So, how did the new translation go down at your parish?

  • Thread starter Thread starter YoungTradCath
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
The old translation was more to the common vernacular. “Slang” to use a very loose term. (Hence why it was “One in being” vs “consubstantial.” I had never heard of the word before this new translation. So I looked it up in the dictionary: “of the same substance” aka, one in being) They worked most of the “Spirit” stuff out and replaced it with “you” because people can relate to praying for, or God being with, themselves vs being with their spirit or soul and almost not caring about the human form. I’ve seen old bulletins from my parish form pre-Vatican 2 and it’s all about saving your soul, and very little about the human person that soul is part of. I for one feel that if I’m praying for myself or for “you” that I’m praying for your whole person, body, soul, spirit, all of it. The original Latin text goes back to an era when that’s all the Church taught: you must do this and this to save your soul or save your spirit!

My complaint about the new translation has nothing to do with it’s implication in my parish, but rather the translation itself. I fell it’s the Catholic Church taking another step backwards towards the pre-Vatican 2 Church. This might make my grandparents happy, but it’s distancing itself from my parents (who were in high school during V2) and completely alienating my generation (whom most of has never seen a real Latin mass before). The Church needs to realize it must move forward and appeal to my generation, or in 10, 15, 20 years when my grandparents generation has all passed on, there will be no one left in Churches. Why have I now “greatly sinned?” Why is it “through my fault x3?” Why is it my spirit and not my whole self? This is classic guilt and human conceived notions which drove much of my parents generation away in the 50’s (causing Vatican 2) and will continue to drive Catholics away today.

//end rant
I think that you are mixing up the spiritual part of yourself as a human being with the Holy Spirit. The brief dialogue can only be started only by an ordained person because of the ontological change. Saint John Chrysostom wrote “if the Holy Spirit were not in our Bishop when he gave the peace to all shortly before ascending to his holy sanctuary, you would not have replied to him all together, ‘And with your spirit.’”
 
God is usually characterised as male in Biblical sources, except: female in Genesis 1:26-27[5][6], Psalm 123:2-3, and Luke 15:8-10; a mother in Hosea 11:3-4, Deuteronomy 32:18, Isaiah 66:13, Isaiah 49:15, Isaiah 42:14, Psalm 131:2; a mother eagle in Deuteronomy 32:11-12; and a mother hen in Matthew 23:37 and Luke 13:34.

Thank you Wiki! Basically, God has no gender, so why MUST we refer to God as a he? Yes, Jesus referred to God as Abba, but he also referred to God as a mother hen. So which Jesus is right?
Which part of receiving a direct and specific instruction from Jesus don’t you understand?
 
God became man. That Man was divine. In His human nature, He was a man, and along with His divine nature (throught the hypostatic union), His Person was/is Divine, the second person of the Blessed Trinity.

Nevertheless, there are real, substantive theological reasons put forth for referring to God in the masculine, and I invite you to pose this question on one of the Theology threads.
 
And I apologize for going off on the God/he rant here. I know this probably isn’t the right thread for that, but that’s one of my pet peeves with Catholicism, and when I saw that post, it just pushed a button. I’ll admit I’m one of those who say God vs he (as does our Priest) as much as we can during Mass.
 
And I apologize for going off on the God/he rant here. I know this probably isn’t the right thread for that, but that’s one of my pet peeves with Catholicism, and when I saw that post, it just pushed a button. I’ll admit I’m one of those who say God vs he (as does our Priest) as much as we can during Mass.
I would dare to say that most of us post rants from time to time, that is part of the human nature and of the power of internet forums. It is very nice of you to admit to that and to move on.Thanks. 👍
 
My complaint about the new translation has nothing to do with it’s implication in my parish, but rather the translation itself. I fell it’s the Catholic Church taking another step backwards towards the pre-Vatican 2 Church. This might make my grandparents happy, but it’s distancing itself from my parents (who were in high school during V2) and completely alienating my generation (whom most of has never seen a real Latin mass before). The Church needs to realize it must move forward and appeal to my generation, or in 10, 15, 20 years when my grandparents generation has all passed on, there will be no one left in Churches. Why have I now “greatly sinned?” Why is it “through my fault x3?” Why is it my spirit and not my whole self? This is classic guilt and human conceived notions which drove much of my parents generation away in the 50’s (causing Vatican 2) and will continue to drive Catholics away today.

