So do angels put you in Hell or do you yourself?

[casabolg]

Matthew 13 seems to say that angels put you in Hell. Reading Mere Christianity, it seems like you put yourself in Hell.

This is not to say the person did it themselves by sinning but whether the actual going to Hell is result of the actions of angels or the individuals. I would say that Hell is viewed as a punishment implies that there is an offense recognized by the one doing it that needs to be penalized, which would not represent the individual at all.

 

[thinkandmull]

Jesus says angels. C S Lewis is not Jesus, however he may be referring to God. God casts people into hell by His good, but maybe not be a decision-power. We had this discussion before on CA forum and someone quoted the Catechism on how God does not directly punish in the afterlife, but allows the punishments to take place.

Does anyone have the paragraph? I bet they do over on the Apologetics subforum

 

[AKDee]

It may be both.

As in, we choose hell. (therefore, we place ourselves there of our own free will through our rejection of God)

But Angels escort us to hell.

Sort of like a criminal chooses a life of crime, and thus places himself jail…but a judge sentences him and guards escort him to jail.

 

[ChibiViolet]

As in, we choose hell. (therefore, we place ourselves there of our own free will through our rejection of God)

But Angels escort us to hell.

Sort of like a criminal chooses a life of crime, and thus places himself jail…but a judge sentences him and guards escort him to jail.

This is correct. Jesus said angels bring us there when we die if we deserve it. It’s here we get to make a choice.

 

[mikekle]

This is correct. Jesus said angels bring us there when we die if we deserve it. It’s here we get to make a choice.

Im not trying to bring up an old debate, but what if that person, right upon death, suddenly realizes the errors of their ways while alive, they now see the big picture and are truly sorry for it…since they are dead, they cannot call out to God for forgiveness at that moment? I realize many on here say NO to this, but I disagree, if this were true, we would loose our free at death, free will is a ‘gift’ from God, it is given to the soul of a person, once they are created, It is said God does not take away things from people, angels, or anyone. He surely didnt take anything away from Satan, he still has all his angelic powers and abilities, (some would argue he even gained some, but thats another thread), still has his free will.

I believe a soul can call out to God at anytime and ask to be forgiven, God knows if we are sincere or not.

 

[AKDee]

Personally I think that if, at the moment of death, a person realized the error of their ways and repented and called on God for mercy- even if they could not speak and it was just a split second of a thought as the lights went out in their brain, I think God would have mercy.

For that matter, I’m not so sure that there’s not a method in place for other people- us who are living- to keep people out of hell. St. Paul mentions one spouse bringing a non-believing spouse to salvation, and I’m not sure that he means through conversion. More to the point, Our Lady of Fatima said that a lot of people go to hell because they have no one here on earth willing to do penance and pray for them. Perhaps she meant by doing penance and praying while they were alive, rather than after they were dead, I don’t know. The grey area gives me hope that perhaps if I pray and do penance for non-believers…even those who have died…that it may somehow help.

 

[mikekle]

Personally I think that if, at the moment of death, a person realized the error of their ways and repented and called on God for mercy- even if they could not speak and it was just a split second of a thought as the lights went out in their brain, I think God would have mercy.

For that matter, I’m not so sure that there’s not a method in place for other people- us who are living- to keep people out of hell. St. Paul mentions one spouse bringing a non-believing spouse to salvation, and I’m not sure that he means through conversion. More to the point, Our Lady of Fatima said that a lot of people go to hell because they have no one here on earth willing to do penance and pray for them. Perhaps she meant by doing penance and praying while they were alive, rather than after they were dead, I don’t know. The grey area gives me hope that perhaps if I pray and do penance for non-believers…even those who have died…that it may somehow help.

Yes, you may be on to something, we have to remember God does not experience time in the way we do, he sees everything kind of happening at once, so a person could go thru their entire life, if they are even remotely connected to religion at any time during their lives, its likely they had at least a few people praying for them at some point, maybe all these prayers, no matter when they were made, go into a kind of ‘trust fund’ to be used at a later date (by us?).

They may or may not have benefited us at that particular time they were said, but since we are all immortal by nature, its quite logical, all prayers go somewhere, benefit something/ someone, ‘when’ is a moot point in Gods eyes, there is no when really.

 

[Vico]

Personally I think that if, at the moment of death, a person realized the error of their ways and repented and called on God for mercy- even if they could not speak and it was just a split second of a thought as the lights went out in their brain, I think God would have mercy.

For that matter, I’m not so sure that there’s not a method in place for other people- us who are living- to keep people out of hell. St. Paul mentions one spouse bringing a non-believing spouse to salvation, and I’m not sure that he means through conversion. More to the point, Our Lady of Fatima said that a lot of people go to hell because they have no one here on earth willing to do penance and pray for them. Perhaps she meant by doing penance and praying while they were alive, rather than after they were dead, I don’t know. The grey area gives me hope that perhaps if I pray and do penance for non-believers…even those who have died…that it may somehow help.

Since we do not know their state after death our prayers may help. The faithfully departed may be in purgatory state where our intercessions help.

But, those damned cannot merit, per Vatican I, Chapter 3, On Faith:Since, then, without faith it is impossible to please God 21 and reach the fellowship of his sons and daughters, it follows that no one can ever achieve justification without it, neither can anyone attain eternal life unless he or she perseveres in it to the end.

21 Heb 11, 6.

intratext.com/IXT/ENG0063/_P7.HTM#DM

Also St. Cyprian (Bishop of Carthage, 249-258 A.D.) writes in Ad Demetrianum 25:If one is departed from thence, then there is no longer any possibility of penance, and expiation has no effect. It is here below that life is either lost or won.

