So do angels put you in Hell or do you yourself?

[thinkandmull]

My point is that God uses us as instruments for His glory and ours. But if we fail, God will step in, because every measure is taken to get people to Heaven. That’s what I believe. The Fatima message is different

 

[Vico]

My point is that God uses us as instruments for His glory and ours. But if we fail, God will step in, because every measure is taken to get people to Heaven. That’s what I believe. The Fatima message is different

How do you reconcile that with this from the CDF?:1. Jesus Christ was sent by the Father to proclaim the Gospel, calling all people to conversion and faith (cf. Mk 1:14-15). After his resurrection, he entrusted the continuation of his mission of evangelization to the Apostles (cf. Mt 28:19-20; Mk 16:15; Lk 24:4-7; Acts 1:3): “As the Father has sent me, so I send you” (Jn 20:21, cf. 17:18). By means of the Church, Christ wants to be present in every historical epoch, every place on earth and every sector of society, in order to reach every person, so that there may be one flock and one shepherd (cf. Jn 10:16): “Go out into the whole world and preach the Gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mk 16:15-16).

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20071203_nota-evangelizzazione_en.html

Also, it is simply hope, for unbaptized infants, so we must continue to baptize all:The conclusion of this study is that there are theological and liturgical reasons to hope that infants who die without baptism may be saved and brought into eternal happiness, even if there is not an explicit teaching on this question found in Revelation. However, none of the considerations proposed in this text to motivate a new approach to the question may be used to negate the necessity of baptism, nor to delay the conferral of the sacrament. Rather, there are reasons to hope that God will save these infants precisely because it was not possible to do for them that what would have been most desirable— to baptize them in the faith of the Church and incorporate them visibly into the Body of Christ.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...aith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html

 

[Vico]

My point is that God uses us as instruments for His glory and ours. But if we fail, God will step in, because every measure is taken to get people to Heaven. That’s what I believe. The Fatima message is different

Additionally, in the funeral Mass there is prayer for the dead, after the fact, but directed “to the moment when the soul is about to leave the body”:
“… how can the Church pray in the Offertory of the Mass for the dead: “Libera animas omnium fidelium defunctorum de poenis inferni et de profundo lacu” etc.? Many think the Church uses these words to designate purgatory. They can be explained more readily, however, if we take into consideration the peculiar spirit of the Church’s liturgy; sometimes she refers her prayers not to the time at which they are said, but to the time for which they are said. Thus the offertory in question is referred to the moment when the soul is about to leave the body, although it is actually said some time after that moment; and as if he were actually at the death-beds of the faithful, the priest implores God to preserve their souls from hell.”
Hontheim, J. (1910). Hell. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company.
newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm

 

[thinkandmull]

I didn’t say that we can’t pray for people, or that Limbo may not be real, but that I don’t believe people end up in Hell because certain options were not taken by God.

 

[Vico]

I didn’t say that we can’t pray for people, or that Limbo may not be real, but that I don’t believe people end up in Hell because certain options were not taken by God.

That does not really address that people may end up in hell because the faithful do not pray and do penance for them.

 

[thinkandmull]

Sure it does. ? If people refuse to pray, God will provide another option. Unless you are saying some people can only be saved by another human…

 

[Vico]

Sure it does. ? If people refuse to pray, God will provide another option. Unless you are saying some people can only be saved by another human…

There is nothing that states that God will provide unlimited chances. Both Ambrose and Augustine taught that God gives many no opportunity to escape Hell.

People can only be saved by the grace of God, including that God works through the angels and the faithful, and through just punishments, to bring people to repentance. Some people are not saved – and it is due to willful ignorance, passion, or malice. The faithful serve God, with teaching the gospel, giving witness to their faith, and praying, and doing penance for those that are not saved.

 

[thinkandmull]

I would have to see Ambrose on this, but I know Augustine did say that. Wait, not quite. He thought sinners were given grace, but it was infallibly certain they would reject it. I don’t think he was a Jansenist. This isn’t about unlimited chances. Its about a person being given all the chances his soul can have, and people not going to hell people other people didn’t pray hard enough

 

[Vico]

I would have to see Ambrose on this, but I know Augustine did say that. Wait, not quite. He thought sinners were given grace, but it was infallibly certain they would reject it. I don’t think he was a Jansenist. This isn’t about unlimited chances. Its about a person being given all the chances his soul can have, and people not going to hell people other people didn’t pray hard enough

Yes, there surely is not another way all the time.