//end rant
I am an 18 year-old convert of less than one year, and I LOVE the new translation. I love the fact that it actually implants some guilt into peoples’ hearts, which is desperately needed in the Catholic world. I love the fact that it stresses unworthiness. I love the fact that we now confess “through my fault” three times. When I converted, I was, to put it bluntly, more than a little disappointed that the Church seemed so similar to what I was experiencing at the local Baptist place. Fortunately for me, though, I have the internet, and I have been pleasantly surprised that there is a rather large traditional Catholic community online.

I can honestly say that if my first mass was in Latin, with incense, bells, altar boys galore, an exacting priest in every respect, with a solid theological homily (even if I didn’t understand it at the time), my reaction would not have been, “EW! MEDIEVAL Catholic Church!” Rather, it would have been more like, “This is so cool! I want to be part of this. I wonder why they do this… I shall find out.”

Yes, I can say that I have felt a little “ripped off” at times when I witness Catholic “modernism.” I know that the Eucharist is the Eucharist regardless of its surroundings, but there is more to the Church than just making sure we receive the Eucharist.

I think that saying “our generation” (presumably meaning Generations X and Y) “doesn’t like” the new translation is a complete over-generalization. I, a young male, am elated to have gotten rid of that old Sacramentary and have it replaced by the new translation.
 
You should have heard of a similar word “Transubstatiion” in regards to the Eucharist.

Where the Substance of bread and wine cease and is replaced by the Substance of Christ.

The concept of “One in Being” is incorrect. It is a statement of existance. There is no existance apart from God, so just about everything is “One in Being” with the Father. The Keyboard you are typing on, the grass on the lawn etc…

Substance is a statement on the Nature of something. That characistics that set it apart from everything else.

While the grass on my lawn is “One in Being” with the Father, it is not of the same substance as the Father. It is not Divine.

Christ (as well as the Spirit) are Consubstantial with the Father, they share the same Divine Essence, the same Divine Nature.

So the old translation said nothing really about the Nature of Christ in relation to the Father, the new one does.
I am familiar with Transubstatiion. Maybe, “One in being” wasn’t the proper translation, maybe it should have been “one in the same as” or something else. My point is, the Mass should appeal to, and be clearly understood by the congregation. That’s why we say Mass in English and not Latin any more. When you throw these deep theological terms out, it goes over people heads, and they ultimately have no idea what they are praying.

What’s better, to pray what may be exactly, literally correct, or to pray in a way the person praying it understands. And keep in mind, that person may not be Catholic. Maybe they’re a Christmas/Easter person. Maybe they’re some other faith and attending a funeral or wedding Mass, or thinking of converting. And really, who cares if it’s the exact theological term? Am I less of a Catholic because I’ve said technically Jesus=God=my front lawn the first 33 years of my life? Or again, is it more important that I understand the concept that Jesus=God by “dumbing it down” to simpler English, even if it’s not theologically exact?
 
I am an 18 year-old convert of less than one year, and I LOVE the new translation. I love the fact that it actually implants some guilt into peoples’ hearts, which is desperately needed in the Catholic world. I love the fact that it stresses unworthiness. I love the fact that we now confess “through my fault” three times. When I converted, I was, to put it bluntly, more than a little disappointed that the Church seemed so similar to what I was experiencing at the local Baptist place. Fortunately for me, though, I have the internet, and I have been pleasantly surprised that there is a rather large traditional Catholic community online.

I can honestly say that if my first mass was in Latin, with incense, bells, altar boys galore, an exacting priest in every respect, with a solid theological homily (even if I didn’t understand it at the time), my reaction would not have been, “EW! MEDIEVAL Catholic Church!” Rather, it would have been more like, “This is so cool! I want to be part of this. I wonder why they do this… I shall find out.”

Yes, I can say that I have felt a little “ripped off” at times when I witness Catholic “modernism.” I know that the Eucharist is the Eucharist regardless of its surroundings, but there is more to the Church than just making sure we receive the Eucharist.

