So how do you know that Catholicism is correct?

[mozart-250]

Well, skipping over the whole journey to Christianity itself, and STARTING with the presupposition of Christianity’s validity, it becomes rather easy:

Thank you St_Aloysius.

You (along with many Catholics) seem to assume (probably from your interpretation of Matthew 16 which is provided to you by your church) that one denomination out there must be absolutely correct. I’ll respect that, but I personally don’t see why I should start with that assumption.

 

[mozart-250]

mozart-250
Have you read the writings of the Early Church Fathers? Some of them were taught by the apostles themselves and some of them were taught by those who had known the apostles. When I speak with converts to the Roman Catholic faith the reason that I hear the most for their conversion this that they read the Early Church Fathers.

Actually I have. Some Iranaeus, Clement, and Ignatius I believe. I prefer those who are nearest to the apostles.

However I have not systematically studied the early church writings and doubt whether I will have the opportunity to do so. So I do have some self doubts about my ability to form definitive conclusions based on their writings.

 

[mozart-250]

Here’s how I think about it:

1. Either 1 church is right or no church has it all together
2. Only 2 churches claim to be THE Church: Catholic and Orthodox
3. Therefore, either all churches are created equal, the Catholic Church is THE Church, or the Orthodox Church is THE Church.
4. Either God established 1 Church to guide us into all Truth or God figured we didn’t need to have 1 Church to guide us into all Truth.
5. God values Truth. “Ye shall know the Truth and the Truth will set ye free.”
6. “I came so they might have life and might have it abundantly.” God wants us to be complete Christians, to be radically transformed, have the Truth, not a mixture of truth and error.
7. Thus, either the Catholic Church is THE Church or the Orthodox Church is THE Church.
8. Historically speaking, the Catholic Church seems to make more sense, not to mention it has done a better job, in my head, of spreading the Good News to all nations.
9. The Catholic Church is the Church.

That’s just my :twocents: May God bless you on your journey.

Love is Patient.

Hi:
I have thought of a few additional possibilities at I think point 4 in your progression.

One possibility is that yes God established one church to help in the process of guiding us into all truth. But that does not mean that it is impossible for this church to be wrong (I have always separated in my mind being an authority, being correct, and being impossible to being incorrect)…particularly if the church departs from the will of God in other areas. (I have always thought it to be a great disconnect that at the same time the Catholics and Protestants were frying the Anabaptists that God at the same time was speaking in “impossible to be wrong mode” to the Catholics as they were anathematizing the Protestants at Trent).

Another possibility I have thought of is that yes God established one church, but a consequence of the church dividing upon itself is that at least at the present time he favors nobody. Thus He can not give everybody the ability to be 100 percent correct.

If I think hard enough I am sure I can come up with other possibilities at that point. I guess I am a hard sell in convincing that one of the gazillion denominations out there must be the correct one.

 

[mozart-250]

The Catholic Church still stands and has not split!

It hasn’t? If I understand history correctly, when the term Catholic was first used there was “one” church…that being the universal church. Now there are several independent ecclesiastical organizations.

Somewhere along the line some division must have happened.

 

[mozart-250]

I’m still answering the same original question. I know that Catholicism is the truth through faith. I needn’t know what anyone else might believe or why. For me, the answer is the gift of faith.

I’ll respect that.

 

[mozart-250]

I disagree. If “preferability” can be established based on stronger claims, then you are in a better place than you would be with a “less preferable” option. You would have moved from lesser to greater certainty. That’s a good thing.

Here is what I mean by preferability not being an option.

In principle I agree. And in ProtestantLand that has been my experience.

In the town where I live (actually the neighboring town since my community is tiny) there are 8-10 Protestant churches. None of these claim to be the “one true church”. None of these claim that it is impossible for them to be incorrect.

Therefore I can look at these 8-10 churches and make a very subjective judgement call as to whom is preferable knowing that the preferable one does not claim perrfection.

I wish I could add the 2 Catholic churches to this list. However the Catholic churches makes claims for itself that the Protestant churches do not. They claim to be the one true church (and that Protestants are heretics). They have dogma that they insist that it is impossible that they are wrong on. They would insist that I believe everything that it teaches is true should I ever be interested in being Catholic. So believing the Catholic church to be preferable to the Protestants does not cut it if I do not at the same time concur with the claims the Catholic church makes for itself (and implicitely for the non-Catholic churches). It is an all-or-nothing proposition.

In my mind anyway the loftier the claim is, the greater the verification of the claim must be.

 

[mozart-250]

Good grief. You mentioned the word “Y***ee” in a post to a Red Sox fan? You live dangerously!

No problem. I chalk it up to “invincible ignorance”.

 

[mozart-250]

I disagree with the idea that Catholicism and Orthodoxy cancel each other out. We hold in common nearly all of the deposit of faith and we both have valid Holy Orders. Even within the Catholic Church, our Eastern Churches hold their own distinctly Eastern beliefs, disciplines and practices.

The separation of East and West, at its root, has a far grearter political-historical component than a theological component.

But there is infallible dogma that you must believe as a Catholic that the Orthodox just disagree with you all on. On that basis I have concluded that the two faiths are similar, but at the same time they are mutually exclusive (two similar entities can be mutually exclusive).

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Here is what I mean by preferability not being an option.

In principle I agree. And in ProtestantLand that has been my experience.