Trying to stay focused on: “That does not really address that people may end up in hell because the faithful do not pray and do penance for them.”

We certainly do pray for the souls at their moment of death, after the fact, in the Mass for the dead. Also souls live, because we have had a part in it as spoken of in Ezekiel (esp. 3:20).

Ezekiel 3:17-2117 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman to the house of Israel: and thou shalt hear the word out of my mouth, and shalt tell it them from me.
18 If, when I say to the wicked, Thou shalt surely die: thou declare it not to him, nor speak to him, that he may be converted from his wicked way, and live: the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but I will require his blood at thy hand.
19 But if thou give warning to the wicked, and he be not converted from his wickedness, and from his evil way: he indeed shall die in his iniquity, but thou hast delivered thy soul.
20 Moreover, if the just man shall turn away from his justice, and shall commit iniquity: I will lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die, because thou hast not given him warning: he shall die in his sin, and his justices, which he hath done, shall not be remembered: but I will require his blood at thy hand.
21 But if thou warn the just man, that the just may not sin, and he doth not sin: living he shall live, because thou hast warned him, and thou hast delivered thy soul.
I was not thinking of the infant case:St. Augustine, Epistle to Jerome, Journel: 166:
Anyone who would say that even infants who pass from this life without participation in the Sacrament of Baptism shall be made alive in Christ goes counter to the preaching of the Apostle and condemns the whole Church, because it is believed without doubt that there is no other way at all in which they can be made alive in Christ.

St. Ambrose on merits: St. Ambrose, De Fide, Book V: 6.82:
Then, speaking of the Father, He added: For whom it has been prepared, to show that the Father also is not wont to give heed merely to requests, but to merits; for God is not a respecter of persons. (Acts of the Apostles 10:34) Wherefore also the Apostle says: Whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate. (Romans 8:29) He did not predestinate them before He knew them, but He did predestinated the reward of those whose merits He foreknew.

 

[thinkandmull]

You were the one who mentioned infants in post 22. Ambrose in that quote you just gave does not say what you are espousing

 

[thinkandmull]

I think in Ezekiel 3 God has great faith that His “Son of man” will do the right thing. If he fails, God could change his plan, as when God said he was going to destroy a city but then does not. Fatima however, as quoted earlier in this thread, says that there are people in Hell who could have been saved by others’ prayers.

I remember reading a Fr. Most article on Augustine in which Fr. Most said that God desperately wants everybody to be saved and does everything possible to save them. Augustine on the other hands seems at least to imply that it is a greater good for the majority of people to be damned. It is the height of nonsense to say it is better for people to be in the Hell then praising God. I know, I know, punishment seems to have objective value, but its still better if everyone loves God for eternity. To think otherwise is to be a knuckle head

 

[Trident_H]

Maybe someone can only be given the chance to save themselves as long as they are ignorant of the true state of affairs. Once they are dead the veil is lifted so their motivations can no longer be considered pure. Maybe that’s the catch. As long as we are doing it for the desire to be with God he is OK with giving us an infinite number of chances, but if after death the only motivation is self-preservation then God is like, “Nice try yucky person!” and just presses that trap door button that he had installed just for that very reason. You know, the one that leads to that really long slide to the bad place.

Sorry God, you know I’m just teasing you. Don’t press the button when I come for my appointment, k?

 

[Vico]

I think in Ezekiel 3 God has great faith that His “Son of man” will do the right thing. If he fails, God could change his plan, as when God said he was going to destroy a city but then does not. Fatima however, as quoted earlier in this thread, says that there are people in Hell who could have been saved by others’ prayers.

I remember reading a Fr. Most article on Augustine in which Fr. Most said that God desperately wants everybody to be saved and does everything possible to save them. Augustine on the other hands seems at least to imply that it is a greater good for the majority of people to be damned. It is the height of nonsense to say it is better for people to be in the Hell then praising God. I know, I know, punishment seems to have objective value, but its still better if everyone loves God for eternity. To think otherwise is to be a knuckle head

God does allow his children to go to Hell, when they choose not to repent and are culpable. There is a time after which this cannot be chosen. Therefore it is not unlimited, so it not “everything possible”. God’s will includes justice.

