which have always been in union).

Rolltide, this is AWESOME!!!

Thank you so very much!!! :clapping:

I am printing this out and keeping it.

Where did you get this from?

 

[OnlyAmbrose]

In the circumstances of this particular Bishop, Tod Brown - who is the very same who (IIRC) told people who knelt for the Consecration that they were in mortal sin for contravening his instructions to the contrary or some such ridiculous thing, the very same who has refused communion to people who kneel in defiance of explicit instruction from Rome that he cannot - he’s shown himself capable of just about anything, sadly.

Yes it was indeed Bishop Nicholas, and thank you all for the information Learning new stuff every day, and to a certain degree what Hesychios is saying is absolutely true. In my experience of Catholics in this particular area of the country, I know roughly as much if not more than a lot of adults. And it is sad, because if I didn’t know there was such a thing as Eastern Catholicism, I know a lot of other people who don’t. My parents didn’t for instance.

That being said, as to why I was “questioning” the church hierarchy, I agree that it is very sad that i would, but I’ve been brought up with a certain lack of trust in the church hierarchy. My parents are vocally critical of Cardinal Mahoney (and with a fair amount of justice IMO), the priest abuse scandal has gotten a good amount of media attention in SoCal, and I have seen little to no defense of the actions of several bishops in regards to harboring priests, etc.

Now, THAT being said, I still do and always will remain loyal to the Catholic Church, and I’m always willing to learn more about it

 

[Dan-Man916]

I also noticed that he had our parish priest say the part of the Mass: “Lord, remember your church, etc… together with John Paul our Pope…” which indicated to me that maybe he wasn;t willing to say it? Maybe i was just being over scrupulous.

Whenever there is a Mass in which there is more than one priest, it is customary for the presider to say the first part of the eucharistic canon, and the concelebrating priest to say the part that you mentioned.

That being said, I do not know if this custom is different when a Bishop presides.

I seem to remember that when our Bishop installed our new pastor a couple of years ago, the Bishop said the whole eucharistic prayer. So while there is a custom, I don’t think it is a hard rule, but is probably optional.

 

[Pani_Rose]

Hmmmm he may have been Eastern Catholic. I remember the term he used was “eastern.” He wore a crown instead of a miter and had bells on his vestments, if that helps. And he mentioned that his tradition came from the Church of Antioch. I also noticed that he had our parish priest say the part of the Mass: “Lord, remember your church, etc… together with John Paul our Pope…” which indicated to me that maybe he wasn;t willing to say it? Maybe i was just being over scrupulous.

So what’s the difference between an Eastern Catholic and a Roman Catholic? It didn’t come across like he answered to Rome.

I can’t remember his name, sorry.** I think it might have been Nicholas…**.

That is what I thought, it was Bishop Nicholas Samra. He is a retired Melkite Bishop. The Melkite Greek Catholics are from the Church of Antioch - the Catholic counterpart to the Antiochean Orthodox.

It is just fine!

He is an awesome bishop and works among the Eastern Catholic and Roman Catholic pahishes and diocese. He is a very good retreat master. We were blessed to have him help at our parish for Holy Week, so we were able to have the foot washing along with all the wonderful services of Holy Thursday.

 

[Peter_J]

Yes it was indeed Bishop Nicholas, and thank you all for the information Learning new stuff every day, and to a certain degree what Hesychios is saying is absolutely true. In my experience of Catholics in this particular area of the country, I know roughly as much if not more than a lot of adults. And it is sad, because if I didn’t know there was such a thing as Eastern Catholicism, I know a lot of other people who don’t. My parents didn’t for instance.

That being said, as to why I was “questioning” the church hierarchy, I agree that it is very sad that i would, but I’ve been brought up with a certain lack of trust in the church hierarchy. My parents are vocally critical of Cardinal Mahoney (and with a fair amount of justice IMO), the priest abuse scandal has gotten a good amount of media attention in SoCal, and I have seen little to no defense of the actions of several bishops in regards to harboring priests, etc.

Now, THAT being said, I still do and always will remain loyal to the Catholic Church, and I’m always willing to learn more about it

OnlyAmbrose,

I think it’s quite understandable that you weren’t aware of Eastern Catholicism, or of the fact that no Orthodox bishop would be liberal enough to do such a thing. Seems to me that some of criticism on those two score have been a little unfair to you.

What blew me away was when – after saying that an Orthodox bishop was confirming Roman Catholics – you added that your biggest complaint was that he “overtly stated that he disagreed with the practice of doing Confirmation separate from baptism.” You’re kind of getting the cart before the horse there, don’t you think?

Blessings,
Peter.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

What blew me away was when – after saying that an Orthodox bishop was confirming Roman Catholics – you added that your biggest complaint was that he “overtly stated that he disagreed with the practice of doing Confirmation separate from baptism.” You’re kind of getting the cart before the horse there, don’t you think?

How so? How did the cart get before the hourse on that one?

Why did this blow you away?

 

[puzzleannie]

Hi everyone,

I’m a Roman Catholic, I had an interesting experience tonight. I went to Mass at a small parish I volunteer at, and it was a Confirmation Mass. My bishop, Todd Brown, apparently couldn’t make it, so he asked his friend, an Eastern Orthodox bishop, to say Mass and administer the sacrament of Confirmation.

I ."

I don’t think this is true, I think it was an Eastern Rite Catholic Bishop.

 

[OnlyAmbrose]

What blew me away was when – after saying that an Orthodox bishop was confirming Roman Catholics – you added that your biggest complaint was that he “overtly stated that he disagreed with the practice of doing Confirmation separate from baptism.” You’re kind of getting the cart before the horse there, don’t you think?

Blessings,
Peter.

Well, I’m not sure what you mean. I thought it was inappropriate of him. I still kinda do. I mean, he was administering the sacrament to a bunch of teenagers and meanwhile he was saying about how he thought we don’t do it right? That’s what was going through my mind at the time.

 

[Cobbfmly]

Hi everyone,

I’m a Roman Catholic, I had an interesting experience tonight. I went to Mass at a small parish I volunteer at, and it was a Confirmation Mass. My bishop, Todd Brown, apparently couldn’t make it, so he asked his friend, an Eastern Orthodox bishop, to say Mass and administer the sacrament of Confirmation.

I couldn’t help but wonder if this Confirmation was valid. The Mass was said in the typical Roman way, and Confirmation went like normal, but… the bishop wasn’t Roman Catholic!

I was just curious if this is ok. The bishop was certainly a smart man and had a good sense of humor. My only real complaint is that he was giving confirmation to Roman Catholics even though he overtly stated that he disagreed with the practice of doing Confirmation separate from baptism. I think the phrase he used was “In the eastern Church, we don’t believe that you can give God in pieces, so we do Baptism, Confirmation, and the Eucharist all at the same time.”

I suspect it was Bishop Gerald N. Dino of the Eparchy of Van Nuys. He is a Byzantine Catholic Bishop appointed by Pope Benedict XVI on December 6, 2007. I suspect this as Bishop Todd Brown is the Bishop for the Diocese of Orange, California , making the “seat” of the Diocese and the “seat” of the Eparchy on about 50 miles apart.

The other possibility is Bishop Robert Joseph Shaheen of theEparchy of Our Lady of Lebanon of Los Angeles. He is Maronite Catholic Bishop appointed by Pope John Paul II on December 5, 2000.