In the town where I live (actually the neighboring town since my community is tiny) there are 8-10 Protestant churches. None of these claim to be the “one true church”. None of these claim that it is impossible for them to be incorrect.

Therefore I can look at these 8-10 churches and make a very subjective judgement call as to whom is preferable knowing that the preferable one does not claim perrfection.

I wish I could add the 2 Catholic churches to this list. However the Catholic churches makes claims for itself that the Protestant churches do not. They claim to be the one true church (and that Protestants are heretics). They have dogma that they insist that it is impossible that they are wrong on. They would insist that I believe everything that it teaches is true should I ever be interested in being Catholic. So believing the Catholic church to be preferable to the Protestants does not cut it if I do not at the same time concur with the claims the Catholic church makes for itself (and implicitely for the non-Catholic churches). It is an all-or-nothing proposition.

In my mind anyway the loftier the claim is, the greater the verification of the claim must be.

I do not claim to be a theologian or a scholar of the early church but it seems to me that the apostles and those that followed sat in committee and reached agreements they did not just say your wrong and state teaching in a new way. Your statement is a great argument on why the Protestant churches are incorrect and though you may find human error in the Catholic Church ( which I believe is the reason for the schism of the EO and the inability to reach Luther) It is and remains the Church Christ found as you point out in Matthew 16. You make the argument that if you don’t like something in a particular church you just go to another or start another. I don’t the thats what God had in mind. You have made the case for catholicism better that any catholic on here thank you.

Peace in the Lord

Scott

 

[St_Aloysius]

Thank you St_Aloysius.

You (along with many Catholics) seem to assume (probably from your interpretation of Matthew 16 which is provided to you by your church) that one denomination out there must be absolutely correct. I’ll respect that, but I personally don’t see why I should start with that assumption.

You’re right. But as Christ did establish a Church that he said would prevail o’er the gates of Hades, I can’t but wonder why he would do so only to watch it crumble to nothing, be hopelessly divided, or corrupted with false doctrines.

Then again, you probably have your own interpretation of Matthew 16… But then and there again, that makes me think of another point: Why would Christ give us the holy Scriptures and say, “Interpret as the Spirit sees fit,” and leave us in the inevitable state of anarchy? And since he clearly wouldn’t do this, it’s logical that he gave us the Church, the “pillar and support of the truth” (1 Tim. 3:15), to interpret and teach in light of Tradition. And if the Church isn’t infallible, she is liable to teach errors–meaning however else you cut it, we’re in a bad place.

What’s your take on it?

 

[mercygate]

It hasn’t? If I understand history correctly, when the term Catholic was first used there was “one” church…that being the universal church. Now there are several independent ecclesiastical organizations.

Somewhere along the line some division must have happened.

I believe you are correct.

Even in the New Testament there is evidence that looney gnostic heresies were contaminating the kerygma and forming their own sects. By the year 200 “Christian” pseudo-gospels appear on the scene (you know, Mary Magdalene, Thomas, Judas, etc) that were used by these groups.

The point is not that there was no other expression of Christianity thant that of the catholic Church, but that the Catholic Church is the Church that preserved the kerygma through Apostolic fellowship.

 

[mercygate]

Thank you St_Aloysius.

You (along with many Catholics) seem to assume (probably from your interpretation of Matthew 16 which is provided to you by your church) that one denomination out there must be absolutely correct. I’ll respect that, but I personally don’t see why I should start with that assumption.

Mozart, many non-Catholics come to the Church because Scripture forced them to deal honestly with Matthew 16, and not because they were fed the Catholic interpretation. Many of us resisted that interpretation mightily. (Raising hand here.)

And, just for a point of order here, the Catholic Church is NOT a denomination. You make it sound as if it is just another Christian ecclesial organization on more or less the same footing with any other.

 

[mercygate]

Here is what I mean by preferability not being an option.

In principle I agree. And in ProtestantLand that has been my experience.

In the town where I live (actually the neighboring town since my community is tiny) there are 8-10 Protestant churches. None of these claim to be the “one true church”. None of these claim that it is impossible for them to be incorrect.

Therefore I can look at these 8-10 churches and make a very subjective judgement call as to whom is preferable knowing that the preferable one does not claim perrfection.

I wish I could add the 2 Catholic churches to this list. However the Catholic churches makes claims for itself that the Protestant churches do not. They claim to be the one true church (and that Protestants are heretics). They have dogma that they insist that it is impossible that they are wrong on. They would insist that I believe everything that it teaches is true should I ever be interested in being Catholic. So believing the Catholic church to be preferable to the Protestants does not cut it if I do not at the same time concur with the claims the Catholic church makes for itself (and implicitely for the non-Catholic churches). It is an all-or-nothing proposition.

In my mind anyway the loftier the claim is, the greater the verification of the claim must be.

Exactly. That’s why I’m here. Not that the trip was easy.

 

[onmyknees]

It hasn’t? If I understand history correctly, when the term Catholic was first used there was “one” church…that being the universal church. Now there are several independent ecclesiastical organizations.

Somewhere along the line some division must have happened.

Mozart-250
We are still The One, Holy, Catholic, (catholic means universal) and Apostolic church as we say every Sunday in the profession of our faith. The other independent organizations did not split. They left the One True Church started by Jesus Christ with the pope as the authority. The Orthodox do not recognize the pope. Many Episcopalians priests along with many other Christians have come back to the Catholic Church because they came to understand the necessity of the papal authority.