So does “everything possible to save them” exclude the penance and prayers of the faithful for others that have failed, which God has future knowledge of?

We are to be images of Christ and He is present in the people of the Church as well as in the sacraments.

 

[thinkandmull]

In answer to your question, it includes the penance and prayers of the faithful for others that have failed plus everything else possible. A heart only has so many chances by ITS nature. Thomas Aquinas says on predestination that God gives only so much grace to each, showing his mercy and justice in different degrees to each person. Each person is unique, and is treated thusly. That’s how I interpret Aquinas there. However, St. Faustina’s diary, which I have read, contradicts this with the words of Jesus to her. She says that God goes everywhere, kindly peeks around every corner of the soul, until the person either gives in to God or empties his heart of all goodness so that it is only in and for Hell.

 

[Vico]

In answer to your question, it includes the penance and prayers of the faithful for others that have failed plus everything else possible. A heart only has so many chances by ITS nature. Thomas Aquinas says on predestination that God gives only so much grace to each, showing his mercy and justice in different degrees to each person. Each person is unique, and is treated thusly. That’s how I interpret Aquinas there. However, St. Faustina’s diary, which I have read, contradicts this with the words of Jesus to her. She says that God goes everywhere, kindly peeks around every corner of the soul, until the person either gives in to God or empties his heart of all goodness so that it is only in and for Hell.

That does not seem to be a contradiction to me. That last point of either giving into God or empty heart is at the moment of death. We always pray “Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.”

How do we help souls by our prayer and penance? From Sirach 19 3 But to the penitent he provides a way back, he encourages those who are losing hope!3 [19-27] Exhorting the sinner to return to God (⇒ Sirach 17:19-21, ⇒ 24-26) the author implies that the Lord will postpone death for a repentant sinner so that he may fulfill his destiny of praising God on earth (⇒ Sirach 17:22-23). In the light of Christian teaching, the gift of final penitence extends this divine purpose into life everlasting. See note on ⇒ Psalm 6:6; cf also ⇒ Ezekiel 18:23; ⇒ 33:11-16.
The Catechism has:2635 Since Abraham, intercession - asking on behalf of another has been characteristic of a heart attuned to God’s mercy. In the age of the Church, Christian intercession participates in Christ’s, as an expression of the communion of saints. In intercession, he who prays looks “not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others,” even to the point of praying for those who do him harm.115

2636 The first Christian communities lived this form of fellowship intensely.116 Thus the Apostle Paul gives them a share in his ministry of preaching the Gospel117 but also intercedes for them.118 The intercession of Christians recognizes no boundaries: “for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions,” for persecutors, for the salvation of those who reject the Gospel.119
115 Phil 2:4; cf. Acts 7:60; Lk 23:28,34.
116 Cf. Acts 12:5; 20:36; 21:5; 2 Cor 9:14.
117 Cf. Eph 6:18-20; Col 4:3-4; 1 Thess 5:25.
118 Cf. 2 Thess 1:11; Col 1:3; Phil 1:3-4.
119 2 Tim 2:1; cf. Rom 12:14; 10:1.

 

[thinkandmull]

If St. Faustina is right about Jesus saying mercy is His greatest attribute, than it shouldn’t matter to God is someone else failed to pray for the sinner. God would act nonetheless. We can be instruments, but we are not necessary instruments. We are contingent

 

[Vico]

If St. Faustina is right about Jesus saying mercy is His greatest attribute, than it shouldn’t matter to God is someone else failed to pray for the sinner. God would act nonetheless. We can be instruments, but we are not necessary instruments. We are contingent

God provides the actual grace and the faithful (including angels) may provide merit to reduce temporal punishments. Since it is a grievous sin to despair, we have to believe that the actual grace of God will be provided, even if by miracle. Salvation is certainly accomplished only with willful election of the individual and is not supplied by the intercession of others. So it seems that I agree with you that there is no basis for the loss of souls because nobody did prayer or penance for them.

