So few conversions

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Mijoy2

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Relatively speaking.

I realize there have been historic mass conversions such as those that originated in Guadalupe. I am not refering to these. What I am refering to are individual conversions of people close to us and more spefically people we all know (celebrities).

We can possibly all think of a person or persons we know who converted to Christianity. But I think most would agree it is relatively few. In my life is is certainly relatively few. In fact almost non-existant when you compare the number of people I have had some relationship to throughout my life to how many of these people converted to a deep faith. At his moment only one comes to mind and i have been on God’s good earth for over 5 decades.

If we take celebrities, here to, the number is tiny. I can think of a few (I’ll try to leave out names here) that have had dramatic conversions. Presently I am thinking of a couple of old-time rock stars (are you “Wanderer” ing who I am talking about?). But how many famous celebrities who are well known atheists (or at least openly mock or laugh at Christian concepts – and maybe even did a documentary on it) convert?

Wouldn’t it be such a wonderful thing if God would work in these peoples lives to the degree they converted? Think of the most vile anti christian popular celebs that fill our television screens or radio broadcasts on a daily basis and have huge followings and imagine what a story it would be if one of these celebs had a dramaitc conversion. But it is virtually unheard of. It would take people by surprise and perhaps make people think more about thier own spirituality. Would it not?

I question why? Why does it seem Gods’ Grace is not penetrating virtually any of these people? Why are none of them (virtually speaking I realize there can be rare exceptions cited) touched by grace?

It simply doesn’t seem to happen.
 
Mijoy2 said:
Relatively speaking.

I realize there have been historic mass conversions such as those that originated in Guadalupe. I am not refering to these. What I am refering to are individual conversions of people close to us and more spefically people we all know (celebrities).

We can possibly all think of a person or persons we know who converted to Christianity. But I think most would agree it is relatively few. In my life is is certainly relatively few. In fact almost non-existant when you compare the number of people I have had some relationship to throughout my life to how many of these people converted to a deep faith. At his moment only one comes to mind and i have been on God’s good earth for over 5 decades.

If we take celebrities, here to, the number is tiny. I can think of a few (I’ll try to leave out names here) that have had dramatic conversions. Presently I am thinking of a couple of old-time rock stars (are you “Wanderer” ing who I am talking about?). But how many famous celebrities who are well known atheists (or at least openly mock or laugh at Christian concepts – and maybe even did a documentary on it) convert?

Wouldn’t it be such a wonderful thing if God would work in these peoples lives to the degree they converted? Think of the most vile anti christian popular celebs that fill our television screens or radio broadcasts on a daily basis and have huge followings and imagine what a story it would be if one of these celebs had a dramaitc conversion. But it is virtually unheard of. It would take people by surprise and perhaps make people think more about thier own spirituality. Would it not?

I question why? Why does it seem Gods’ Grace is not penetrating virtually any of these people? Why are none of them (virtually speaking I realize there can be rare exceptions cited) touched by grace?

It simply doesn’t seem to happen.
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Perhaps because there*** IS NO god***?
If there were, I would agree, that conversion of some famous person like Christopher Hichens, Bill Maher, or Richard Dawkins would make a lot of atheists and agnostics (like me) take notice…

However…I’d venture to say that the argument against THAT would be that it would be wasted on hardened hearts like mine, yes?
 
phoenixrrt62 said:
If there were, I would agree, that conversion of some famous person like Christopher Hichens, Bill Maher, or Richard Dawkins would make a lot of atheists and agnostics (like me) take notice…
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You’d take notice, but would it matter to you at all?

That is would the conversion of one or even all 3, of these men offer up any new evidence for the existence of God or would this simply be evidence that they too succumbed to “delusion”?

Is there something intellectually more acceptable if arguments for God come from a famous ex-atheist?

Chuck
 
phoenixrrt62 said:
Perhaps because there*** IS NO god***?
If there were, I would agree, that conversion of some famous person like Christopher Hichens, Bill Maher, or Richard Dawkins would make a lot of atheists and agnostics (like me) take notice…

However…I’d venture to say that the argument against THAT would be that it would be wasted on hardened hearts like mine, yes?
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No. Atheists and agnostics are products of an age that require empirical evidence. We as humans want to know as much as we always have. The methods we permit, however, have been greatly reduced, especially in more materialistic nations, like the US or UK. And there is not so much a “hardness of heart” in people but a hardness of mind. We want absolute proof and do not want to take anything on faith. Its a matter of changing culture.

There are times, honestly, when I question the existence of God, especially considering I came into Catholicism from atheism. I recognize this as a cultural phenomenon. The idea of “there is no god” is a product of cultural scientism – trusting science, which can ONLY measure the natural world, to tell us the existence or lack of existence in a SUPERnatural being. Since science cannot measure what is not physical in some way, shape, or form, it cannot find evidence for God, thus we are challenged to drop such “superstition.” Religion cannot successfully tell us the order of the physical, but it can tell us the order of the spiritual. Likewise, science cannot successfully tell us the order of the spiritual, but can tell us the order of the physical. Only the two taken together can fully reveal reality.