I think that saying “our generation” (presumably meaning Generations X and Y) “doesn’t like” the new translation is a complete over-generalization. I, a young male, am elated to have gotten rid of that old Sacramentary and have it replaced by the new translation.
It’s great to hear you have found your faith, and embrace the traditions of Catholicism. But sadly, I see you as more the exception than the rule. Most of my parish and family and friends don’t care for the new translation. (including a couple Priests I know). I look at the Confirmation aged kids at my parish, and out of the dozens that have gone through the program the past several years (we have a small innercity parish) there’s only a handful that you ever see in Church once they are confirmed. I went to a Catholic University and I’d wager when i started roughly 15-20 of my circle of friends were good, go to Mass weekly Catholics. By the time I graduated 4 years later, and through today 10 years later, it’s myself and maybe 3 or 4 others who still attend any kind of Catholic church. Same goes for my circle of Catholic high school friends. I’m sure my assumption is a bit of an over generalization, but I don’t think it’s as much of one as you believe it is.
 
I am familiar with Transubstatiion. Maybe, “One in being” wasn’t the proper translation, maybe it should have been “one in the same as” or something else. My point is, the Mass should appeal to, and be clearly understood by the congregation. That’s why we say Mass in English and not Latin any more. When you throw these deep theological terms out, it goes over people heads, and they ultimately have no idea what they are praying.

What’s better, to pray what may be exactly, literally correct, or to pray in a way the person praying it understands. And keep in mind, that person may not be Catholic. Maybe they’re a Christmas/Easter person. Maybe they’re some other faith and attending a funeral or wedding Mass, or thinking of converting. And really, who cares if it’s the exact theological term? Am I less of a Catholic because I’ve said technically Jesus=God=my front lawn the first 33 years of my life? Or again, is it more important that I understand the concept that Jesus=God by “dumbing it down” to simpler English, even if it’s not theologically exact?
The thing about it is, though, that I don’t subscribe to the belief that somehow, magically, because of the new translation, people won’t be able to understand the mass anymore. People are not stupid. Some are, in all honesty, to be sure, but most, most people are not. People still do understand the mass, even in its new translation, and that is not going to change. Will it perhaps take a bit more thinking? ABSOLUTELY! And what, pray tell, is wrong with that? It seems that with the old translation, the wording was so down-to-earth, so simple, that many people just went on “autopilot” at mass. The new translation forces you to think about what you’re saying, which cannot be denied is a good thing. The old translation was so banal and seemed so fabricated that it was hard to want to think about it. There was no emotive richness in it. It, in all honesty, seemed very hippy-ish in language, a product of the early Seventies.

I don’t even subscribe to the assertion that people don’t understand masses in Latin. I do. It took me a week to learn the entire Order of Mass (which isn’t very big) in Latin. I am no Latin expert, to be sure, but I can understand the mass in Latin.

I assure you, our people are not simpletons. They can still understand the mass. I might even go so far as to say that they will understand it better because it is more complex; there is actually substance there to latch on to, where as before, there was hardly any unless you really looked. I might also remind you that Latin masses were never suppressed. They were celebrated post-Vatican II, and still are. In fact, the number of masses celebrated in Latin, you might be interested to know, is actually growing! Deo gratias! I don’t know if they will ever again outnumber vernacular masses. Time will tell. But I do know that they are making a resurgence all across the English-speaking world and beyond.

I must say this, finally: we must not water-down or dumb-down the presentation of our Faith to apologize for our beliefs to a “Christmas and Easter Catholic” or a non-Catholic, in vain attempts at appealing to them. We must present the fullness of it to them, which is far more important than presenting it to anyone else. When we make our Faith more “accessible,” we actually start to ruin it by putting it on the level of, say, Protestantism, which it so clearly is not.
 
responding to pilots13, post #264:

Well, they do now (have an idea what they’re praying). After all of this ridiculous affected turmoil, everyone has been apprised of its meaning (if they couldn’t get it through the context anyway, which would be easy to do since they are aleady familiar with the old translation which they “understsand” (?).