 

[Mike_Dye]

People are in Hell because that is what they choose. I have always said that there are no gates on Hell. As hard as it is to believe people choose hell because that is where they want to be.

 

[thinkandmull]

“Our Lady of Fatima said that a lot of people go to hell because they have no one here on earth willing to do penance and pray for them.”

So one cannot believe in Fatima and modern Molinism at the same time I suppose

 

[AKDee]

So one cannot believe in Fatima and modern Molinism at the same time I suppose

Why not? People are always so willing to assume something that wasn’t said. Such as, perhaps, that the person being prayed for would have to want and accept those prayers. Thus, free will. I fully believe that hell is a choice we make. It doesn’t mean I won’t still pray for those who have died and hope for a positive effect.

As an example- we can pray all the time for someone we love to convert, but unless their heart is willing to listen to the call of the Holy Spirit, God isn’t going to force them to convert because it would oppose the free will of the person. On the other hand, if they are willing to listen to the Spirit, then our prayers would possibly assist in their conversion. Yes?

 

[thinkandmull]

You said in your previous post "“Our Lady of Fatima said that a lot of people** go to hell ***because *they have no one here on earth willing to do penance and pray for them”

I am more of the belief that God does everything to bring each person to heaven, and that you can’t in any way blame the lack of prayers for someone going to hell

 

[AKDee]

You said in your previous post "“Our Lady of Fatima said that a lot of people** go to hell ***because *they have no one here on earth willing to do penance and pray for them”

I am more of the belief that God does everything to bring each person to heaven, and that you can’t in any way blame the lack of prayers for someone going to hell

That’s fine. There is no requirement for you to believe in any of the approved Marian apparitions or in any of the messages. They are approved for those who wish to believe in them, but it’s fine for you not to believe them.

 

[Vico]

“Our Lady of Fatima said that a lot of people go to hell because they have no one here on earth willing to do penance and pray for them.”

So one cannot believe in Fatima and modern Molinism at the same time I suppose

Those that are alive and those in purgatory are the only ones that could benefit from our prayer and penance for them. Those in hell are not helped. To prevent souls from going to Hell requires intervention while they are alive.

 

[mikekle]

Those that are alive and those in purgatory are the only ones that could benefit from our prayer and penance for them. Those in hell are not helped. To prevent souls from going to Hell requires intervention while they are alive.

So, we loose our free will at death? This also implies God grace, forgiveness are only temporary options for us.

 

[AKDee]

So, we loose our free will at death? This also implies God grace, forgiveness are only temporary options for us.

The way I’ve heard it explained is that after death we are outside of time, and we don’t change our minds after time ceases. So if we’ve rejected God, we will continue to reject God for eternity.

 

[thinkandmull]

Those that are alive and those in purgatory are the only ones that could benefit from our prayer and penance for them. Those in hell are not helped. To prevent souls from going to Hell requires intervention while they are alive.

I don’t believe people could have been saved had someone else done more. There use to be an ultra traditionalist blog that thought Fatima was a fraud. Its down now and I never got a chance to read his whole thesis.

 

[Vico]

I don’t believe people could have been saved had someone else done more. There use to be an ultra traditionalist blog that thought Fatima was a fraud. Its down now and I never got a chance to read his whole thesis.

Pope Paul VI write in Apostolic Constitution On Penance, 1966:Christ, in fact, is the supreme model for those doing penance. He willed to suffer punishment for sins which were not His but those of others.35
35. Cf. St. Thomas, Summa Theol., III, q. XV, a. 1, ad. 5. (Reply to Objection 5. A penitent can give a praiseworthy example, not by having sinned, but by freely bearing the punishment of sin. And hence Christ set the highest example to penitents, since He willingly bore the punishment, not of His own sin, but of the sins of others. )
We do read in the DIRECTORY FOR THE APPLICATION OF PRINCIPLES AND NORMS ON ECUMENISM:25. Because ecumenism with all its human and moral requirements is rooted so profoundly in the mysterious working out of the providence of the Father, through the Son and in the Spirit, it reaches into the depths of Christian spirituality. It calls for that “change of heart and holiness of life, along with public and private prayer for the unity of Christians”, that the Decree on Ecumenism of the Second Vatican Council calls “spiritual ecumenism”, and regards as “the soul of the ecumenical movement”.43 Those who identify deeply with Christ must identify with his prayer, and especially with his prayer for unity; those who live in the Spirit must let themselves be transformed by the love that, for the sake of unity, “bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things”; 44 those whose lives are marked by repentance will be especially sensitive to the sinfulness of divisions and will pray for forgiveness and conversion. Those who seek holiness will be able to recognize its fruits also outside the visible boundaries of their own Church.45

They will be led to know, truly, God as the one who alone is able to gather all into unity because he is the Father of all.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_25031993_principles-and-norms-on-ecumenism_en.html

 

[thinkandmull]

Intercession is real, but if nobody intercedes, God will step in. Fatima is saying that God might not step in, and sometimes doesn’t, to the damnation of people. I don’t think that’s correct

 

[Vico]

Intercession is real, but if nobody intercedes, God will step in. Fatima is saying that God might not step in, and sometimes doesn’t, to the damnation of people. I don’t think that’s correct

So you know that some people are not baptized and have not lived holy lives and that God always makes the first move by giving actual graces, yet even so, people may be condemned. Then the fact is that are we the faithful images of Christ are instrumental in providing actual graces; we are servants of God. We know that we are instruments because Christ told us to teach and pray and to live according to the truth, and we should not be negligent for souls may be lost. Pope Paul VI emphasized our action as images of Christ with what he said, posted before from Apostolic Constitution On Penance, 1966: “Christ, in fact, is the supreme model for those doing penance”.