In short, we want evidence – hard, physical proof. And it is this attitude which invalidates religion and philosophy because the fruits of these are not physical. It is not a “hardness of heart,” but a set of blinders which we as a society voluntarily put on. God is waving frantically, just as He always has; we as a society are just not looking in His direction.
 
I have an involuntary reaction to Bill Mahar - he makes my skin crawl.
 
You’re right, it is “relatively speaking.” The perception of conversions is relative to one’s experience, one’s circle of friends, and where one is located.

In my experience, I know dozens of people (probably more) who have had profound conversions. The universities I attended had great Catholic communities that drew people in. There are many places out there like that.

For example, the Newman centers at Texas A&M and the University of Illinois both generally have 50-100 college students going through their RCIA program each year. I don’t think they would agree that there are “so few conversions.”

I’m not sure how you can say “It doesn’t seem to happen” when you list several examples yourself. Are they not significant enough?

We must look at the larger picture as well. Look at the conversion figures in places like Africa. The number of Catholics there has tripled in the last 30 years.

I think what you are observing are the difficulties inherent to our modern Western way of life. It is tough for us in the modern world to be open to the promptings of the Spirit and the grace of God. There are so many things vying for our attention and it is quite easily to let these voices prevent us from really pondering the important questions. All our modern conveniences and entertainment make it easy to remain comfortable where we are at.
 
Joe_5859 said:
You’re right, it is “relatively speaking.” The perception of conversions is relative to one’s experience, one’s circle of friends, and where one is located.

In my experience, I know dozens of people (probably more) who have had profound conversions. The universities I attended had great Catholic communities that drew people in. There are many places out there like that.

For example, the Newman centers at Texas A&M and the University of Illinois both generally have 50-100 college students going through their RCIA program each year. I don’t think they would agree that there are “so few conversions.”

.
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My parish gets about 20 converts/year, which is about a 5% annual increase in the parish numbers. We’re in the Bible Belt. I think we’re going to see a lot of “Bible Belt” area conversions in the next few decades.

As far as atheists/agnostics of some fame who converted to Catholicism or other Christian faiths, there have been a fair number. Check out en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_atheists_and_agnostics

When it comes to
 
Joe_5859 said:
You’re right, it is “relatively speaking.” The perception of conversions is relative to one’s experience, one’s circle of friends, and where one is located.

In my experience, I know dozens of people (probably more) who have had profound conversions. The universities I attended had great Catholic communities that drew people in. There are many places out there like that.

For example, the Newman centers at Texas A&M and the University of Illinois both generally have 50-100 college students going through their RCIA program each year. I don’t think they would agree that there are “so few conversions.”

I’m not sure how you can say “It doesn’t seem to happen” when you list several examples yourself. Are they not significant enough?

We must look at the larger picture as well. Look at the conversion figures in places like Africa. The number of Catholics there has tripled in the last 30 years.

I think what you are observing are the difficulties inherent to our modern Western way of life. It is tough for us in the modern world to be open to the promptings of the Spirit and the grace of God. There are so many things vying for our attention and it is quite easily to let these voices prevent us from really pondering the important questions. All our modern conveniences and entertainment make it easy to remain comfortable where we are at.
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I suppose you did word it more appropriate then I. Yes, I cannot speak to conversions (nor was I refering to conversions) that may be deemed, mass, in nature. I am perhaps refering, as you say, to our western society. However I still am interested in dialogue on this ground.

As far as the numbers of RCIA candidates at certain universities, as ourtstanding and wonderful as is this, I do not know that we can qualify them as true conversions directly proportional to thier numbers. This, I terribly unfortuantely, I can spek to from experience. I know of a number of individuals who went through RCIA classes to appease others and not because of any true conversion on thier part.
 
Ridgerunner said:
My parish gets about 20 converts/year, which is about a 5% annual increase in the parish numbers. We’re in the Bible Belt. I think we’re going to see a lot of “Bible Belt” area conversions in the next few decades.

As far as atheists/agnostics of some fame who converted to Catholicism or other Christian faiths, there have been a fair number. Check out en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_atheists_and_agnostics

When it comes to
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My parish gets 0,1 or 2, 2 is the most I have ever seen, I see 0 more often.

However based on what you are saying, maybe somethign positive is happening. perhaps all I can do is pray for the conversion of the extremely popular celebrities like some of those others have mentioned. It would be amazing.
 
Mijoy2 said:
Quite a list, thank you for posting it.
Let’s pray it grows, most especially with names of those who could most impact others.
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Two other notables would be Dr. Bernard Nathanson (co-founder of NARAL) and Norma McCorvey (“Roe” from Roe v. Wade). Both were firm proponents of abortion who have converted to Catholicism and are now great voices in the pro-life movement.

So don’t get too disheartened. The conversions are out there.