All of the other languages have had sufficient translations of this word (“consubstantial) all along, it’s only English that has been corrected. In fact (and this is very important, and I’d be interested in your take on this), all of the other Christian have held to what we call the “new” translation”. Lutherans, etc… all either say “consubstantial” or “one in substance”, not “one in being”. Contrary to what you believe, the language DOES have to be theologically precise, that is the way our faith is preserved throughout the ages. The other translation did not convey the fullness of truth in this matter. If it needs to be explained to people, that’s what catechesis is for.
The word chosen has to be true right across the board, for the unlettered as well as the most educated theologian. Same for everyone.
 
I think that a lot of people in this forum are USA residents and they might not know or tend to forget that this translation is also unified across all the English speaking countries. This is a change from before where we had somehow different versions of the English translation.
 
“What’s better, to pray what may be exactly, literally correct, or to pray in a way the person praying it understands.”

Well, you have a lifetime to grow in your understanding of this one word that upsets you so. It’s used on a weekly basis for most Catholics, or daily depending on how often you go to Mass. Also, there’s always the dictionary. If you don’t have a good one, you obviously have a computer and can type in “consubstantial, definition of”.

Pilots13
" And keep in mind, that person may not be Catholic. Maybe they’re a Christmas/Easter person. Maybe they’re some other faith and attending a funeral or wedding Mass, or thinking of converting. "

Maybe this, maybe that. Are you really suggesting that those who are interested in converting would all of a sudden change their mind because there is a certain word used in the liturgy that they don’t understand? If that person is from another Christian denomination, they already are familiar with it, and maybe they can help explain it to you.

Anyone who only frequents Mass at Easter and Christmas probably won’t notice a thing.

How about this: maybe the Mass is being frequented by immigrants from various countries, who do not yet speak English at all. Hmmm…maybe we should use a universal language in that case, at least for the Kyrie, Sanctus and Agnus Dei ( as the Pope has suggested )… oh no… that might mean… oh horrors…LATIN!!!(and a bit of Greek).
 
pilots13;8644690:
“What’s better, to pray what may be exactly, literally correct, or to pray in a way the person praying it understands.”

Well, you have a lifetime to grow in your understanding of this one word that upsets you so. It’s used on a weekly basis for most Catholics, or daily depending on how often you go to Mass. Also, there’s always the dictionary. If you don’t have a good one, you obviously have a computer and can type in “consubstantial, definition of”.

Pilots13
" And keep in mind, that person may not be Catholic. Maybe they’re a Christmas/Easter person. Maybe they’re some other faith and attending a funeral or wedding Mass, or thinking of converting. "

Maybe this, maybe that. Are you really suggesting that those who are interested in converting would all of a sudden change their mind because there is a certain word used in the liturgy that they don’t understand? If that person is from another Christian denomination, they already are familiar with it, and maybe they can help explain it to you.

Anyone who only frequents Mass at Easter and Christmas probably won’t notice a thing.

How about this: maybe the Mass is being frequented by immigrants from various countries, who do not yet speak English at all. Hmmm…maybe we should use a universal language in that case, at least for the Kyrie, Sanctus and Agnus Dei ( as the Pope has suggested )… oh no… that might mean… oh horrors…LATIN!!!(and a bit of Greek).
Then lets go back to Latin! But don’t be shocked when the American branch of the Catholic Church becomes like the European one. Or you see attendance #'s drop in churches like you did in the 60’s. Defend the traditional Latin, the wordy more authentic translation, many Catholics had never heard before last weekend.

My point isn’t to be hung up on one term or even a handful of them, but rather that I feel the new missal is trending in the wrong direction, backwards. The final track of REM’s last album had the line “20th Century collapse into now,” meaning it’s time to realize we aren’t living in the 20th century (or the 16th when the Latin Mass was created) but rather 10 years into the 21st. And it’s time for everyone to collapse into now, and if you don’t, then don’t be surprised when society leaves you behind.

By the way, why does the Mass have to follow the Latin Mass? It’s only 500 years old. They used different Masses the first 1500. Why can’t we use a different Mass now? Why can’t there be wording differences between English and Spanish? I understand standing by the dogma of the Church, but if the Spanish say one phrase and the English say a slightly different one, why does that matter?
 