 

[thinkandmull]

AKDee said that Mary at Fatima said many people go to hell because they have no one here on earth willing to do penance and pray for them. Looking back at the post, I see he does not actually provide a quote and source. We should look it up though

 

[Vico]

AKDee said that Mary at Fatima said many people go to hell because they have no one here on earth willing to do penance and pray for them. Looking back at the post, I see he does not actually provide a quote and source. We should look it up though

Fatima - In August of 1917 Our Lady told the children, “pray much and make sacrifices for sinners, for many souls go to hell because there is no one to make sacrifices for them.” As to the kinds of sacrifices Our Lady was asking, she revealed to Sr. Lucia on one occasion: “The good Lord is allowing Himself to be appeased . . . but He Himself complains most bitterly and sorrowfully about the small number of souls in His grace who are willing to renounce whatever the observance of His laws requires of them.”
rosary-center.org/fatimams.htm

Lucia then asked about how the developing shrine at the Cova should be dealt with, and after the Blessed Virgin had explained what she wanted done, was told that some of the sick would be cured during the year. Our Lady, looking very sad, then said: “Pray, pray very much, and make sacrifices for sinners; for many souls go to hell, because there are none to sacrifice themselves and pray for them.” With that she rose into the air and moved towards the east before disappearing. The children then took the branch of the tree she had stood on home as a souvenir. This was perfumed with the most beautiful fragrance, and was a factor in persuading Lucia’s parents to begin to believe in the apparitions.

theotokos.org.uk/pages/articles/fatimaaugust.html St. Faustina Diary 1777 “My daughter, know that My Heart is mercy itself. From this sea of mercy, graces flow out upon the whole world. No soul that has approached Me has ever gone away unconsoled. All misery gets buried in the depths of My mercy, and every saving and sanctifying grace flows from this fountain…”“Pray as much as you can for the dying. By your entreaties [that is, insistent prayers] obtain for them trust in My mercy, because they have most need of trust, and have it the least. Be assured that the grace of eternal salvation for certain souls in their final moment depends on your prayer. You know the whole abyss of My mercy, so draw upon it for yourself and especially for poor sinners. Sooner would heaven and earth turn into nothingness than would My mercy not embrace a trusting soul”.

thedivinemercy.org/eadm/praying.php

 

[Vico]

…

The opinion of St. Thomas Aquinas is that once there is repentance, others prayers and works help.

• divine ordination - unaffected by prayers.
• effect of divine ordination - helped by prayers and works of others.

Now, the fine point, is if there is final repentance, yet only at the very last moment of life, that person is helped by others.

St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica I, Q23, A8 Can predestination be furthered by the prayers of the saints?I answer that, Concerning this question, there were different errors. Some, regarding the certainty of divine predestination, said that prayers were superfluous, as also anything else done to attain salvation; because whether these things were done or not, the predestined would attain, and the reprobate would not attain, eternal salvation. But against this opinion are all the warnings of Holy Scripture, exhorting us to prayer and other good works.

Others declared that the divine predestination was altered through prayer. This is stated to have the opinion of the Egyptians, who thought that the divine ordination, which they called fate, could be frustrated by certain sacrifices and prayers. Against this also is the authority of Scripture. For it is said: “But the triumpher in Israel will not spare and will not be moved to repentance” (1 Samuel 15:29); and that “the gifts and the calling of God are without repentance” (Romans 11:29).

Wherefore we must say otherwise that in predestination two things are to be considered–namely, the divine ordination; and its effect. As regards the former, in no possible way can predestination be furthered by the prayers of the saints. For it is not due to their prayers that anyone is predestined by God. As regards the latter, predestination is said to be helped by the prayers of the saints, and by other good works; because providence, of which predestination is a part, does not do away with secondary causes but so provides effects, that the order of secondary causes falls also under providence. So, as natural effects are provided by God in such a way that natural causes are directed to bring about those natural effects, without which those effects would not happen; so the salvation of a person is predestined by God in such a way, that whatever helps that person towards salvation falls under the order of predestination; whether it be one’s own prayers or those of another; or other good works, and such like, without which one would not attain to salvation. Whence, the predestined must strive after good works and prayer; because through these means predestination is most certainly fulfilled. For this reason it is said: “Labor more that by good works you may make sure your calling and election” (2 Peter 1:10).