And, of course, ultimately the conversion we really need to be concerned with is our own. I know I need to remind myself of this as often as possible.
 
Mijoy2 said:
My parish gets 0,1 or 2, 2 is the most I have ever seen, I see 0 more often.

However based on what you are saying, maybe somethign positive is happening. perhaps all I can do is pray for the conversion of the extremely popular celebrities like some of those others have mentioned. It would be amazing.
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It probably varies a lot from place to place, and depends on a lot of things. My area was once very anti-Catholic, and some parts of it still are. However, as more and more fundamentalists and evangelicals (that’s what most of the converts are) get past the old prejudices and lies, and come to realize what Catholicism is, they often change their whole view.

The reasons why I think the future of U.S. conversions is likely to be in the Bible Belt are three: First, Flannery O’Connor, who knew southerners better than they knew themselves, predicted it. Second, the core of their current churches is a desire to “get close to Jesus”. You can’t get any closer in this life than the Eucharist. Third, a whole lot of them are quite serious about religion and have a fundamental belief in adapting themselves to religion, rather than adapting religion to themselves. That’s not true everywhere.
 
Barbkw said:
I have an involuntary reaction to Bill Mahar - he makes my skin crawl.
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Maher is very hard for me to watch. There’s something about him; almost like an odor, that’s off-putting. He seems incredibly angry, beyond reasonable anger; like he’s carrying something awful around on his shoulders that he can neither reconcile himself with nor get rid of. If I had to guess, I would guess that’s likely the case.
 
Well there are certainly more people leaving the church than those that have converted to it. I know many people that have left the church a few years after their confirmation.
 
bingbang said:
Well there are certainly more people leaving the church than those that have converted to it. I know many people that have left the church a few years after their confirmation.
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I’m not sure that’s strictly true. I know a lot of people leave, but I’ve recently seen (and will have to track it down) information that Catholic numbers are growing even if you subtract the infant baptisms. Which would mean more people join than leave.

I, too, assumed the flow was in the other direction before I read that. I will go looking and post it to the thread if I can.

Usagi
 
Usagi said:
I’m not sure that’s strictly true. I know a lot of people leave, but I’ve recently seen (and will have to track it down) information that Catholic numbers are growing even if you subtract the infant baptisms. Which would mean more people join than leave.

I, too, assumed the flow was in the other direction before I read that. I will go looking and post it to the thread if I can.

Usagi
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I’m not sure what to think about this. In my parish, some have left. Not many. The real “leavers” who join some protestant church are almost always men who, having traded their wives in for newer models, and find themselves at odds with the Church as a consequence.

I think it’s hard to know about some who simply disappear for no apparent reason. I have seen that, and have seen them come back. So I don’t know how many of those are permanent.
 
Mijoy2 said:
Relatively speaking.

I realize there have been historic mass conversions such as those that originated in Guadalupe. I am not refering to these. What I am refering to are individual conversions of people close to us and more spefically people we all know (celebrities).

We can possibly all think of a person or persons we know who converted to Christianity. But I think most would agree it is relatively few. In my life is is certainly relatively few. In fact almost non-existant when you compare the number of people I have had some relationship to throughout my life to how many of these people converted to a deep faith. At his moment only one comes to mind and i have been on God’s good earth for over 5 decades.

If we take celebrities, here to, the number is tiny. I can think of a few (I’ll try to leave out names here) that have had dramatic conversions. Presently I am thinking of a couple of old-time rock stars (are you “Wanderer” ing who I am talking about?). But how many famous celebrities who are well known atheists (or at least openly mock or laugh at Christian concepts – and maybe even did a documentary on it) convert?

Wouldn’t it be such a wonderful thing if God would work in these peoples lives to the degree they converted? Think of the most vile anti christian popular celebs that fill our television screens or radio broadcasts on a daily basis and have huge followings and imagine what a story it would be if one of these celebs had a dramaitc conversion. But it is virtually unheard of. It would take people by surprise and perhaps make people think more about thier own spirituality. Would it not?

I question why? Why does it seem Gods’ Grace is not penetrating virtually any of these people? Why are none of them (virtually speaking I realize there can be rare exceptions cited) touched by grace?

It simply doesn’t seem to happen.
Click to expand...
We’re probably about the same age - I’m 55 and a lifetime Catholic. We’ve seen the U.S. go from a wonderful place to live to a decadent society. We probably have too much wealth and other distractions. The media is probably the main reason for a decline in Faith and Values. I remember reading a book by a very traditional Catholic named Solange Hertz who said that modern man ridicules the Catholic Church and refers to the Scholastic Period as the “Dark Ages” while they see modern times as the “Enlightenment Period”. Solange Hertz said it’s just the opposite with TV running on electricity, a false light.

What will happen is that sin and vice will destroy America along with its wealth and then there will be mass conversions. We saw a tiny sample of this when 911 happened. For a couple of weeks the churches were full. A similiar thing happened in 1962 during the Cuban Missile Crisis.
 
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