The old translation was more to the common vernacular. “Slang” to use a very loose term. (Hence why it was “One in being” vs “consubstantial.” I had never heard of the word before this new translation. So I looked it up in the dictionary: “of the same substance” aka, one in being) They worked most of the “Spirit” stuff out and replaced it with “you” because people can relate to praying for, or God being with, themselves vs being with their spirit or soul and almost not caring about the human form. I’ve seen old bulletins from my parish form pre-Vatican 2 and it’s all about saving your soul, and very little about the human person that soul is part of. I for one feel that if I’m praying for myself or for “you” that I’m praying for your whole person, body, soul, spirit, all of it. The original Latin text goes back to an era when that’s all the Church taught: you must do this and this to save your soul or save your spirit!

My complaint about the new translation has nothing to do with it’s implication in my parish, but rather the translation itself. I fell it’s the Catholic Church taking another step backwards towards the pre-Vatican 2 Church. This might make my grandparents happy, but it’s distancing itself from my parents (who were in high school during V2) and completely alienating my generation (whom most of has never seen a real Latin mass before). The Church needs to realize it must move forward and appeal to my generation, or in 10, 15, 20 years when my grandparents generation has all passed on, there will be no one left in Churches. Why have I now “greatly sinned?” Why is it “through my fault x3?” Why is it my spirit and not my whole self? This is classic guilt and human conceived notions which drove much of my parents generation away in the 50’s (causing Vatican 2) and will continue to drive Catholics away today.

//end rant
The wording was inaccurate or incomplete. It did not say what the Church wanted it to say. While those who speak the Romance Languages were saying correctly, English speakers were saying only parts of it.

Go back and read my post on this. I believe it’s # 237.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I am an 18 year-old convert of less than one year, and I LOVE the new translation. I love the fact that it actually implants some guilt into peoples’ hearts, which is desperately needed in the Catholic world. I love the fact that it stresses unworthiness. I love the fact that we now confess “through my fault” three times. When I converted, I was, to put it bluntly, more than a little disappointed that the Church seemed so similar to what I was experiencing at the local Baptist place. Fortunately for me, though, I have the internet, and I have been pleasantly surprised that there is a rather large traditional Catholic community online.

I can honestly say that if my first mass was in Latin, with incense, bells, altar boys galore, an exacting priest in every respect, with a solid theological homily (even if I didn’t understand it at the time), my reaction would not have been, “EW! MEDIEVAL Catholic Church!” Rather, it would have been more like, “This is so cool! I want to be part of this. I wonder why they do this… I shall find out.”

Yes, I can say that I have felt a little “ripped off” at times when I witness Catholic “modernism.” I know that the Eucharist is the Eucharist regardless of its surroundings, but there is more to the Church than just making sure we receive the Eucharist.

I think that saying “our generation” (presumably meaning Generations X and Y) “doesn’t like” the new translation is a complete over-generalization. I, a young male, am elated to have gotten rid of that old Sacramentary and have it replaced by the new translation.
👍 as 46 year old post VII I totally agree with you.
 
By the way, why does the Mass have to follow the Latin Mass? It’s only 500 years old. They used different Masses the first 1500. Why can’t we use a different Mass now? Why can’t there be wording differences between English and Spanish? I understand standing by the dogma of the Church, but if the Spanish say one phrase and the English say a slightly different one, why does that matter?
You’re confusing “Latin mass” with the “Extraordinary Form of the mass.”

Before 1969, the mass was celebrated almost exclusively in Latin, according to a missal only slightly altered from its release in 1570 (the particular edition was actually released by HH John XXIII in 1962). In 1969, HH Paul VI released a new missal, in Latin, with the allowance that it could be translated into other languages. This is the missal we are now using, albeit with some changes, an English translation of it (the particular edition was released in 2002 by HH John Paul II, but is almost the same as the 1969 edition).

Pope Benedict calls the pre-1969 mass the Extraordinary Form of the mass, and the post-1969 mass the Ordinary Form of the mass. They are both completely licit to celebrate, and many priests do celebrate both Forms. It is a common misconception to call the pre-1969 mass the “Latin mass,” since the post-1969 mass can be, and is, celebrated in Latin. Their technical terms are the Extraordinary Form and the Ordinary Form, respectively. It would be good for all Catholics to remember these terms, because they are here to stay.

The “Latin mass” is not only 500 years old. Mass has been celebrated in Latin almost exclusively for well over 1500 years. It is true that the earliest masses were celebrated in Greek, but even then, there were masses celebrated in Latin. Greek waned, and Latin took over as the (almost) exclusive language of the mass. The Extraordinary Form of the mass is 441 or so years old. The Ordinary Form of the mass is 42 or so years old. Both Forms are celebrated in Latin. In fact, the authoritative texts of both Forms, (even the OF, the “Vatican II mass”) is in Latin, from whence come all the translations.

Just wanted to clear that up. The terminology is important because it can be a bit confusing.

Wording differences are very bad, because using words is how we express things in the world. When we have the Spanish saying things one way, and the English saying them in another way, the meaning is inevitably different. If we were perfect beings, we could preserve meaning exactly from one language to another, even if the wording is different, but we are not perfect beings. Therefore, we must be as exact as possible in the translations so that we don’t end up believing different things. I can say one thing several different ways, but inevitably, the meaning is different each way I phrase it. That cannot be allowed to happen with something so vastly important as the mass.

I’ll say it again: when we start changing the way things are worded, meaning is lost. That is one of the conditions of being an imperfect human. Therefore, we must be as careful and exact as possible in translating to ensure every Catholic everywhere, as much as possible, believes the same thing.

I once read on this forum a post by someone that said that if you go to a mass in German, then one in English, you’d think that the congregations were of two different religions. That was before the new translation. Our new translation is not only in line with the Latin, but also the other translations. We can’t phrase things much differently in the various languages, otherwise we risk becoming disjointed and having different beliefs.
 
opus101;8644927:
Then lets go back to Latin! But don’t be shocked when the American branch of the Catholic Church becomes like the European one. Or you see attendance #'s drop in churches like you did in the 60’s.

I wasn’t suggesting that we go “back to Latin”. I was just trying to point out that there are millions of “maybe” situations, and the Church is not translating with the view of accomodating every unique situation that comes its way. Anyway, it would be impossible, the accomodations would be contradictory because of all of the different situations/people/mindsets.

That said, the use of Latin for many parts of the Mass has never gone by the wayside anyway. The Pope has suggested , in this global society of ours, that everyone be familiar with at least a minimum of it.

Pilot 13
"By the way, why does the Mass have to follow the Latin Mass? It’s only 500 years old. They used different Masses the first 1500. Why can’t we use a different Mass now? Why can’t there be wording differences between English and Spanish? I understand standing by the dogma of the Church, but if the Spanish say one phrase and the English say a slightly different one, why does that matter?
"

Because of all of the reasons that people have been putting forth! The Catholic Church is a universal Church, and is the home of much “diversity”, but the CREED is what unifies us. “Slightly different” words mean a LOT as far as theological precision goes, it really DOES matter. If you don’t understand, then study Latin, linguistics, Theology and the Catechism for a few years, then see if you still feel the same way.

Latin has been used in the Church since 250 A.D. Can you clarify what you mean about the the first 1500 years? I’d also be interested in your historical sources.

I don’t understand how to post these comments. Some of my comments end up in the shaded area and some don’t. Sorry, I guess I have to read up on it.
 
And it’s time for everyone to collapse into now, and if you don’t, then don’t be surprised when society leaves you behind.
Society has already left the Church behind. Society is in decay. Society is in a morass of confusion and misery. But thanks be to God we have the solid rock of His Church - a bulwark never failing. Look at the protestant denominations that have “collapsed into now” by embracing every form of perverse lifestyle and calling it normal. They’ve taken Christ off of the cross and hung a rainbow flag in his place. Those are the churches that are crumbling. God promised us that the gates of hell would never prevail against his Church. I’ll take Him at his word and not worry about the whims of a fallen society.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top